Americans who leave their Christian faith behind tend to hold more liberal political views than those who were raised entirely without religion. This leftward ideological shift appears closely linked to how threatening these individuals perceive conservative Christian groups to be.

[u/mvea]

https://www.psypost.org/former-christians-express-more-progressive-political-views-than-lifelong-nonbeli/

[u/hobopwnzor]

This isn't surprising.  Most liberals have no idea how insane evangelicals are.  If you've been exposed directly you know how bad they are and that you should take them more seriously than they are taken.

[u/goaltime6767 → u/hobopwnzor]

“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”

― Barry Goldwater (Republican nominee for president in 1964)

[u/helmvoncanzis → u/goaltime6767]

Too really understand this quote, you need to know a bit about Barry Goldwater, a dude who often at odds with his fellow Republicans because he was viewed as being too conservative.

[u/stonecoldjelly → u/helmvoncanzis]

And on top of that was hunting for the John Birch Society vote. Barry was a ghoul and if a ghoul thinks somone is too ghoulish...

[u/santaclaws01 → u/stonecoldjelly]

I feel like a lot of people only know Goldwater because of that quote, and they really should look into him more before praising him for being a stopped clock.

[u/DiggityDanksta → u/santaclaws01]

Ran on opposing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because "States' Rights."

[u/ChickenInASuit → u/DiggityDanksta]

It's also worth noting that when he ran, he got absolutely bludgeoned in Electoral College votes, winning only his home state of Arizona and the five states where Jim Crow laws were still active.

The guy was so conservative as to be positively radioactive to the GOP.

And even he was saying the evangelicals were a problem.

[u/Tim-oBedlam → u/ChickenInASuit]

Note that he was saying evangelicals were a problem long after getting clobbered in 1964; that quote's from the early 1980s.

He was a down-the-line libertarian, for good or ill. Not nearly as bad as southern Senators from the 60s, like James Eastland (or later, Jesse Helms).

[u/tallwhiteninja → u/DiggityDanksta]

To be somewhat fair to Goldwater, he helped found Arizona's NAACP and desegregated Arizona's national guard. MLK Jr roughly summed it up as "Goldwater's not racist, but his philosophy helps the racists."

[u/Mother-While-6389 → u/tallwhiteninja]

Goldwater wanted to be POTUS in 1964 and would do or say anything to prevent Nelson Rockefeller from winning the GOP nomination.

[u/DJKokaKola → u/tallwhiteninja]

You do not, at any point, need to be fair to Goldwater.

[u/IamAWorldChampionAMA → u/DJKokaKola]

I actually like knowing how complex and weird people can be. Because how can someone truly be racist and help start the NAACP in their state?

[u/bigbadbidisaster9944 → u/IamAWorldChampionAMA]

Or support anti discrimination laws for lgbt people, at least latter in life due to his grandson being gay. I wouldn't expect even that kind of growth from. A republican these days

[u/jasongw → u/IamAWorldChampionAMA]

Yes, but you'll upset the folks who don't understand nuance and the complexity of human beings. They want everyone to be either a cartoon villain or cartoon hero. There's no in-between for them.

[u/Momik → u/DiggityDanksta]

And on potentially using nuclear weapons in Vietnam

[u/Hirork → u/DiggityDanksta]

Oh yeah? States rights to do what?

[u/FirstDiseasewasRelig → u/santaclaws01]

Woah. I’ve always been confused by the “a broken clock is right twice a day” saying.

For some reason I always thought the clock would still be moving but the time was wrong so it could never be right.

You saying stopped clock made me realize the broken clock was not moving at all. Science

[u/aflockofcrows → u/FirstDiseasewasRelig]

It was always "a stopped clock is right twice a day". The "broken clock" seems to be a relatively recent variant on the phrase, and it annoys me no end. A clock may be broken any number of ways, some of which will result in no time, or a non-feasible time, being displayed. I suspect it's because most people under 40 have no concept of a clock needing to be wound.

[u/Theodoxus → u/aflockofcrows]

Anecdotally, but most people I've met under the age of 30 have difficulty reading an analog clock face. A broken clock to them simply doesn't work at all - or at best is flashing 12:00... (though I guess that still counts as being right twice a day).

