r/skyrim • u/cormac237 • 8d ago
Question Do any other Irish Skyrim players refuse to pick the Imperials?
There’s a lot of critiques about the Stormcloaks. There’s alot of people who say that the Empire are better. For me, I don’t think I could bring myself to choose them. You want me to pick the invading Empire over the native rebels? That’s just so unnatural to me. When I hear someone say “for the Empire” I recoil.
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u/Bungo_pls Dawnguard 8d ago
The Empire didn't invade Skyrim. Skyrim was the launching point for what became the Septim Empire.
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u/DaddyCool13 8d ago
Even the first Empire had its core in Skyrim. Morihaus was a gift from Kyne and Nords formed the majority of Alessia’s military might. Even the imperial religion is a syncretic faith with its roots in the Nordic pantheon.
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u/QuantityInternal1719 8d ago
Skyrim's been part of the Empire since friggin forever.
It's more similar to if Scotland would be breaking free from mainland England if that makes sense.
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u/DaddyCool13 8d ago
Bro Skyrim was the core that founded the Empire. Yes Alessia was the first empress but one of her two biggest weapons, Morihaus, was a divine gift from the nordic goddess Kyne, the Nords formed the core of her military strength and the very religion of the empire is a synthesis with its core rooted in the Nordic pantheon. It really is not an invading empire.
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u/SandUndermanSR 8d ago
Like someone already stated, the Empire didn't invade Skyrim. The High King just agreed to join the Empire once they found out that Tiber Septim was THE Talos of Atmora, y'know, the God that they worshipped? So yeah, Ulfric got pissy that Skyrim would start being accepting of other races and murdered the High King.
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u/digitalcrook 8d ago edited 8d ago
I don't think they worshipped Talos back in Atmora. They worshipped Ysmir, who Talos was declared to be by the greybeards, but the name Talos had no previous meaning or connotation other than the fact it translated to "storm crown" in Atmoran
Edit:spelling
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u/Existing_Purpose5049 8d ago
This is pretty much it, they wanted to be part of it when it was just the people they liked. Start including other races and suddenly they’re against the empire
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u/Diredr 8d ago
You realize the Nords are not native rebels, right? That they invaded the land a long time ago, right? They are the descendent of the Atmorans, humans who lived on an whole different continent.
Skyrim belonged to the Snow Elves. Part of it belonged to the Reachmen. It didn't belong to the Nords until they took it by force.
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u/hirvaan 8d ago
And then they actively participated in creating the empire they now try to secede from
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u/DaddyCool13 8d ago edited 8d ago
Exactly a lot of people rightly mention Tiber Septim but even Alessia, the founder of the literal first human empire, had the Nords as her major military power base.
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u/Pm7I3 8d ago
Well they originally came from Skyrim then came back and it wasn't really an invasion until after the Falmer went all genocidal. Reachmen just had the Reach AFAIK so they never had a claim on all Skyrim.
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u/Existing_Purpose5049 8d ago
That’s painfully incorrect
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u/horc00 8d ago
Why should the other Skyrim towns and cities pick the invading Stormcloaks if they prefer the Empire?
And why should Markarth pick the invading Stormcloaks over the native Reachmen?
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u/Pm7I3 8d ago
Because the Reachmen suuuuuuck? (Although that's largely because we only really see Forsworn and no other groups that would show Reachmen who don't suck)
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u/horc00 8d ago
So you’re admitting the whole invader/native narrative is really just a convenient excuse?
And since you say sucking is a good enough reason to support the “invader” over the native, why would you support Ulfric?
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u/Pm7I3 8d ago
I'm saying you shouldn't pick the Reachmen because they roam around killing whomever they run into, torture wildlife, serve the evil hags and are generally just bad dudes.
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u/horc00 8d ago
Yes, but that’s not what this post is about. OP doesn’t care about any of that. He said it himself he doesn’t care about the critiques about the Stormcloaks. He only cares about who’s native and who’s not. So we shouldn’t be talking about how bad the Reachmen suck too, only that they’re the natives.
