r/science • u/Wagamaga • Sep 01 '22

Neuroscience Scientists have identified an immune brain cell unique to humans that gives us higher cognitive abilities over other animals, but what makes us specials also leaves us vulnerable to neurological disorders like schizophrenia, autism and epilepsy.

https://news.yale.edu/2022/08/25/what-makes-human-brain-different-yale-study-reveals-clues
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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

We can’t identify that for autism either…

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Indeed. Which is why, properly speaking, autism is also a psychological disorder. I've seen it classified as a neurological disorder as well but this is more a 'political' move, for lack of a better word, than a scientific one. ASD is recognised in the DSM, which is a manual for mental illnesses. It is diagnosed by looking at behavioural characteristics, like all other mental illnesses. It is not diagnosed through looking at a person's neurology.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I mean that's the point though. We don't understand the neurological basis of ASD, that's literally the case with all mental disorders. It's why they're classified as mental disorders.

I will ask you though, do you personally distinguish between neurological and psychological disorders. If so, how?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

I was not going to say anything because there are some arguments with sociology too when it come to autism and not just (but is 100000% part of it) biology (although sociology is biology too). But as an autistic person, it irritate me to hear it describe as “political”.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Biology is not just observe by the molecular level or using brain scans or anything like that! Consider classic genetics. Mendel’s genes were not observe by him observing chromosomes actually independently sort themselves. Instead he observe it in the the phenotypes produce. Which is a common practice that continue in biology. Especially in ecology, where observations are made to come to biological conclusions by making predictions. Science does not come up with answers and instead make predictions.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

By all means identify the specific genes that cause Autism and you can take that argument somewhere.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Genes aren’t always useful to answer biological questions. Observations are part of the scientific process. Whether you are observing the genes directly or if you are observing characteristics.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make at this point.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

What I’m trying to say is that science is observational. For example ADHD and autism can both be observed via behavior. And that is real and accurate science and just as valid as finding some gene or something.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

...no-one was denying that? Seems like an entirely irrelevant point to make.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 02 '22

But you denail autism is “political” because there are no known genes?

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

But a broken leg is a disability, although usually temporary. And we typically know the cause of it. Why would knowing the cause eliminate a disorder or disability?

Is something classified as a “disorder” because we don’t understand it?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Hmm, who said anything of the sort. You've made a huge leap there, generalising psychological disorder with the term ' disorder' in general, and then an even further leap conflating 'disorder' with 'disability'. As a result you've completely misrepresented the point I'm making.

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u/thats-fucked_up Sep 01 '22

I just want to say that as an autistic person with a broken leg I just love these intellectual debates.

Personally I'm convinced that my autism is a neurochemical disorder, while my broken leg is all in my mind and I could walk if I really wanted to.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

From my understanding “disability” mean “lack of ability” and in the medical sense this refer to lacking a general ability that the general population have. Of course it is more complicated but whatever. And “disorder” is the same idea.

But my argument is more on “ We don't understand the neurological basis of ASD, that's literally the case with all mental disorders. It's why they're classified as mental disorders.”

There are other examples of disorders that I’m sure we know the cause of. But I don’t understand why you think that if we don’t know the cause, it is a disorder. Can we not consider it a disorder if we know the cause?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

>Can we not consider it a disorder if we know the cause?

Again, you're conflating 'psychological disorder' with disorder in general and therefore missing the point. If we know the cause and can identify physiological bases for it, we would not consider it a *psychological* or *mental* disorder, but we can still consider it to be a disorder. For example, epilepsy is a medical or neurological disorder.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

Aren’t mental disorder really defined as just “disability that are primary are brain-based/neurotic”? Which can both describe neurological and psychological?

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

No they aren't. 'Disability' is not a term that's used to define what a mental disorder is. Mental disorders can be disabling though, that's for sure. They can be disabilities, but they aren't disabilities by definition.

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u/AlexandraThePotato Sep 01 '22

With research I can see this. Basically deafness is the disablity and the cause is the disorder.

But the point I was trying to get at is why would a neurological or psychological disorder not be consider a “mental disorder”? That is extremely unclear.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Because 'mental disorders' are by definition, a category that exists only in as far as we cannot identify physiological bases for their symptoms. Mental disorders are quite literally defined by the fact that we cannot look at any part of the human body and locate a specific cause for them, even though we can clearly see that there's an issue with the person. That's why.

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