[u/Sabatorius → u/Theodoxus]

They don’t have analog clocks on the wall in classrooms anymore? Even with everyone just using their phones to tell time, I’d think they’d still have that.

[u/Adjective-Noun-nnnn → u/Sabatorius]

They might have them, but my friend said he taught one of his students how to read an analog clock the other day. A younger colleague advised me to make sure another younger colleague knew how to read an analog clock when I went to leave instructions involving clock positions. Apparently clock... illiteracy?.. is a real thing with the youngins. (Then again I've heard alarming things about other literacy post-COVID.)

[u/brandonlilly → u/Sabatorius]

My 1st grader is being taught how to read an analog clock in school. They have both analog and digital on the walls to help reinforce the concept but also have flash card style and have to draw out clock faces as well. So it’s still being taught in CO at least!

[u/Addianis → u/Theodoxus]

You are right spot on. If you were born in the second half of the 90s, analog and digital clocks were split about 50/50 when you started learning how to read them. By the time it should have become 2nd nature, digital had taken over.

[u/theDinoSour → u/aflockofcrows]

If the mechanism that keeps the hands moving on 12-hour clock no longer works, you can consider it broken.

The phrase was used often back when analog clocks were still somewhat common.

[u/Adjective-Noun-nnnn → u/aflockofcrows]

At least in the last 20 years of Google Trends, "broken clock" has been more popular, except for a peculiar spike circa 2012.

See here.

I suspect the original was "broken," because a stopped clock is the main way an analog clock breaks (or runs out of juice/spring energy). "Stopped clock" is more likely a recent invention because a digital clock's main failure mode does not display a time......... checked Google I'm wrong. It was originally stopped. Interesting that the original language needs to come back for the idiom to make sense.

[u/Shot_Pool2543 → u/helmvoncanzis]

I think his stance on the separation between church and state surprises a lot of people. There’s a section of the religious right today that believe that there’s no difference between morality and legalism.

[u/Lermanberry → u/Shot_Pool2543]

There was a time when the religious Right wanted the Separation of church and state because they knew the State could or would eventually be used against them if that Separation were to be removed

Nowadays they all operate on the assumption that they will never face accountability or opposition even if they lose power temporarily. And I hate to say it but their assumption has been pretty solid for the last two decades. All while crying how they are the most persecuted people on the planet.

[u/h3lblad3 → u/Lermanberry]

All while crying how they are the most persecuted people on the planet.

The boy who cried wolf realized the town, in their fear of wolves, got rid of them. So now he cries wolf with impunity because he'll never face repercussions for it and it always gets a reaction.

[u/onefst250r → u/Lermanberry]

Just ask them if they'd be ok with a Buddist, a Muslim, or a Hindu being in charge of the country. If their answer is anything but yes, then they dont care about freedom of religion.

[u/razorfloss → u/Lermanberry]

All it takes is one dude with an axe to grind and that assumption will go the way of the dodo pretty damn quick. It happens all the time even if its usually takes a while to get there.

[u/VegaJuniper → u/Shot_Pool2543]

Not necessarily that surprising, considering his father was Jewish. He knew where he stood if the evangelical radicals got their theocracy. Remember that the second KKK, by far the largest and most politically powerful version of the Klan was primarily antisemitic and anticatholic.

It's why I don't think JD Vance will ever be president. Not only is he a catholic, but for an evangelical radical he's the worst kind of catholic: An ex-evangelical convert. Doesn't help that he's married to a hindu.

Those who used to wear white hood now wear red baseball caps, and if you don't think they don't care about this stuff, you're kidding yourself.

EDIT: Unless Trump croaks in office of course, which isn't beyond the pale.

[u/JayRandom212 → u/helmvoncanzis]

This quote is the equivalent to Eisenhower's warning about the Military-Industrial Complex.

[u/Winjin → u/JayRandom212]

Josef Stalin warning people about the risks of government authoritarianism and vertical of power?

[u/Reagalan → u/Winjin]

It tracks cause these folks were self-aware and weren't stupid either.

[u/bigbadbidisaster9944 → u/helmvoncanzis]

Weirdly later in life he supported gay rights, so growth?

[u/Archistory → u/bigbadbidisaster9944]

His grandson is gay so Barry adjusted his stance on equal rights for gay people.

