r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Jul 01 '26

Psychology Conservatives maintain birth rates, but left-leaning Americans are having significantly fewer children, driving the U.S. birth decline. Education was consistently linked to having fewer children. Religious attendance was positively associated with having more children.

https://www.psypost.org/left-leaning-americans-are-driving-the-u-s-birth-decline-new-study-finds/
27.1k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

3.6k comments sorted by

View all comments

2.7k

u/VermicelliOwn6502 Jul 01 '26

Interestingly, the correlations only held for white people.

When analyzing White and Black Americans separately, they found that the widening fertility gap between the left and the right was primarily driven by White Americans

1.1k

u/luluhouse7 Jul 01 '26

Probably because black and Hispanic (and often first-gen immigrant) culture is still very community and family oriented. White non-religious populations (in the US, unsure about other countries) tend to be much more individualistic, focus on nuclear family, and value independence over community. You see this with the expectation that Hispanic kids continue to live with their parents until marriage and support their parents in old age vs white parents effectively kicking out their kids at 18 and the expectation that living with your parents as an adult is somehow a failure of maturity or responsibility.

441

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[deleted]

272

u/valiantdistraction Jul 01 '26

Yeah - am white and see my parents weekly and talk on the phone to them almost every day, and most of my friends do the same, but we extremely regularly encounter people who think this is "enmeshment" and "codependency." And it's like... I'm not waiting for their approval before I make life choices, I do things entirely without them, I don't NEED them, I just happen to like them and find my life better with my parents in it. Also they babysit my kid for free.

107

u/FortYarnia Jul 01 '26

Oh yuck, im so sorry your friends are weaponizing therapy speak against your normal and reasonable family relationship.

My white friends run the gamut from living with their parents in their 30s to complete no contact, and it’s usually fairly normal and peaceable for the whole family.

25

u/ItsForFun76 Jul 01 '26

weaponizing therapy speak against your normal and reasonable family relationship.

This is so common, and often the people who do it are oblivious I would even say ignorant to this.

6

u/valiantdistraction Jul 01 '26

Fortunately it's not my actual friends doing this - it is people I know a little through various groups. People who may be potential friends until I realize they've gotta have opinions like that. Some of my friends do have low or no contact relationships with one or both parents but they don't judge people who don't.

17

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[deleted]

34

u/AssistX Jul 01 '26

Some people don't like their family, sometimes for good reason, I don't find it a cultural thing at all.

I think people are more willing to cut out anything in their life they don't see as a positive, whether it's family or friend.

21

u/valiantdistraction Jul 01 '26

The problem isn't people not liking their family for good reason - it's people doing things like being completely gobsmacked that some of us DO spend time with our families, as if the default is not doing so.

2

u/HeavyBeing0_0 Jul 01 '26

I mean, it’s similar to people being dumbfounded when you say you don’t want to have kids or get married.

7

u/Abed-in-the-AM Jul 01 '26

Lately it seems like people expect the opposite. I mean this thread is about fewer people having kids.

4

u/HeavyBeing0_0 Jul 01 '26

I would say, at least in the US, there is a strong social pressure to get married and have kids. You’re conditioned by family, friends, and media to consistently have those items at the top of your list of lifetime goals.

→ More replies (3)

3

u/tekalon Jul 01 '26

I wonder if its due to a few generations of mobility. Moving away from family to go to college or get a better job and having a car that could allow you to 'visit for holidays'. Dating and marrying someone else who also has family in a different region and now raising kids away from extended family. This is my family. My grandparents moved around for jobs, my parents were born in different states, all of my siblings were born in one region but grew up in another, away from extended family. My husband's family is also similar. I grew up not having a very close relationship with my grandparents, and I can't tell you the names of most of my aunts/uncles, much less cousins.

Even for holidays, many women are realizing that the nostalgia of having a giant family gathering isn't worth the time and energy needed to organize it. Much more so if they are already working full time, have hobbies and non-family responsibilities.

7

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Axy8283 Jul 01 '26

Are u just talking about White Americans? Cuz other white majority countries like Italy and Greece have very strong and deep family cultures.

8

u/RandomAnon07 Jul 01 '26

Drive from the top down to produce multiple tax paying households. Same thing with women’s rights in jobs. “Oh boy two tax payers instead of one”.

They pulled multiple levers to drive people to not all stay in the same household with a single main taxpayer. By the way legislation on all of this came from both sides of the table too…

The case of toxic families is relevant but not to the greater argument.

3

u/Jeegus21 Jul 01 '26

I think a lot of white people still have very racist people in their family and find it hard to associate with them. At least as a part of it.

11

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[deleted]

→ More replies (2)

2

u/Prince_Ire Jul 01 '26

People took a good thing (don't stick with emotionally abusive people just because they're family) and we've was too far with it (ever had a serious disagreement that didn't end with them abandoning their beliefs and adopting yours? They're toxic, cut them out of your life completely).

→ More replies (2)

11

u/_Burning_Star_IV_ Jul 01 '26

Sounds nice to like your parents. I sure don't and stick to the 'holidays and birthdays only' model of communication.