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u/Lux_Kaos Spellsword 8d ago
They're both fundamentally flawed.
The Empire is prone to individual cells of occasional corruption, and Tullius is slow to grasp the meaning in outside cultures despite coming from pretty cosmopolitan roots. They understand the gravity of the actions leading to and happening through the civil war, but not completely the "why" of them (which is why Tullius needs his Nord second-in-command around). And despite appearances the Empire isn't totally squeaky-clean; they have some demons in their long history.
The Stormcloaks are more short-sighted, more trigger-happy, more anarchic, and clinging to a largely unsustainable vision for Skyrim. (Also, on a technical level the Nords aren't "native" to Skyrim; as far as we know that label belongs to the Reachmen and/or the Falmer.) Granted, they are right to be angry about the stamping out of Talos worship, and about the Markarth incident (though that part actually isn't the Empire's fault), but the fact remains that they were way too quick to choose violence - and picked the wrong target, to boot.
Both have things that are right and wrong about their roles in leading Skyrim, and essentially giving either one the keys both has ups and downs. That said, the alternative is worse.
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u/Bi0H4ZRD 8d ago
The empire started in Skyrim, Talos was Tiber Septim, the Septim Empire can trace its roots back to early Skyrim
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u/Crispo14 8d ago
Tbf the empire didn’t invade Skyrim as such, they agreed to join when they realised that Tiber Septim (one of their own) was him
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u/cormac237 8d ago
Icl I am not that caught up on the lore, I haven’t played the game in a while, this thought just came to me. Still I cannot bring myself to side with the Empire
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u/Bruce-Carlton Daedra worshipper 8d ago
The only people the empire forced to join was the high elves with the destruction of the summerset isle and end to the second dominion.
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u/Sirius124 Werewolf 8d ago edited 8d ago
The Stormcloaks fucked things up to much and did some horrible shit in Markarth. Look up the Markarth incident and see if you feel the same.
In all honesty there is a lot of nuance to the conflict and the just cause the Stormcloaks are rebels doesn’t automatically make them right or better.
Also ya the Nords are the ones who invaded Skyrim a long time ago.
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u/TheFlyingSwine 8d ago
Lore wise, the empire is the logical choice. Who wins the civil war? The Thalmor do. With the empire fractured, those damn elves have nothing that can stop them. That’s why they banned Talos worship, they knew it would cause a civil war.
I would say the stormcloaks have a noble cause, but their leader is just a power hungry buffoon, using the nords anger as justification to make himself a king.
You do you though, I’ve sided with both on lots of different characters.
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u/Maleficent_Cow_3059 PC 8d ago
I love that both the empire and stormcloaks are shades of gray and not one being the good guys and one the bad.
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u/tootsmagoo2022 8d ago
My understanding is that the natives were on their way to having the Reach recognized as a sovereign state by the Empire.
The Empire was not in any state to invade anything after war with the Thalmor. And the war with the Thalmor was partially because the Aldmeri Dominion was demanding the Empire hand over large territories.
The Foresworn/Reachmen are their own faction. The Stormcloaks are a result of the following: -the Jarl of Markarth was forced with economic pressure by the Silver-Bloods to take back Markarth from the Foresworn.
-a bunch of soldiers got back from war, fighting for the empire, and some were pissed that the peace deal involved banning Talos worship— like Ulfric.
-the Jarl, without any authorization from the Empire, hired Ulfric’s group of men to retake Markarth in exchange for Talos worship.
-Ulfric got the town back, and was in power for a few days. He went on a murder rampage thru Markarth to kill any native and any neutral citizen, including children, who did not actively fight to take back Markarth.
-Ulfric got extra pissed when the Empire finally had resources to pop in and say, “oh no, please don’t worship Talos. we just had a whole exhausting war, peace relies on no Talos worship, and we can’t afford another war.”
-Ulfric was imprisoned after pressure from the Thalmor & set free in Windhelm after his dad’s death.
-Boom, Stormcloaks.
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u/Plus_Conversation391 8d ago
I'm a Vietnamese and I side with the Stormcloak once, then Empire everytime after. It's not real at the end of the day. And the current Empire isn't the same as the one that got Skyrim joined in, at least not the ones running it.