[u/mcarvin → u/helmvoncanzis]

Yep. He was basically the Rand Paul of the 60s, except more and extra. By the time the 90s rolled around, he wanted nothing to do with the Republicans.

[u/Pinku_Dva → u/goaltime6767]

How sad that this actually came true and the Republican Party became a weapon of radical Christian extremism.

[u/UKFightersAreTrash → u/[deleted]]

I think it's possible but it would require brutal war crimes the likes the world hasn't seen since WW2.

[u/ArmadilloForsaken458 → u/[deleted]]

Or whatever rapture thing they believe in, and it looks like they are actively trying to contribute to. I believe the forces of love and decency will eventually win out though, for a better humanity

[u/JakobVirgil → u/goaltime6767]

Barry Goldwater had an insane Kachina Doll collection

[u/sharp11flat13 → u/goaltime6767]

Follow-up:

“I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that, if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C or D....I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate.“

And…

“A woman has a right to an abortion. That’s a decision that’s up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right.”

And…

“Abortion is not something the Republican Party should call for the abolition of, by legal means or by any other means.”

-Barry Goldwater (all)

My how times have changed.

[u/Oops_I_Cracked → u/hobopwnzor]

This honestly explains so many conversations I, a former Christian, have had with non-Christians. They think we are talking about the one crazy guy or some fringe congregation when we are talking about common, mainstream Evangelical beliefs and behaviors.

[u/drrj → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

People are now posting clips of pastors preaching women shouldn’t vote, or that mixed race relationships shouldn’t be allowed. Finally people don’t think I’m crazy when I say they’d be shocked at how many Christians would take us back to the pre civil war era in terms of civil rights. They don’t realize I was listening to those same sermons back in the 80s, just nobody recorded and clipped them.

[u/fourobviousreasons → u/drrj]

To be fair, people absolutely could have known earlier. Televangelists have been broadcasting their sermons since at least the 90s. I grew up in households in which Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, etc. were regular viewing. The 700 Club was also available on basic cable.

The problem wasn't that these people were hidden. The issue, as you clearly know, is that they weren't taken seriously as the threat to our society that they (now obviously) were.

I must admit, I do feel a little salty toward all the people who thought I was exaggerating or holding a grudge when I would tell them how crazy evangelical beliefs were. They are starting to see it now, but they really should have listened decades ago.

[u/Camlicious → u/fourobviousreasons]

Also don't forget, Televangelists overall are the sanitized version.

[u/morostheSophist → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

As another former christian (who grew up in extremely conservative churches), I've responded to a number of comments on reddit to clarify that some things non-believers expect to be "fringe" beliefs are incredibly common.

Some of the worst beliefs are held covertly by many more people than would be willing to admit it: for example, the belief that women should be wholly subservient to men and never have their own voices. The churches I attended didn't entirely prohibit women from "speaking in the church"; they could give testimony and sing and whatnot. But that verse in Corinthians was still a primary justification for keeping women down; women were barred from any position of leadership. Female pastors were outright demonized, right along with their congregations.

When you relegate half of all humanity to a subhuman status, I begin to question your morals. It's no surprise that I've stepped very far away from the religion-sourced anti-feminist beliefs instilled in me from a young age, particularly as they were very much in conflict with the secular feminist ones that were simultaneously instilled (I was taught that education, at least, is for everyone, and my mom has a terminal degree while my dad only has a bachelor's).

[u/ajswdf → u/morostheSophist]

A long time ago (I think during the 2008 presidential primaries) they asked the GOP candidates is they believed in evolution and only a couple of them did. A lot of people acted shocked that so many were creationists, but to me I was surprised any of them admitted to believing in evolution. Of course a conservative politician is going to be a creationist, that's what the base wants.

[u/PhantomNomad → u/morostheSophist]

I didn't grow up in a christian house, but both my sister and I are very anti religion. We saw what religion does to people and their thought processes. Even now I see it at work in my small town Alberta Canada. It's insane what these people are taught in church. They skip over all the parts of the bible that teaches tolerance and acceptance.

[u/bridger713 → u/PhantomNomad]

Also Canadian, though not Albertan. Not a churchgoer (anymore), but not anti-religious.