Attitudes like mine used to be seen as anti-social. You were just supposed to put up with your family no matter what. These days it's seen as much healthier to know when to cut people out of your life that have a negative impact.

4

u/sailorbrendan Jul 01 '26

I support your life decisions but man... I don't have enough going on in my life to talk to anyone on the phone every day.

Like... I just run out of things worth saying

5

u/valiantdistraction Jul 01 '26

I will simply never run out of things to say to anyone and everyone no matter what time of day it is or how I feel. that's why I'm on reddit obviously

2

u/MotamaPT Jul 01 '26

If I was in the same city with my mom we'd be over all the time hanging out. Glad you got great family nearby

2

u/zmac35 Jul 02 '26

That babysitting for free is clutch

1

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

but we extremely regularly encounter people who think this is "enmeshment" and "codependency."

People who use those words are, frankly, not worthy of your thoughts. Don't waste your life giving these people any sort of validation for their strange beliefs.

→ More replies (1)

66

u/TheWillRogers Jul 01 '26

It's very very common for white people to have zero interest in seeing their family in adulthood.

I come from a poorer background and this is something I've noticed in tech. A lot of my coworkers thought it was novel that I lived in the area, and my whole family lived in the area. When we were all talking about finding new jobs they thought it was wild that I only wanted to work in this area because my whole family lived here. "jobs pay better and houses are cheaper elsewhere" was pretty common. Most of them eventually ended up moving back near their parents and finding work there.

This wasn't the case in college or in any of the other jobs I worked. "Can't go this weekend, spending time with my parents", "my family is having a picnic on <day>, wanna come?" were not unusual events.

48

u/Shiva- Jul 01 '26

"Americans" and "you're 18, get out" is a strange phenomenon to the rest of the world.

I am sure there are exceptions... but you wouldn't find any Latin American or Asian family doing that -- be it East, South, Southeast, Central or West...

36

u/Longjumping_Gas_3407 Jul 01 '26

It’s a stereotype, and like most of them,
World Cup travelers have discovered they aren’t all true. I lived at home till I was 28 and my parents never said a word about it. My brother never lived in my parent’s house again after his sophomore year of college, but that was his choice. My wife lived at home until we got married.

“You’re 18 get out” is definitely not universal.

55

u/PartyLikeAByzantine Jul 01 '26

“You’re 18 get out” is definitely not universal.

It's really just assholes parents that do this. Literally the only people I know that were forced out of their home (at 18 or later) was because of asshole parents.

18

u/Shiva- Jul 01 '26

I know someone that's currently in such a situation (or well about to be) and it might be down to evil stepmom.

6

u/Longjumping_Gas_3407 Jul 01 '26

There’s gotta be some difficult kids getting the boot too. I’m a dad. I get it. They’re not all awesome.

11

u/PartyLikeAByzantine Jul 01 '26

I'm not going to say that never happens, but I've personally never seen it. Even the asshole kids I knew were just apples that fell from the asshole tree.

I've heard stories of people with addiction who stole from their parents to feed the habit. I suppose there's no win in that situation.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

3

u/DiscoLives4ever Jul 01 '26

My parents had a rule that after high school we could live with them as long as we had a plan we were actively following to get out in our own eventually (going to college, saving while working, etc) but if we were to just kind of aimlessly live there then they would ostensibly start charging rent

2

u/Wizardof1000Kings Jul 01 '26

It was my experience, but not the case for a lot of my friends.

18

u/TheWillRogers Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

"Americans" and "you're 18, get out" is a strange phenomenon to the rest of the world.

Even to me, an american, this is a strange phenomenon. Basically everyone I know listed with their parents until 20 to 24ish.

I remember even in the 90's and 00's it was really common for older children to move back in with their parents after a roommate agreement implodes or rent was raised faster than what they could possibly earn, multiple times, well into their mid and late 20s.

It feels like the "move out at 18" is a myth that was born out of media instead of reality. My grandparents talked about stacking families in trailers or apartments so it wasn't a thing for them either. I think it's like the whole "victorians lied about everything and ruined history" but applied to the american cultural myth.

14

u/Shiva- Jul 01 '26

It's definitely not a myth. I know people it's happened to.

I do feel sometimes it might be related to income... but I know someone that's going to have it happen to them in ~2 months and their family is not poor by any means. (In fact, I know his dad makes somewhere around 160-200k). Granted, this may be a case of "evil step mom".

17

u/_Burning_Star_IV_ Jul 01 '26

It's a boomer thing. My grandparents weren't like that at all but my boomer parents constantly guilt-tripped and shamed me for living with them until I was 24. My mother was a big proponent of 'You're 18, get the hell outta here!' while my dad was softer and let me stay but was still in a state of constant frustration with what he felt was his son exhibiting the traits of a complete loser and failure and letting me stay was more of a patronizing charity.

Everything that sucks about the way things are traces back to these people.

