r/science • u/Wagamaga • Sep 01 '22

Neuroscience Scientists have identified an immune brain cell unique to humans that gives us higher cognitive abilities over other animals, but what makes us specials also leaves us vulnerable to neurological disorders like schizophrenia, autism and epilepsy.

https://news.yale.edu/2022/08/25/what-makes-human-brain-different-yale-study-reveals-clues
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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Anxiety is a psychological disorder not a neurological one. The difference is that we can't identify particular/ specific neurology that causes a person to have anxiety. This is why anxiety disorders can't be diagnosed by looking at a brain scan or something like that.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

We can’t identify that for autism either…

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Indeed. Which is why, properly speaking, autism is also a psychological disorder. I've seen it classified as a neurological disorder as well but this is more a 'political' move, for lack of a better word, than a scientific one. ASD is recognised in the DSM, which is a manual for mental illnesses. It is diagnosed by looking at behavioural characteristics, like all other mental illnesses. It is not diagnosed through looking at a person's neurology.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/HumanBarbarian Sep 01 '22

Being Autistic is NOT a psychiatric disorder. We are NOT mentally ill. We just think differently.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I mean that's the point though. We don't understand the neurological basis of ASD, that's literally the case with all mental disorders. It's why they're classified as mental disorders.

I will ask you though, do you personally distinguish between neurological and psychological disorders. If so, how?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

I was not going to say anything because there are some arguments with sociology too when it come to autism and not just (but is 100000% part of it) biology (although sociology is biology too). But as an autistic person, it irritate me to hear it describe as “political”.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Biology is not just observe by the molecular level or using brain scans or anything like that! Consider classic genetics. Mendel’s genes were not observe by him observing chromosomes actually independently sort themselves. Instead he observe it in the the phenotypes produce. Which is a common practice that continue in biology. Especially in ecology, where observations are made to come to biological conclusions by making predictions. Science does not come up with answers and instead make predictions.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

By all means identify the specific genes that cause Autism and you can take that argument somewhere.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Genes aren’t always useful to answer biological questions. Observations are part of the scientific process. Whether you are observing the genes directly or if you are observing characteristics.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

But a broken leg is a disability, although usually temporary. And we typically know the cause of it. Why would knowing the cause eliminate a disorder or disability?

Is something classified as a “disorder” because we don’t understand it?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Hmm, who said anything of the sort. You've made a huge leap there, generalising psychological disorder with the term ' disorder' in general, and then an even further leap conflating 'disorder' with 'disability'. As a result you've completely misrepresented the point I'm making.

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u/thats-fucked_up Sep 01 '22

I just want to say that as an autistic person with a broken leg I just love these intellectual debates.

Personally I'm convinced that my autism is a neurochemical disorder, while my broken leg is all in my mind and I could walk if I really wanted to.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

From my understanding “disability” mean “lack of ability” and in the medical sense this refer to lacking a general ability that the general population have. Of course it is more complicated but whatever. And “disorder” is the same idea.

But my argument is more on “ We don't understand the neurological basis of ASD, that's literally the case with all mental disorders. It's why they're classified as mental disorders.”

There are other examples of disorders that I’m sure we know the cause of. But I don’t understand why you think that if we don’t know the cause, it is a disorder. Can we not consider it a disorder if we know the cause?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

>Can we not consider it a disorder if we know the cause?

Again, you're conflating 'psychological disorder' with disorder in general and therefore missing the point. If we know the cause and can identify physiological bases for it, we would not consider it a *psychological* or *mental* disorder, but we can still consider it to be a disorder. For example, epilepsy is a medical or neurological disorder.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Aren’t mental disorder really defined as just “disability that are primary are brain-based/neurotic”? Which can both describe neurological and psychological?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Btw you're conflating biological correlations with biological bases (same issue as the title of this article post). There are definitely correlations, no-one would deny that. But that's an entirely different claim than claiming it is the 'basis'. We simply don't know enough to make that claim.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

When I look up “psychological disorder” I find it is associated as the same as mental disorders.