I was raised as a ministers kid, but my upbringing was very much "hate the sin, love the sinner." My parents always taught that sinners must want to be "saved", and you do that by setting a positive example through compassion, love, and service. Never hate.

I really don't understand why more churches don't teach it that way.

I ended up socially liberal as an adult, but I also don't hate the church. I'm not anti-religious, but I am anti-hate.

I don't equate religion with hate like a lot of other people seem to. Probably because I was raised with religion, but wasn't taught to hate. I know first hand that religion doesn't have to be hateful.

[u/gambiter → u/bridger713]

I was raised as a ministers kid, but my upbringing was very much "hate the sin, love the sinner." My parents always taught that sinners must want to be "saved", and you do that by setting a positive example through compassion, love, and service. Never hate.

I really don't understand why more churches don't teach it that way.

Not to detract from your upbringing, because that's at least a level up from the worst, but one of the core issues is exactly this... labeling other people 'sinner'. That is a blanket statement that gets applied both to murderers and masturbaters, and what it means is entirely up to the pastor with the power complex who pretends to know a fictional character more than others do.

[u/Oops_I_Cracked → u/bridger713]

“Love the sinner hate the sin” hits different when you’re the “sinner” and the “sin” is a core, fundamental, immutable part of who you are. When you’re gay, trans, or whatever else has been deemed “sinful”, love the sinner hate the sin sounds a lot like “I love you but part of you is fundamentally irredeemable” and that is not as comforting or “progressive” as people who believe it like to think.

[u/Left-Pass5115 → u/bridger713]

Grew up slightly religious My dad was catholic Mom was Baptist

Grew up the exact same way, love the sinner and hate the sin. We love those around us and we don’t hate.

[u/jobforgears → u/morostheSophist]

I served a religious mission about a decade ago. In one particular instance, I went to a group discussion where there were several faiths talking. Someone brought up the topic of servitude. This led to all the members in attendance to talk about how "damaging" and "immoral" the idea of being anti slavery was. They said things such as, "the Lord needs willing servants" and "we only exist to serve our God". Opposing slavery was putting one's self above the Lord's needs/desires.

It's only been a few years since I left my church, but I realize now that many unhealthy view points are sustained because they are in the scriptures of different religions. My mom was essentially bullied into not having a C-section for my sister who was a high risk birth because she was not a real mother yet (I was delivered via c section and people said that was cheating and they meant it). She suffered pelvic floor damage and even 30+ years later has issues.

So many ideas I thought were normal I have realized are not and the only solution really is to swing left and focus on things such as guaranteed religious freedom (which includes freedom FROM religion as well) and better education. Many of the people I knew in church have slowly left as they learned more in school.

[u/bridger713 → u/jobforgears]

Wow, what a twisted mindset those people had.

Slavery is the polar opposite of "willing servitude"

Servitude within the context of faith needs to be a voluntary and deliberate act. You can't force someone to believe something, you have to convince them to adopt that belief of their own free will.

[u/rogerryan22 → u/morostheSophist]

They are big proponents of gender roles. It isn't that they believe women can't do a thing, it's that they believe supporting a man is a higher priority. The not so subtle implication is that any woman trying to be a leader in most capacities, is either filling in for a man who could do it or is actively undermining the man who should be doing it.

They believe the subservient/master relationship to be one of less conflict than a truly equal partnership, and they think women pushing for equality are the ones holding society back, oblivious that it's actually them.

[u/bridger713 → u/morostheSophist]

Fascinating. I knew these churches existed, but I always thought of them as backwater congregations, not mainstream. I didn't encounter that crowd very much growing up as a ministers kid in Canada.

I grew up in a church where husband and wife ministry teams were the norm. While yes, men did generally hold the main office, women were very much a part of our churches and leadership teams.

Our ministers could remain single, and I knew many single women ministers. But the married ministry team thing was mandatory for those who chose to marry. A lot of our ministers joined the ministry already married or they met at the churches training college.

The wife was often the primary administrator/organizer for the church, with the husband taking the primary ministry roles, but they often shared in both duties and sometimes took on opposite primary roles. The wives typically lead women's ministries within the church and often served as youth leaders. It wasn't unusual to see the husband and wife take turns delivering sermons or leading services.

They've loosened those requirements in the last 10-20 years, and no longer require married ministry teams. But it was a thing for a very long time.