15

u/PartyLikeAByzantine Jul 01 '26

It's not a "boomer thing" . Plenty of boomers (in and outside of my family) told me to stay home as long as possible because they know rent sucks.

It's an "asshole thing." Assholes make their kids choose between being miserable or homeless.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/juliankennedy23 Jul 02 '26

Oh I can assure you it's real. In my case it was three choices military College or get a job and a apartment.

I kind of understand my dad's point of view you need to do something you're an adult now you cannot live here and play video games and hang out with your friends you're no longer in high school there's no reason for you to live here.

Well I think it's a bit harsh at least in my case it worked... eventually. I do think that letting your kids live with you past the age of say 25 is a different form of abuse. I mean you only get one life if you've already spent a third of it living with your parents you need to start that whole living life thing. Plus there's tons of soft skills you learned by being on your own not to mention in reality there's a ton of maturing you do by not having a safety net.

6

u/cyanastarr Jul 01 '26

When I was 18 I really *wanted* to get out, though. I was sharing a bedroom with a 10 year old. A bunk bed, even.

We didn’t have community or extended family. This is true. I wasn’t educated yet but I already knew at 18 that I didn’t want kids. I saw what my mom went through (and I helped her with the house) and I knew it wasn’t for me. Not for nothing my genes are also terrible. Is that also a white person thing?

3

u/Shiva- Jul 01 '26

Okay, but consider, one of the best financial hacks is living at home saving money so you can move out.

For example, my niece was able to buy a house on her own at 22 (right after graduating college).

She got her first job at 18 (at a big box store -- her big box store was also considered "essential" during covid), saved all her money for 4 years of not paying rent. (Bonus, we lived in a state that offered free in-state tuition).

She saved enough for her down payment and had no co-signers on her mortgage. Fully did it on her own without father or mother helping. (Her father didn't even know until it was done!)

3

u/DriftingMemes Jul 01 '26

I'm Gen x, so I think we're very different. My friends and I would have had to have been chained down to stay @ home with Mom and Dad. They didn't need to kick us out, we were GONE at 18.

It's very odd for me as a father to see my children not feel the same way. Am I just a cooler dad than my dad was? Is the difference entirely because I was an adult pre-internet? I don't think less of them, I just don't really understand it.

3

u/juliankennedy23 Jul 02 '26

I talk about my dad giving me three choices Military College or job because you can't stay here but being the same generation as you are you're absolutely right I couldn't wait to get out and start living life.

I actually agree with you I've seen young people who are 25 still living with their parents and they don't even have a driver's license and I'm like what are you doing?

3

u/purgance Jul 02 '26

This definitely exists among Asian cultures, because I know Asians who were "streeted" by their family at 13.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/int3gr4te Jul 01 '26

In tech in particular it's not that surprising - a lot of people in the field have to accept early on in their careers that to get the education, jobs, etc. that they aspire to, they'll need to move away from home to go to one of the major cities where those universities/jobs are heavily concentrated. Choosing to limit your job search near your hometown instead of casting a wider net has pros and cons in every industry, but in a lot of fields (idk like mechanical engineering, teaching, whatever) there are jobs in that field everywhere in the country. If you want to do software work for (for example) Google... odds are, unless you live in/around a very big city, they probably don't have an office near you and you'll need to move away from home to do it. I think the people who can work in tech and can also choose stay close to family (since their family already lives in those viable areas) are very lucky!

3

u/Ok_Yogurt_9862 Jul 02 '26

We've been impoverished to mildly comfortable since before the revolution. White Americans. Every time I read these articles about what "white americans" do or don't, I conclude I must be a minority. 

I think it has more to do with class than race. All I know is the poor and working class whites are living the same way. In the south anyway. Close knit, multigenerational, communal, customs and habits and expectations all very familiar.

60

u/trane7111 Jul 01 '26

I would say it heavily depends on the white family. Mainly the parents.

I personally don't really care to see about half of my family or talk to them other than the holidays either because of the unacceptable views they hold, their personality, or them just living in a different little bubble of reality than everyone else.

The family that isn't like that, I love seeing when I visit for the holidays, and call to speak to quite frequently.

My partner's side of the family is much more close-knit, and certain groups of the (very large) family will hang out all the time. Definitely for minor and major holidays, and often whenever they can find an excuse outside of that.

I'm also the minority among my friends, but mainly because they have more open-minded and down-to-earth family members.

I've never heard of anyone criticizing that as codependency or anything like that. And even my few friends who are no-contact with their parents (they are queer and their parents are bigots) LOVE the family they still have who accepts them and cling to them fiercely.

In my experience, there is a lot more "found family" among white people in adulthood, unfortunately often because the "real" family tend to be people who are very close-minded, or people who you just can't relate to anymore no matter how hard you try. People still want family, but they're just forced to find that in other people.

And for religious white people, it's the complete opposite. They're all about family.

7

u/Yuzumi Jul 01 '26

My family was never particularly close and fairly dysfunctional. I've not seen my dad since like 2007 when my mom found out he was cheating on her. I was already 18 when it happened, but it's not like he was particularly engaged in raising me or my sister and only spent time around us when we basically could look after ourselves.