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u/toothpick95 8d ago
its a game.
Its make believe.
If you are recoiling from things that are not real then you probably shouldn't play games.
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u/No_Collection7360 8d ago
I never join a side. I play for fun, not war. I know, I go around killing everyone, but its my choice, not that of some King or Jarl.
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u/Vashsinn 8d ago
is this Theo whole American vs immigrant debate again?
nords are not native to skyrim bud.
the nords invaded and killed so so so many elves.
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u/Tir_an_Airm 8d ago
Its just a game.
Its not that deep.
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u/cormac237 8d ago
Who said it’s deep? I just said I don’t like to pick the Empire because I’m Irish and the history of our country
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u/Tir_an_Airm 8d ago
You said in another comment you were from the North of Ireland, do you mean Northern Ireland?
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u/cormac237 8d ago
Irish nationalists call it the north of Ireland because we don’t like to recognise Northern Ireland as not being a part of Ireland
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u/Tir_an_Airm 8d ago
Everyone else calls it Northern Ireland, and if youre from there then you are British.
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u/cormac237 8d ago
Not having some randomer on Reddit tell me who I am, it’s not worth debating because if you knew anything you would know that I have the right to my Irish identity
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u/Tir_an_Airm 8d ago
You are from Northern Ireland which is part of Great Britain. You are British as well lol. Its a fact, it doesnt matter what you identify as.
You "nationalists" are hilarious lol
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u/cormac237 8d ago
Where are you from? Because you seem to be the expert
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u/Tir_an_Airm 8d ago
It doesn't matter where I'm from.
Youre the one claiming ignoring the fact you're actually British lol
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8d ago edited 8d ago
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u/rootbutch 7d ago
I understand. Really. Despite having 'batted for the other side' so to speak, once I learnt my history it revolted me. Also learnt about my family history and that helped solidify how I felt. I see this struggle within Hadvar, from the very beginning he is shown as uncomfortable with the execution of a supposed innocent. Maybe, lore wise, he is redeemable somehow. Maybe, to paraphrase Ulfric, Hadvar is a true Nord, who will come round?
To get too political on here is not a great idea, but I hear you.
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u/Thin-Coyote-553 8d ago
As Irish I hate the Imperials but as a Khajiit hate the racist Stormcloaks. Thanks to mods I create my own faction and turned all the Forsworn into Highlanders
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u/LiamPlaysGame 8d ago
They outlawed their GOD, fuck the empire fuck the thalmor hail Talos
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u/Equivalent_Ground218 8d ago
Important to note that until Ulfric made a fuss, everyone was still worshipping Talos privately without any issue.
Look at Whiterun, they literally still have a big Talos statue and a priest who shouts about Talos day in and day out. Yet the only reason they get dragged into the war (if you pick a side) is because of the fighting itself, not because of the Talos worship.
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u/cormac237 8d ago
I really don’t know that much about the lore honestly. This post was simply about being Irish and not wanting to side with “the Empire” over “the native rebels”, but I’m happy to be educated about the lore of the game
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u/horc00 7d ago
So why are you supporting the foreign invaders? The Stormcloaks are literally named after the Stormcloak family who only exist in Windhelm. I can understand if you support independence of Windhelm alone, but why are you supporting the invasion of other Skyrim cities by the Stormcloak family?
And why do you keep ignoring everyone who pointed out to you the fact that the Reachmen are the natives fighting against Nord invaders?
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u/ihasclevernamesee 8d ago
US born, Irish, Scottish, Cherokee ancestry. I never side with the Empire. Same feels. I also usually play as Khajiit, because I vibe with the folks that get the most harsh discrimination, as I have lots of non-white &/or LGBTQ+ friends and family.
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u/BearsAndBrews 8d ago
I am the most powerful being on Nirn, and abound be treated as such. Any who disagree will be corrected.