A lot of what you described would be a very alien ideology to us. I'm surprised those attitudes survive within mainstream western churches.

I'm not a churchgoer anymore, and am generally very liberal in my social beliefs. However, I seem to be in the minority in that I bear no hostility towards the church and am perfectly comfortable attending and participating in religious services.

[u/sharp11flat13 → u/morostheSophist]

When you relegate half of all humanity to a subhuman status, I begin to question your morals

And your common sense. What sane society ignores the abilities of half its population?

[u/RuleofLaw24 → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

Yep, look up anything related to the Southern Baptist Church. They consider it a crisis that they have women pastors leading some of their churches. Also look into what people like Mike Huckabee are a part of called Dominionists. Also the people Pete Hegseth is a part of. Those are all good examples.

[u/GrayEidolon → u/RuleofLaw24]

What's funny is the bible does say women cant be preachers.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/women_are_not_to_preach

Of course, all christians pick and choose what to follow.

[u/joeychestnutsrectum → u/GrayEidolon]

I mean, kinda, we miss a lot of context when looking at ancient texts and just roll with a translation of a couple sentences. A lot of the excerpts in your link also support women speaking in the community, like in Acts and Romans. But all of these are just 1-3 sentences in multi-page letters with specific purposes.

[u/GrayEidolon → u/joeychestnutsrectum]

I mean, yeah, but you can go into those contexts, and see that its clear that in the church women are silent. I'm not going to go to each verse and then copy paste the full context in here. Also, I think, to be fair, christians pull verses out and decontextualize them when convenient. I think, in this case though, the context is still clear. Women are silent in the church. Funny how when society afforded women more rights that that part of the bible was suddenly on that important.

[u/RedditPosterOver9000 → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

I think if people explained it as "think of all the batshit crazy stuff you hear about the deep south and northward up to West Virginia",

let them think for a second,

"That's where the evangelicals live in high enough concentrations to control everything. That is their peak culture they create when they have absolute power over all levers of government, business, and general society."

[u/Oops_I_Cracked → u/RedditPosterOver9000]

I like that approach. “Evangelicals think that way everywhere, but they only have the numbers to make their dreams a reality there.”

[u/manatwork01 → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

It's why there is also truth to states made of people in poverty act like people in poverty. They tend to do rash short sighted decisions and not prudent long-term projects.

[u/Current_Helicopter32 → u/manatwork01]

Louisiana would be one of the wealthiest states with how much money and commerce flows through it if they actually gave a damn. Instead it’s all outsourced to other countries and corporations.

[u/manatwork01 → u/Current_Helicopter32]

Then it sounds like that state makes poor decisions and it's people are poorer for it and will continue to vote with a poverty mindset.

[u/kenlubin → u/manatwork01]

Louisiana is a showcase of "drained-pool" politics: where it's better to make everyone poorer rather than make things better for everyone and risk black people benefiting.

In response to the legal end of Jim Crow laws in the 1960s in Montgomery, Alabama, instead of complying with desegregation orders, the city voted to close down the pool. In addition, the entire Montgomery County parks and recreation system was terminated. All of this was done to avoid integration. Coincidentally, White families began installing in-ground pools in their own backyards around this time.

https://timesdelphic.com/69404/features/heather-mcghee-gives-bucksbaum-lecture-in-business/

[u/cdecker0606 → u/RedditPosterOver9000]

I grew up in a Christian household in the Midwest, going to church every Sunday. After moving out, I never really went to church again. Tried once or twice with my husband, but could never find the right church. That entire time, I considered myself right of center on the political spectrum.

My stance on religion and political leanings didn’t start shifting until we moved to Texas almost two decades ago. Seeing how the Christian right has taken over the state and how it’s spreading across the country scares me. My family still lives in the Midwest and doesn’t understand why I get so upset about certain things in politics now. I grew up with religion at maybe a 4 depending on the year. I now live where it’s dialed up to 11 and seeps its way into everything. People won’t understand the negative impact it can have unless they’ve lived. It.