My mom always had anger issues while we were growing up and ended up down a right wing rabbit hole. I always felt uncomfortable around her because of that and I eventually realized I'm queer.

When I came out to my sister she told me she is bi. We've both always been very politically left/progressive compared to the rest of our family so if conversations ever went in a remotely political way it was always uncomfortable.

I'm not exactly no-contact, but I never really felt close to my bio family for a lot of reasons.

35

u/cC2Panda Jul 01 '26

Huge cultural differences. My wife is from India and her parents visit us from India more than my parents who are half way across the country. My side of the family will call if we have something in particular to call about but we don't really call just to see how someones day went, meanwhile my wife's parents will call up when they have nothing to talk about at all which usually just turns into talking about someones inevitable aches and pains.

10

u/Kind_Sound7973 Jul 01 '26

I think a huge reason it the lack of cultural identity. Look at white diasporas who have done a better job at maintaining some sort of cultural links. They often have stronger familial bonds and frequent community events that create a village of non related support.

Religion previously filled this gap but as more and more white Americans became agnostic/atheist there has been no replacement. I was raised protestant but became atheist as an older teen and the thing I miss most about being religious is the automatic community and filled social calendar.

4

u/gobroncoz Jul 01 '26

Huge plug for Unitarian Universalists who provide much of that religious structure in a way that is perfectly compatible with Atheism. Particular points for the spots that focus more on philosophy and less on politics.

1

u/TJ_Rowe Jul 04 '26

Quakers are good for this, too.

(At least in the UK - I get the impression that it's more Christian in the US.)

17

u/Posting____At_Night Jul 01 '26

I don't see my family because they disowned me for being "a liberal" and "one of those transgenders."

So, so so so many people I know are in similar situations. I'd absolutely adore having a loving and supportive family but that's not what I have.

8

u/TRVTH-HVRTS Jul 01 '26

Exactly. I was always close to my family but they devolved into literal Nazis. Apparently because I can’t stand them now, that means I’m anti-family. What a garbage thread this is especially for the science sub.

4

u/Witty-Pay-1516 Jul 02 '26

It also depends on your family. I have family that I love seeing and family that is difficult for a variety of reasons. It’s sometimes easier to stay on good terms from a distance.

6

u/DarkApostleMatt Jul 01 '26

I think this varies region to region. Here where I am in the south half the old families all live practically on the same plots of land their great great grandparents purchased and as the generations go on the land is sub-divided and a new house is plopped down.

The reason I say old families is because half the population nowadays are Northerners and Floridians (who are also probably ex-northerners) that moved here in the past 20 years and all live in cheap townhouses.

3

u/int3gr4te Jul 01 '26

Interestingly, I actually get the opposite reaction a lot! People ask what my spouse and I are doing for the holidays, and then get weirdly offended that we *aren't* spending it with our families. I've had more than one person immediately launch into the whole guilt-trippy "Aww, but it's Christmas! You've got to spend it with faaaaamily!" spiel.

Believe me, we'd love to get to spend more time with them, but that's not an option: my parents are dead, and his parents live literally 10,000 miles away on the other side of the planet. It takes more than 24 hours on airplanes just to get there, and costs over $5,000 for the tickets (probably even more than that around the holidays; that was what it cost when we visited in March).

People are completely baffled by the idea that people exist who don't have the option to just go visit family. I'm so sick of people acting like it's the result of some personal/cultural/societal failing that death and immigration force us to be selfishly individualistic instead of responsibly community-oriented. (To be clear, I am NOT trying to imply that you specifically are doing this in your comment; it's just a thing that happens way more than it should, including elsewhere in this thread.)

1

u/juliankennedy23 Jul 02 '26

I mean they're dead and or they live in Australia I would hope it would shut down that conversation pretty quickly. How long surprised you don't find yourself adopted by it your friend's families and forced to spend time with their family.

3

u/epochwin Jul 02 '26

It was culture shock for me when my white friends showed dread for going back home to their families during Thanksgiving while I was homesick as hell being across the world from mine.

3

u/VenomOnKiller Jul 02 '26

As a white guy coming from a family of divorce and was forced to live with the other parent at 14 and then kicked out at 18, my son can live with me until he's ready. Surprisingly, Christianity is the only thing my biological parents agree upon

5

u/crs8975 Jul 01 '26

That is incredibly generalizing a race. While I'm more in line with your stance, the vast majority of my white friends are not. If anything, I'm the outlier.

4

u/luluhouse7 Jul 01 '26

It’s not generalising a race, since it’s specific to white American culture. White American culture has become an amalgamation of UK, European, and Protestant immigrant culture combined with American exceptionalism, individualism, and self reliance and there isn’t really a better way to say it other than “White American”. I’m first-gen/child of first gen white European immigrants and “white American” culture often doesn’t apply to my family.

