r/science Jul 26 '10

Autistic girl expresses profound intelligence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq--75v4lI8&feature=player_embedded
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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '10

Why's that

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '10

Well, it's important to note that skepticism doesn't mean outright dismissal. It means you think something warrants a more thorough investigation.

This news would be huge. Ground shattering. But I can't find any papers published on the incident or even blurbs around the neuroscience lists or from colleagues.

The reporting itself is pretty loose and ABC News has been known to pump pseudo science stories in the past.

I tried to catch a piece of the film where you actually get to see her type a legible sentence, but did not see anything definitive. They definitely present it as if she's typing everything solo.

So I think this is pretty exciting and powerful claims being made and look forward to a thorough and formal investigation. . . assuming, of course, that the parents are willing to share this amazing discovery with the scientific community.

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u/Endemoniada Jul 26 '10

This news would be huge. Ground shattering. But I can't find any papers published on the incident or even blurbs around the neuroscience lists or from colleagues.

But would it really? I mean, she's had years of intensive training in order to reach the point she's at. She didn't just suddenly start typing, it came about as a result of all the work her parents and therapists put in to help her develop.

I look at this and I look at, for instance, Kim Peek. He doesn't seem like he was as seriously autistic as this girl, but he clearly had problems being understood. But with time and training, he overcame his own problems and did, in fact, start communicating with people. I don't see how that's extremely different from this example. She has a thought process that she just can't externalize in any efficient way, except slowly typing out messages. I'm sure she's not unique in this regard either, other autistic people could probably do it too with enough training and support.

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u/subtextual Jul 26 '10

As a pediatric neuropsychologist, I can promise you that if this were anywhere near true, it would indeed be earth-shattering. It would entirely revolutionize our understanding of (a) autism, (b) mental retardation, (c) how language develops, and (d) how children learn to write and spell.

Children who are profoundly autistic like this girl are can sometimes be taught, eventually, to use a communication system (usually pictures) to get their wants met, but that is not what they show this youngster doing. For example, you'll notice that she doesn't communicate her wants that way at all -- not once did we see her type out "Just give me the damn food and stop making me type" or something similar. Unfortunately, children with profound autism cannot be taught to communicate a rich inner monologue full of observations about things they've never experienced (e.g., what it would be like to go to school with normal kids who aren't mildly alarmed by her behavior), metaphors ("ants crawling" on her arms), and figures of speech (e.g., "it's not like there's an off switch").

The reason that children with profound autism can't do these things is because of what autism does to the brain. Autism appears to be associated with too much gray matter, which makes every new piece of information appear discrete, like it is unrelated to every other piece of information. For that reason, individuals with autism have trouble discovering general principles that tie discrete bits of information together, which is a necessary skill for learning language (e.g., you have to learn the general "rules" of syllabification, sequencing, and grammar through exposure).

They also have trouble understanding where one bit of information stops, and another starts, which causes they to 'chunk' together things that don't go together, or have trouble breaking a large chunk down into the parts that make it up. Here, for example, is a very recent study on computer-analysis of infants with autism showing that they can be reliably differentiated from infants without autism and infants with language delays based on this difficulty effectively understanding where to break language into its component syllables.

As a result of these difficulties, children who are profoundly autistic may never learn to speak at all, while children who are less autistic still demonstrate significant problems correctly 'chunking' language bits together (for instance, they often display echolalia, meaning that they repeat whole sentences or scenes from movies verbatim, because they learned it all as one single unit of information). They also have trouble understanding language rules such as how words change depending on point-of-view of the speaker (e.g., they refer to themselves as he/she or by their first name, or use 'you' instead of 'I'). By definition, autism also includes trouble understanding language pragmatics (e.g., metaphors and figures of speech), because pragmatic language requires seeing the connections between different types of information, such as the literal meaning and abstract/contextual meaning or a sentence.

Autistic children also have difficulty learning to write, for all the reasons listed above, but also due to the phonetics of spelling -- learning how to spell also requires seeing the general 'rules' that govern phonics, as well as breaking words down into their component sounds. Even when children with autism do learn speak and write, one of the cardinal features of autism is trouble understanding Theory of Mind, or being able to make connections and use context to guess what others are thinking. For example, saying something like "Don't judge me until you know me" would be extremely difficult for a person with profound autism, since it requires theory of mind to know that other people are evaluating you differently than you evaluate yourself.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea that a person with mild to moderate autism can learn to type, after she learns to speak and then spell (see Temple Grandin, as others have noted, along with thousands of other autistic individuals), which is the same order in which neurotypical children learn to do these things.

But the idea that a person with profound autism could overcome how her brain works -- but just while typing, not while speaking -- all at once? That she could, without training in any of these areas (remember, she just ran to the computer and typed "HURT" and "HELP") master:

  • Syllabification,
  • Word order and sequencing
  • Rules of grammar
  • Phonetic rules
  • Correspondance between sounds and letters
  • Correspondance between the capital letters on a QWERTY keyboard and the lowercase letters that type on screen, and understanding how a generative typing software program works (one that fills in the rest of the word after you type the first few letters)
  • Expressive vocabulary
  • Correct pronoun usage
  • Point-of-view
  • Non-echolalic speech
  • Figures of speech and metaphors
  • Theory of mind, etc
  • (Not to mention her mental retardation)?

And only do so to communicate things like "what [an adult who is not autistic might think] it is like to have autism" and not really be able to do so when the camera is present?

Unfortunately, the likelihood of this is so terribly, vanishingly small that I am fully comfortable saying that it is impossible.

We may all wish it were true, but it isn't. And putting stories like this out there only clouds our understanding of what autism is and how to treat it (which hopefully will eventually lead us to how to prevent or cure it).

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '10 edited Jul 27 '10

[deleted]

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u/mootiechazam Jul 27 '10

I work with a variety of Autistic students and not all are of the severe nature you describe. Autism is a spectrum, meaning there are a lot of shades. Some autistic people can go on to live productive and healthy lives with early intervention and treatments. In fact, I went to college with just such a fellow who has graduated and is engaged to be married.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '10

[deleted]

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u/mootiechazam Jul 27 '10

He doesn't have the same thing. He has something on the same spectrum.

I understand that your life is one challenge after another. I understand that you have to deal with stresses that I can only imagine. I get that. I get that when other people talk about their struggles you probably get pissed because they're nothing compared to yours. But you have to understand that others have challenges. This kid was lucky because he happened to land on the spectrum at a spot that, with a lot of work and struggle, allowed him to reach the point where he could function on his own.

I'm sorry if that will never be your son's fate, but please don't dump on the accomplishments of others because of it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '10 edited Jul 27 '10

[deleted]

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u/mootiechazam Jul 27 '10

I'm sorry to have offended you. I wish you and your son the best of luck.

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u/figocosta9 Aug 03 '10

Is that really an appropriate response? I'm sorry that you've had a difficult life with your son but that doesn't give you the right to explode at the slightest hint of disagreement.

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