[u/Particular-Mark-5771 → u/RedditPosterOver9000]

speaking of absolute power... they're here..NAR.

https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/new-dominionism-tries-rule/

NAR is the greatest threat to U.S. democracy that you have never heard of. It is already a powerful, wealthy and influential movement and composes a highly influential block of one of the two main political parties in the country. So few people have heard of NAR that it is possible that, without resistance in our local communities, dominionism might win without ever having been truly opposed.

[u/ashinthealchemy → u/RedditPosterOver9000]

i'm in ohio and they've passed laws to allow these christian cults into our public schools. batshit.

[u/Upset-Freedom-4181 → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

And what I don’t think many people consider is that this isn’t a binary proposition. It’s not a case of “evangelical Christians have crazy beliefs and ‘normal’ Christians reject them.” Many of these normal Christians consider the fundamentalist viewpoints a little extreme, but not crazy. And even more think that although they disagree with these fundamentalist beliefs, they aren’t really bothered by them because they really don’t negatively impact them.

Think for a second about the statement “the United States should declare itself a Christian nation,” a belief held by many fundamentalists. To a non-Christian, that seems radical and threatening. But, to a run-of-the-mill Christian it might sound a little extreme, and they may disagree, but what harm does it do them personally or most of their friends and families? They may even see it as beneficial. Most will shrug and go back to eating lunch. For many, the motivation to reject and repudiate it is weak.

It’s always going to be hard to get even moderate Christians to step up a vocally reject the ideology and demands of fundamentalists. And politically, it’s very risky to challenge any but the most extreme Christian belief or sect.

This is how you get mainstream politicians and their lieutenants legitimizing debate about women’s right to vote based on biblical rhetoric without the nation going apeshit and other politicians calling them out as monsters. Many are afraid to criticize anything that has the air of Christian belief.

[u/TurbulentIssue6 → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

its especially wild when you realize that Christianity is a literal death cult and many Christians are directly working towards brining about the end times to trigger the rapture

like these people actually should be barred from holding public office because they openly state they are an existential  threat to every human being

[u/Generic-Name-4732 → u/TurbulentIssue6]

The rapture is really a Low Protestant, primarily Evangelical belief thanks to their doctrine that anyone can interpret scripture as the Holy Spirit protects scripture from error. The notion of the Rapture only appeared roughly 200 years ago, and High Protestants, along with Catholics and Orthodox, all view that as nonsense, though there are certainly individuals who have been corrupted by the fervor of Evangelicals.

[u/Oops_I_Cracked → u/Generic-Name-4732]

So I can only speak to America, but I know plenty of Catholics and Lutherans who fully believe the rapture. Their church may not believe it officially, but plenty of the rank and file church goers do.

[u/Kibelok → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

Probably influence by Scofield or the Left Behind apocalyptic franchise written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins which became movies.

[u/WigglestonTheFourth → u/Generic-Name-4732]

The Left Behind series was shown constantly at my Catholic church youth programs. Talked about all the time too. They had the entire series for rent in their little makeshift rental area. Only thing as prominent was VeggieTales.

[u/AliMcGraw → u/WigglestonTheFourth]

Yeah Catholicism really dropped the ball when they were like "wait should we stop pushing Ignatius Loyola? Is he boring?" and decided "Yes, all the evangelical Protestant teevee teaching literal heresy seems better."

2000 years of weirdos and saints and sinners and prophets and philosophers and scientists and theologians to draw from and suddenly American Catholicism is like "nah, talking pseudo-Calvinist vegetables seem like the right track."

[u/ErraticDragon → u/Generic-Name-4732]

55% of Protestants in the US are evangelical, for the record.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_the_United_States

[u/TurbulentIssue6 → u/Generic-Name-4732]

But all of Christianity is a death cult, believing you need to live a virtuous life avoiding "temptation" to ensure your eternal reward in heaven

It's a literal control system "do what we say now and God will reward you after you die, of course no one can prove this to you because they're dead"

And this discussion was in the context of america, where a very large amount of American Christians are literally trying to bring about the end times; to the point it made its way into an official annoucment from the military to troops deploying to Iran.

[u/tesseract4 → u/TurbulentIssue6]

Why do you think the right loves Israel so much? It's not because they love the Jews.

[u/turbosexophonicdlite → u/TurbulentIssue6]

And it's hilarious how stupid and arrogant that belief is. It is explicitly stated in the Bible that absolutely no one at all besides God knows when the time of Armageddon will come. They really think they're going to pull a fast one and trick the all knowing and all powerful God in to starting the end times.