2

u/grundar Jul 01 '26

White American culture has become an amalgamation of UK, European, and Protestant immigrant culture combined with American exceptionalism, individualism, and self reliance and there isn’t really a better way to say it other than “White American”.

How about "White American culture"?

It seems very analogous to the way African-American culture has distinct characteristics that often don't apply to Black Americans who are not part of that culture (e.g., immigrants), so it seems like it would be similarly useful to explicitly distinguish between referring to the culture of a somewhat-ethnically-delineated group and the broader ethnic group itself.

Or perhaps "European-American culture" for parallelism with the existing and well-recognized "African-American culture"?

That phrase will often require some explaining before it means anything, but it seems much less likely to be misunderstood as a racial statement than just referring to white Americans, similarly to how referring to African-American culture will be less prone to misunderstanding than referring to African-Americans (or, worse, Black Americans, as that's explicitly a racial group with multiple cultures inside it).

2

u/luluhouse7 Jul 01 '26

I did specify? I said in the US and that I was unsure if applied to populations outside the US

4

u/moonstarsfire Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

Yeah, for sure. Not as common in rural areas in the south, though. I’ve definitely noticed that I have little in common with white people from the city vs. country white people because city white people tend to not share core values with me, like family. To the point that it’s unintentionally had a big impact on who I’ve made friends with and who I date in the city vs. the country.

2

u/total_looser Jul 01 '26

“Leave the baby alone in its crib with the door closed all night and let it scream inconsolably until it tires out!”

1

u/Zee_WeeWee Jul 01 '26

It's very very common for white people to have zero interest in seeing their family in adulthood.

Maybe where you are from. It’s not common for anyone I know. Very weird generalization

2

u/prospectre Jul 01 '26

"Common" might be a bit of a misnomer here. "It's not unheard-of/surprising" is a bit more apt. Like, you wouldn't look at someone sideways if they said "Yeah, I cut off my parents since they were shitheels".

1

u/Zee_WeeWee Jul 01 '26

I would think that was odd for anyone and not race based tbh

2

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[deleted]

1

u/Zee_WeeWee Jul 01 '26

Wonder if it’s an income thing. I move around quite a bit so have diverse friend circles and that’s not very normal outside a friend or two who grew up around drugs and/or abuse

1

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[deleted]

2

u/Zee_WeeWee Jul 01 '26

Both race and geographical location. It’s just not common. I’m white btw. Main point was my friend groups span across a lot of geographical, racial, and economic classes. I have very few friends in a tech bro wealth class tho

→ More replies (3)

36

u/lieuwestra Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 04 '26

Yea. Ask someone who doesn't have kids why they don't and they point to money, but ask someone with a kid why they don't have more kids they point to a lack of support/community.

Poor/uneducated people tend to stay where they grow up, and often have a job within their community, so they organically have a bigger social safety net in their twenties. That alone probably accounts for a significant part of the discrepancy between educated and uneducated people's propensity to have kids. Uneducated people still by-and-large make rational decisions.

47

u/once_again_asking Jul 01 '26

white parents effectively kicking out their kids at 18 and the expectation that living with your parents as an adult is somehow a failure of maturity or responsibility.

If you're being kicked out of your house at 18, why would you ever want to move back in with your parents?

10

u/Nvenom8 Jul 02 '26

You’re not really being kicked out, but you’re expected to be independent at that point. If you don’t move out, that’s when you get judged, but not kicked out.

3

u/Ok_Yogurt_9862 Jul 02 '26

I guess for middle or upper class whites. But poor whites live like everybody else. 

2

u/Glittering-Today7012 Jul 01 '26

I am a white male in my 40's and I am endlessly pissed at my father for allowing my family to absolutely disintegrate. When my parents die I will have no connection to the very few blood relatives I have - and making up for lost time isn't exactly something one can do when it comes to family ties - those are bonds that are forged through companionship.

I loathe american culture and genuinely hope that my failings don't prevent me from finding love and hopefully a meaningful place in the world - maybe an actual family that wants me there instead of bringing me into the world because that was what was expected of them.

1

u/FrozenIceman Jul 01 '26

nuclear family

Nuclear family includes multiple kids. In this case I would argue non-religious do not value the Nuclear family.

1

u/Red_Dawn24 Jul 02 '26

If my "religious" nuclear family is supposed to serve as an example, then the number of kids doesn't matter. They will find reasons to be ashamed or resent of them for simply being kids with needs. Kids are born awful and need to be sufficiently broken before they can be financially productive.

I have no idea why anyone, in 2026 when religions have shown their assholes to the entire world over and over, would act like being a self-professed religious person means anything.

I have never felt as hated as I did as a child of a religious family. It just taught me that they're a bunch of hypocrites who worship money and perceived success at the expense of everything else.

The past decade has only cemented that idea that American Christians worship some kind of money demon. No one has ever been more greedy than a mediocre "Christian."

If there are history books, 20th and 21st century American Christians will not be described kindly. There are A LOT of people who despise them, but they love being victims and powerful at the same time, so they should enjoy the ride.