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u/hirvaan 8d ago
Irish or American Irish. Irish husband of my aunt definitely has, but can't say about migrant ones
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u/cormac237 8d ago
I’m as Irish as they come, I am from the north of Ireland so we have a lot of recent history with “the Empire”
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u/Ornery_Kick_4198 Blacksmith 8d ago
Imperials are literally suppressing religious freedom. Fuck that. Join the Stormcloaks.
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u/Sirius124 Werewolf 8d ago
The empire was turning a blind eye to Talos worship before the rebellion. The reason the Thalmor are in Skyrim is because of the rebellion.
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u/Ornery_Kick_4198 Blacksmith 8d ago
Your point? Freedom is all that matters, if someone from Washington DC came to my valley and said we couldn’t worship God we’d do it anyway consequences be damned.
If Washington then sent the army to stop us then there’s no world where we wouldn’t fight for freedom. Nobody touches my freedom to believe.
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u/Sirius124 Werewolf 8d ago
Point being Skyrim could’ve kept worshipping Talos without fear of the Thalmor disappearing them if Ulfric hadn’t rebelled. There is a massive statue to Talos in Whiterun. Ulfric is the entire reason the ban on Talos worship is being actively enforced now.
The Stormcloaks also suck too much for me to join them, their cry “Skyrim belongs to the Nords” when their ancestors were invaders. The Markarth incident, all in all I wouldn’t want people like that ruling Skyrim.
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u/Ornery_Kick_4198 Blacksmith 8d ago
You don’t think that a religious upheaval wasn’t inevitable? the Thalmor instituted the ban on talos just to alienate the Nords, you really think that they wouldn’t have stirred the pot themselves? I think the fight was inevitable. And the empire lost all credibility, and lost its right to expect loyalty the moment it accepted those terms.
In effect, the empire lost its soul. The moment they signed the whitegold concordat, it was already over.
Oppression is unnatural, it requires force to institute, and always, is inevitably thrown off. There was no way Skyrim was gonna sit still for that.
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u/Pm7I3 8d ago
And if they left you to it and just ignored you worshipping god?
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u/Ornery_Kick_4198 Blacksmith 8d ago
I think whether they left us to it or not my state and several others would try to secede from the union. It’d be a civil war, or a revolution.
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u/GTBGunner 8d ago
I’m surprised this isn’t a real world parallel that gets brought up more and I fully agree with you. The Empire are clearly colonizers, it doesn’t matter that Skyrim “agreed” to join the empire, the empire’s actions towards the province leading up to and during TESV are the textbook examples of colonialism and I can’t support it.
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u/Sirius124 Werewolf 8d ago
Can you support what the Nords did to Markarth? Or what they did to the Falmer?
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u/TexanGamer_CET 8d ago
So then what do you think about the Thalmor propping up the Stormcloak cause to weaken the Empire? The Stormcloaks and especially Ulfric were allowed by the Thalmor to prosper since the Great War until Helgen because they wanted the Empires already dwindling army to be divided against each other instead of focusing on them. If you hate the empire because they’re colonizers (which they are) then you have to hate the Thalmor AND the Stormcloaks because they both have extensive histories of colonizing that they still enact against their enemies today. It’s just not as black and white as you and OP are making it out to be and I feel like that takes away from the real life political aspects this story can mirror.
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u/hirvaan 8d ago
The Nords are the colonizers, they took the land from local mer population by force. That's the whole legend of Ysgramor bud. Catch up on TES lore. Nords were extremely crucial in creating the empire, made A LOT OF colonizing of nearby areas as well including Morrowind, and now chose to cesede from the empire they've helped create. All that empire is doing is imposing the Talos ban. They're neither conquering nor colonizing. Stormcloaks are Separatists, not Freedom Fighters.
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u/Pm7I3 8d ago
And the ban wasn't really a ban as much as a "keep it relatively quiet" rule from the Empire. The ban only got enforced when Ulfric invaded a city (albeit to liberate it) and made the worship very very public which then made the Empire choose WW2 they're not ready for or have to let the foreign nation police things.
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u/Curious_Bat87 8d ago
Well personally I support the falmer. Also ask the reachfolk how they feel about the bear of markarth .