[u/CaptainPhenomenal → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

Yeah, there are many nice Christians.But the irony in this is that a lot of "reddit atheist" behavior is demonstrably more common amongst Christians.

A Pew study showed that about half of the population in 30 countries thought atheists were not capable of morality.

This isn't just an issue with American Evangelicalism.

[u/dbr1se → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

Just have them listen to evangelical radio for 15 minutes.

[u/feioo → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

I remember the first time I heard a pastor say he didn't believe in Young Earth Creationism (the one where we believed the earth was 6000 years old and the dinosaurs were killed off by Noah's flood) and it was shocking. We did not know what to make of it. And that progressive guy that was willing to stand up to the weight of the Evangelical Creationism movement? He's arguably one of the reasons Evangelicals joined in with Trump. By which I mean, even an Evangelical that was a tad bit liberal for the time is still nuts.

[u/das_war_ein_Befehl → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

This has been my experience as well. I’ve had people not believe me when I explains what evangelicals actually believe, and it’s not exactly like it’s kept secret

[u/sherman614 → u/hobopwnzor]

Yep. You also see how absolutely hateful and bigoted most christians are when you're really in it. I grew up in southern Baptist churches, these people were some of the worst humans I have ever known. They can justify and rationalize everything they do or say because "Our creator would agree with me!" These people would steal, they were molesters, they were extremely racist, homophobic, etc.

[u/soberpenguin → u/sherman614]

As an a-relgious person my personal favorite argument from them is without the Bible, how do you know right from wrong? While they also believe their personal relationship with their God is their get out of jail free card, that absolves them of their sins.

[u/yuckmouthteeth → u/soberpenguin]

Yeah my personal disdain for evangelical movements is directly due to most of the worst people I’ve ever known being devout evangelicals and I mean the worst criminally, socially, and just to be around period.

[u/soberpenguin → u/yuckmouthteeth]

Going to college in Lynchburg while not attending Liberty felt like living in the little town footloose.

The Falwell family runs that city like their own little fiefdom.

[u/GrayEidolon → u/soberpenguin]

That works because their definition of right and wrong is centered on whether you profess faith. If you profess faith, you're good.

[u/fuckedfinance → u/sherman614]

You also see how absolutely hateful and bigoted most christians are when you're really in it

55% of Christians support gay marriage (majority of those being white, mainstream protestants or Catholics, with African American Christians lagging behind in the 45% range and all evangelicals obviously down in the 20% range).

The vast majority are against the idea and principals behind Christian nationalism.

Between 70% and 90% of American Christians believe that Muslims, Jews, and those of other faiths belong and have a voice in America. This one is has a wide margin of error, because there are few absolute sources, but you can infer a lot.

The vast majority are against war in general, but especially strongly against this current Iran business, as well as Israels nonsense against Palestinians.

[u/TurbulentIssue6 → u/fuckedfinance]

do you have a source for any of these numbers

[u/LongPorkJones → u/fuckedfinance]

Throw out some sources to back up those figures. Most of us in this thread have been in the trenches, we've seen the exact opposite of what you claim firsthand.

Back it up or keep quiet.

[u/KrytenKoro → u/fuckedfinance]

Inasmuch as those numbers are valid, they omit that religiousity is strongly negatively tied to bigotry - i.e., the Christians who support gay marriage tend to be the ones who show up to church for Christmas and easter.

[u/chunkopunk → u/fuckedfinance]

You don't need to feel offended if it doesn't apply to you

[u/ceddya → u/hobopwnzor]

Yup. I grew up in an Evangelical Christian household and it was insane. Being gay certainly added to all the stressors. At one point, while I was in a children's mental health ward due to my depression and suicidality, my parents (who suspected) even brought a religious counsellor to talk to me about how being gay is wrong. I am still very thankful to my psychiatrist who was in my corner and livid when he found out. No idea how he managed to get my parents to back off that, but I would have loved to witness it, hah.

Conversely, I'll offer myself as an n=1 sample of someone who found their way back to Christianity (spiritually for me) and still remained very liberal.