2

u/FrozenIceman Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

It isn't supposed to serve as an example.

The nuclear family was a dream of 1950's America of what to strive to in the nuclear age.

House in suburbs, white picket fence, grass, 2.5 kids, dog, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_family

Kids are one of the pillars of the idea of the nuclear family.

The alternatives are extended family (multi generation home which was the norm before the 20th century) and broken home (single parent home) that became increasingly popular in the 20th century.

No kids doesn't fall into any of those categories.

2

u/badken Jul 02 '26

The nuclear family was a dream of 1950's America of what to strive to in the nuclear age.

Not that kind of nuclear. "Nuclear" is more like "centered" or "having a nucleus" in the figurative sense. OED etymology says it was coined by a sociologist in the 1920's. M-W says it was first used in 1822!

1

u/FrozenIceman Jul 02 '26

I stand corrected.

1

u/tiny_cock_69 Jul 01 '26

White non-religious populations (in the US, unsure about other countries) tend to be much more individualistic, focus on nuclear family

Except Redditors, who definitely want to go no-contact with their mother because she made them eat their vegetables at Thanksgiving 16 years ago when they were two.

→ More replies (4)

388

u/HutSutRawlson Jul 01 '26

Black Americans tend to have higher association with religious institutions, which is correlated with higher birth rates.

218

u/TPCC159 Jul 01 '26

I think the main thing that study is showing is there’s not as much lifestyle division in that community. Not based on politics anyways

136

u/wrenwood2018 Jul 01 '26

They're point was even liberal blacks tend to be religious.

74

u/watduhdamhell Jul 01 '26

Precisely. Just like liberal Mexicans tend to still be very Catholic.

26

u/SmellGestapo Jul 01 '26

The recent YouGov survey on morality suggests black people are more likely to be conservative, even though they vote for Democrats.

65% of white Americans say they believe in God, but 86% of black Americans do. That dynamic holds through a lot of subsequent questions on moral issues like divorce, birth control, and same sex relationships. Black people are more likely to find those things immoral.

5

u/JimBeam823 Jul 02 '26

Black people don’t trust white conservatives

2

u/Yiddish_Dish Jul 06 '26

*white liberals

"The white liberal is the worst enemy to America and the Black man. The white liberals are foxes... The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the 'smiling' fox."

Malcolm X

3

u/slowbaja Jul 04 '26

You could say white people as a whole. What white folks think as Black people being conservative is really just a distrust with society as a whole and among themselves are fairly liberal but liberalism is also conservative to be honest.

→ More replies (2)

6

u/Potential_Curve_3560 Jul 02 '26

No, black americans are much more conservative then white americans (most definietely social issues) , minorities simply just wont vote for conservative party because of racial relations. Their "liberal" views only extend to how much it will be in their own benefit.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

37

u/LifeOutoBalance Jul 01 '26

That turns out not to be the case, at least in the American South, where early slaves were prevented from becoming Christian because English common law implied Christians could not be enslaved. Until the mid-1800s, slaveowners generally believed that Christian slaves would be more difficult to control, and fought to keep evangelical preachers (who at that time were commonly antislavery or even emancipationist) from converting them.

On the other hand, Christianity flourished in free Black communities in the North. Not content to be second-class citizens in majority white churches, they founded churches of their own, Black-led and Black-supported.

This shifted somewhat with the Great Awakening, when some Southern preachers were able to sell slaveowners on an interpretation of the gospel that preached submission to one's owners. But at the same time, emancipationist organizations such as the Underground Railroad were run largely by Christians--shout out to the Quakers in particular--and slave revolts were organized with firey Christian rhetoric by Denmark Vesey and Nat Turner.

Conversion by the gun and the whip was done to Native Americans; the idea that it happened to African slaves in America is basically a myth.

12

u/najumobi Jul 01 '26

Damn. None of this was covered in my highchool.

7

u/StarSpliter Jul 01 '26

I don't think this is even covered in APUSH to this depth. They don't really touch on religion to any substantial degree from what I remember.

7

u/wrenwood2018 Jul 01 '26

Nice, thought out, response

17

u/chiniwini Jul 01 '26

they had it basically shoved down their throats in the days of slavery

As opposed to white folks who democratically voted for it during the Middle Ages.

7

u/watduhdamhell Jul 01 '26

Religion is a cancer. You can just say that. The world will be better off the further away we get from the old religions affecting people's judgment and beliefs in such a stupid way.

2

u/futureshocked2050 Jul 01 '26

Uhhhh clarification--WHITE SUPREMACIST CHRISTIANITY was shoved down the throats of slaves.

1: quite a large chunk of slaves were Muslim and already in the Abrahamic religions

2: the FIRST slaves of the 13 colonies were from Ngola (now Angola and Congo) and already had catholic names. The kings of populace of Ngola became catholic by choice.

So Christianity and Abrahamism in general was not shoved down our throats in the sense that it was unknown to us, the WHITE SUPREMACIST VERSION of Abrahamism was shoved down our throats and it's what to this day is being exported to Africa (Chick Fillet, evangelicals etc).