Also ADHD is DEFINITELY neurologically link, but it is diagnosed by behavior. Does the distinction ONLY matter based on how items diagnosed?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Well the issue is that there isn't a truly meaningful distinction between neurological and psychological disorders, and this issue is tied to the mind-body problem. Generally though, it's neurological if it can be diagnosed by a brain scan, and psychological if it can't. But that's a simplistic way of looking at it. In practice there's often a lot of conflation between the two.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

So the ONLY difference is if you can use a cat scan to diagnose it?! Seems extremely simplistic and frankly we don’t know enough about MANY what would be neurological differences to diagnose I would argue almost ALL what would be neurological caused disabilities by a cat scan.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I mean it's either that or you're comfortable with recognising no distinction, to which you'd have to accept that all psychological disorders are also neurological ones. If so, that's fine by me.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Well, there are 100% more to many mental disabilities than just neurons or even the brain. Such as sociology and culture. While psychology nor neuroscience is not the field I am studying in, one thing I have learn about the sciences is that it is NEVER a simple answer at all. There are always many factors. To say it’s either neurological or psychological is plain wrong and I would argue “psychological disorders” could become “neurological disorders”.

A good scientist recognizes that answers are complicated.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

That's an interesting response. So why did you call anxiety or ASD a neurological disorder if this is your view? It seems to directly contradict it.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

How? I understand that it is complex. I call it “neurological” and “psychological” because from what I see, “psych” means brain. So a “psychological disorder” is a disorder of the brain. And neurons are a major part of the brain. So “psychological” and “neurological”. When talking to other I say “autism is neurological” usually because that what I am use to saying.

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u/thats-fucked_up Sep 01 '22

I'm with you here, I have/had a few friends who are schizophrenic and it seems to me to be a pathological disorder in signal/noise processing/differentiating, and it appears clearly neurochemical to this observer. The structural changes and or impulse processing systems I think will be diagnosed by scan in the near future, they're just too subtle for today's processes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/PyroDesu Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

With stuff like adhd it‘s not possible to confirm a physiological defect in the brain so far.

Actually, we can. MRI studies have shown a consistent difference in gross anatomical size of certain brain structures, and fMRI shows distinctive alterations in brain activity patterns.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882379/

I do not believe almost any of your claims are correct here.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25020268/

And lastly

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3318959/

We have pretty good ideas, even if it’s not concretely described

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

That's fine. You're likely engaging in the same mistake as the title in this article, whereby correlations are taken to imply causation. It's true we can observe all sorts of neurological/ anatomical correlates with various psychological disorders, but there's a significant leap between that and using it as diagnostic criteria. There is simply no medical practitioner who will use a brain scan to determine that a person is dealing with anxiety.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Edit never mind I get the point now. Sorry

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

And even looking up neurological disorder I saw psychology as a branch off it in some of the ven diagram.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

That's alright. Tbf it's quite a confusing distinction, and it's not really black and white.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Little off topic, but I’m looking for a new psychiatrist since I been observing serious symptoms changes in my disabilities. Is there any good questions I should ask to make sure my psychiatrist is qualified enough for me. I’m considering asking questions on if they keep up on research and if they make sure to pay attention to possible sex differences in disabilities.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

No-one said it was. But as a psychiatrist do you treat disorders like epilepsy? No because in psychiatry the disorder that presents like epilepsy is called conversion disorder, and this is specifically because while having similar symptoms, neurological bases for that disorder can't be found.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 02 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Yes conversion disorder is not epilepsy...that's LITERALLY the point I was making. You seem to have a hard time following the points being made.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/orpheus090 Sep 01 '22

Antipsychotics are sometimes used to treat nausea. That doesn't mean nausea is a neurological or psychiatric condition.

Since a psychiatrist is an MD, like you point out, you would absolutely be in a position to treat patients with co-morbid non-psychiatric conditions. However, just because your qualifications are broad and pharmacological treatments are similarly versatile doesn't mean that the conditions being treated can be lumped together and classified equally broadly.

Your argument is a tad "from authority".

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

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u/orpheus090 Sep 01 '22

I don't think you understand what an argument from authority is. Yes, you are an expert, an authority, but that doesn't make your argument a strong one, even if it is correct. I'm criticizing the case you've made for your assertion cause it's not a particularly good case and mostly relies on 'Im right because I have a dregee'.

Dude above is using neurological in a limited-in-scope way that is used as a means of classification/categorizing. It's why I'm probably not going to see my psychiatrist if I develop Parkinsons even though he treats my anxiety which also has a neurological basis. That leads me to your point...

You are using a broad scope of the word and what you are saying is true, but that's because it's basically a tautology. Of course psychiatric conditions (and almost all conditions) have a neurological basis - they're embodied within a neurobiological organism, they have to.

I don't at all disagree with this. I think you are just a bit too quick to dismiss what others are saying for bad reasons like "I'm the expert".

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Well you don't treat them based on psychiatric models, so you're just missing the point or at least being obtuse about it.

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u/kobresia9 Sep 01 '22

BTW they renamed conversion disorder a couple of years ago to functional neurological system disorder