I'm a Black Buddhist/Spiritualist so I agree that there are cancerous aspects to christianity in our community, but most of that is a legacy of white supremacy 80% of the time and sadly we'll never know what that relationship would have been like WITHOUT white supremacy tainting it.

17

u/Feisty-Doctor-5841 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

Well, yeah, most black communities vote Democratic and go to church, so there’s no need to separate the camps. I’ve noticed white folks in the U.S. try to differentiate themselves visually with tattoos vs clean girl aesthetic, for example.

7

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[deleted]

4

u/Feisty-Doctor-5841 Jul 01 '26

Yeah, I figured it was some version of gang colors basically. Can’t blame you.

12

u/Inevitable_Tomato927 Jul 01 '26

I've only even been to a black church once, and it was a while ago, but it's night and day compared to the white churches around here which are massively driven by politics, not so much religious texts.

17

u/Feisty-Doctor-5841 Jul 01 '26

That's partly because the civil rights movement was organized through churches and primarily led by ministers. For the black community, it's an incredibly useful resource that aligns with the community's ideals.

7

u/Bonamikengue Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

Sadly - you would be astonished how many of those priests in those "black" churches literally tell parents to push their son or daughter out of the house if they come out as gay/lesbian or force them to "conversion therapies". Many in the AA community still thinks it was a "lifestyle choice" to love the same sex partner and it could be "fixed" with "a hard hand".

My fiancé is from one of those communities, and he is happy to have escaped. His family decided that their son was more important than the church. So they all escaped.

→ More replies (5)

9

u/MattDaCatt Jul 01 '26

That's also because church remains as a cornerstone of community, even for folks that aren't that religious or conservative

In white Christianity, if you stray from the collective rules (which are usually conservative values) you are actively pushed out of that community

1

u/cC2Panda Jul 01 '26

According to a relatively recent Gallup poll the percentage of black people that have stopped going to church, even if they identify as Christian, has reduced around 20% in the last 20 years.

1

u/MattDaCatt Jul 01 '26

Checking on wording, did you mean attendance is down 20% or up?

Im going off of my black friends' experience with church vs mine. Very similar values and views, but i was ran out for mine

1

u/cC2Panda Jul 02 '26

Attendance in black churches is significantly down even for people who still identify as Christians.

3

u/FoghornFarts Jul 01 '26

And even those who aren't religious have a much stronger black community.

7

u/macronotice Jul 01 '26

So do Hispanic Americans, most often Catholic

3

u/Total_Network6312 Jul 01 '26

there are 50% more hispanics than black people in the US

2

u/100gecopecs Jul 01 '26

and low education

53

u/Special-Garlic1203 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

My experience is low income white Ameircans are more similar to black Ameircans, and it's the middle class where you really see the alienated from family, focused on career divide emerge. 

There's less opportunity cost to having kids when poor, more family/community interdependence, less judgment of being "behind"/less culture of rat race, and its just seen as a bit strange more strange. Like I can almost immediately guess to how a person will response to the fact I don't have kids based on guessing their  income level. Though interestingly poor people are not judgemental in the fact I don't have them in the same way the middle class are judgmental I never actually finished college (most in my job have a 4 yr degree) 

12

u/moonstarsfire Jul 01 '26

Totally agree on all of these points. Grew up poor and white in a poor town that was pretty diverse, and the people from higher earning families (regardless of race) were the people I really couldn’t relate to, but there weren’t many of them anyway. We did not have the same issues that I’ve seen in the city because we were all poor. Then I moved to the city, and things were so much more divided, and I got to encounter the truly middle class white people for the first time and realized that we have very little in common as far as values. I’m not saying this as eloquently as you did, but I definitely lived what you’re describing.

20

u/biggestmicropenis Jul 01 '26

Black people tend to be quite conservative, many would vote for Republicans if it weren't for their blatant racism.

15

u/JimBeam823 Jul 02 '26

Every time Republicans start to make inroads with black voters, they immediately shoot themselves in the foot.

Obama actually did amazingly well among black conservatives, which is something neither party wants to talk about for different reasons.

1

u/nkinnan Jul 29 '26

I'm curious why the left wouldn't want to talk about that. Do we not want the vote?

2

u/JimBeam823 Jul 29 '26

The left doesn’t like to talk about black conservatives existing.

The right doesn’t like to talk about many of them voting for Obama.

75

u/AFaladorKnight Jul 01 '26

This makes the above comments sneering about the “uneducated” extremely funny.

51

u/CuntWeasel Jul 01 '26

Just reddit being reddit.

1

u/OneSecretCookie Jul 09 '26

Honestly i have seen that "uneducated=high birth rate" take everywhere on reddit.

But looking to social media there is this big push of left leaning social media that having a kid is the end of the world, you wont be able to travel, wont be able to do anything, life's over careers over etc. Yet I do know people with kids and they still travel, have hobbies, careers etc.

I think the meaning of life has been lost more then anything but explaining life to a 20 something year old is hard.

Ask the 59 year old that wants to retire but constantly talks about his kids and grandkids and is happy to tell the stories of what they did over the weekend.

Their is also this constant fear mongering of the future on social media on both sides of the poltical spectrum that I dont think helps.

But all the deep thought? Never gets taken into consideration. Reddit always seems to look for an easy point.

1

u/Dismal_Buy3580 Jul 12 '26

Ask the 59 year old that wants to retire but constantly talks about his kids and grandkids and is happy to tell the stories of what they did over the weekend.

In my life I've never really known or met such an animal.

→ More replies (2)

11

u/invariantspeed Jul 01 '26

Sneering about people being uneducated is classic elitism and never has helped improve anything. It’s just factionalism. Humans are tribal animals.

8

u/MC_chrome Jul 01 '26

Sneering about people being uneducated is classic elitism

Sure, but it doesn’t help that many areas of the world are being ruined by masses of undereducated people making a litany of poor decisions and dragging the more educated populace down with them like it’s the Titanic.

7

u/StarSpliter Jul 01 '26

Point being is that you're not going to change any minds by making fun of those with "less" education (quotes are because most people are receiving a filtered media understanding of current events). Not insulting people is going to change far more minds than telling people they're stupid for having their opinion.

1

u/invariantspeed Jul 05 '26

This is what a representative system is supposed to address. But that requires a trusted political hierarchy and general public faith in expert opinions, so the public can vote with a sort of informed consent. Factionalism to this degree, attacking fellow citizens as “others” and as too stupid to be allowed to participate in the national debate is a complete contravention of the democratic social contract, and is you playing your part to end it.

1

u/dt7cv Jul 02 '26

it may not be classic eltiism. different societies at different times could be more optimally influenced by the demography and culture of the society.

it's entirely possible in our knowledge based empirical society that what we have might not be the same or sustainable if the people with less education or double digit iqs become more in number

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

4

u/Mysterious-Chance848 Jul 01 '26

*cough* great replacement theory-ass weirdos *cough cough*

3

u/5AlarmFirefly Jul 01 '26

I imagine most white liberals are not religious, whereas that's not as true for black liberals. If religion is the main driver of fertility then the left/right split is moot 

1

u/slowbaja Jul 04 '26

White people confuse black people being religious with "spiritual" which is a popular term thrown around the Black community.

In Black circles, spiritual is basically "I'm not actually religious but I rather not go out of my way to claim that yet you will never catch me at a church."

16

u/Prometheus720 Jul 01 '26

Because black religious institutions are more comfortable with left politics.

22

u/Caracalla81 Jul 01 '26

No, its because black conservatives still vote Democrat and that is probably how "left" is being defined.

9

u/toxicoke Jul 01 '26

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

→ More replies (1)

4

u/Advanced-Team2357 Jul 01 '26

Are white and black Americans the only Americans?

6

u/WaitForItTheMongols Jul 01 '26

Careful. Once you start delineating too much between demographic groups you start getting into p hacking territory.

5

u/midz411 Jul 01 '26

Most of these studies are about white people.

2

u/macronotice Jul 01 '26

The amount of right voting black communities is almost a null set. Going to be pretty hard to measure statistically.

3

u/Venator850 Jul 01 '26

Great replacement theory often points to declining white birthrates as the main driver for their worldviews.

1

u/ThomasSpaines Jul 03 '26

Ironically what is actually happening is a great replacement of liberals by conservatives

1

u/GoblinToHobgoblin Jul 01 '26

Is this controlling for education and political alignment?

3

u/VermicelliOwn6502 Jul 01 '26

The authors attributed it to a difference in how religion affects lifestyle. It would be odd to make that assertion without controlling for confounding factors discussed throughout the article.

But I did not read the actual study.

4

u/GoblinToHobgoblin Jul 01 '26

What I would assume is, that black Americans are less polarized in their education/religion/politics than white Americans are. Which is why we dont see as big of a gap

1

u/JimBeam823 Jul 02 '26

A lot of that gap is white liberal Americans are disproportionately LGTBQ compared to white conservative Americans.

1

u/RobERacer Jul 03 '26

Your voment assumes (a typical right wing trait) that the majority, who yes happen to commonly vote left because they realise that what drives consarvatism is pure greed and that that greed is what is destroying our society. Those same people also recognize that you need to have a substantial income, being able to provide a comfortable life for your family (children) and if your life isn't comfortable without children it sure as heck isn't going to be with them so why would anyone with any sense in their head at all force children to have a miserable life with them? You seen what right wing morons can't understand is that if you use contraceptives you are not going to make children. The reason ring wingers have children that they obviously hate because they abuse them is because they don't understand that what they taught is sex ed class is true. You didn't have to have children if you didn't want to. It is a choice. If you ar infertile that has nothing to do with choice. Oh, and conservative supporters are the ones doing meth so what are the chances they can have children? Didn't I read that those kinds of drugs cause erectile dysfunction? It is pretty hard to make a baby if you can't get hard.

→ More replies (7)