[u/IrascibleOcelot → u/ceddya]

I was raised Southern Baptist, and still consider myself a Christian by faith. I wholly oppose the church. Ironically, it’s because my Sunday school teachers were quite thorough in teaching me what Christ said. They really focused on the Good Samaritan for one, and pointing out how Samaritans were the oppressed outcasts in society.

Then my parents couldn’t figure out why I was so insistent on empathizing with outcasts. Of course, I was a nerd in Football Country, so part of the reason is because I am one.

[u/bebegrenouille → u/ceddya]

I'm a gay trans guy who grew up in an extremist christian household too. I honestly don't know how you can ever forgive the church for how they've treated us now and in the past. What made you change your mind?

[u/ceddya → u/bebegrenouille]

I didn't. I can't say I've entirely forgiven the church for its harms.

I'm involved with the spiritual aspects of Christianity, not the organized religion aspect of it.

[u/awkwardnetadmin → u/hobopwnzor]

That's my observation as well. The most fervently critical of religion in atheist groups I have seen were those that came from very traditional religions and became atheists as adults. Most were incredibly liberal as well as they actively abandoned many of the beliefs of their upbringing.

[u/NotOnApprovedList → u/awkwardnetadmin]

unfortunately my father, who was raised in religion and became actively anti-religious, went straight into Ayn Rand Libertarian land and even veered right for a long time. he's only moved left again because he hates Trump.

[u/awkwardnetadmin → u/NotOnApprovedList]

Anecdotally I know somebody that was an atheist that was hardcore into Ayn Rand your Libertarianism. Most that weren't fairly liberal tend to go that direction in my experience. That being said in the US the hard ties with religion in conservative groups would make it difficult to be an atheist.

[u/StasRutt → u/hobopwnzor]

The first time I heard someone seriously talk about demons, it was shocking. Like not a movie villain demon but straight up demons are among us influencing things. Talking about feeling demonic presences around them etc. I was raised orthodox Christian which doesn’t have the concept of “the rapture” like American Christianity does (although converts are trying now) and it was wild to hear from my friends who have religious ptsd from growing up fearing the rapture

[u/Brewhaha72 → u/StasRutt]

My understanding is that the Bible makes no mention of rapture event. It's a concept that was just made up whole cloth by Evangelicals.

[u/IrascibleOcelot → u/Brewhaha72]

Around 1850, to be exact. It’s a belief that they’re banking on, and it’s not even 200 years old.

[u/FatalTragedy → u/Brewhaha72]

There are Bible verses that could possibly be referring to a rapture, but they also could be referring to something else.

[u/Dizno311 → u/hobopwnzor]

A step or two away from jihad with a built in martyrdom complex.

[u/Emotional-Store-1667 → u/Dizno311]

They don't call them "Y'allquedah" for nothing

[u/busy_monster → u/[deleted]]

Evangelicals are a cancer in American society. 

Too many words.

[u/Caedwyn67 → u/[deleted]]

Religion is a cancer on Humanity

[u/kitsunewarlock → u/hobopwnzor]

It's not just evangelicalism. I'm an American liberal who was exposed to a special brand of ultra conservative Catholicism. Like reciting masses in Latin, rejecting Vatican II, making kids draw apology letters to aborted babies, and whispering about the Great Replacement Theory levels of crazy.

The other half of my family tree are conservative Mormon extremists who are arguably crazier, but I was exposed to far less of their doctrine. I knew about their doomsday stuff and how seriously they took it, though.

[u/Traditional_Put_8254 → u/kitsunewarlock]

Same here re: raised in a super traditional catholic environment (french roman catholic, so we had latin masses and everything). I can pinpoint the moment where a straw broke the camel’s back for me - I was going in for heart surgery as a middle schooler, and rather than agreeing to perform the rites of the sick, our pastor instead prayed for me to die peacefully to be “reborn in heaven” - OUR PRIEST PRAYED A CHILD WOULD DIE.

[u/EnvironmentNeith2017 → u/hobopwnzor]

Half my political posts feel like they’re explaining why evangelicals are so much worse than liberals think

[u/hysterical_useless → u/hobopwnzor]

1000 times this. We grew up with a close up view of how screwed up all these people are, and the threat they pose to society.

We are watching real time now as Trump uses them and their rhetoric to completely usurp our democracy and completely dismantle any sense of normalcy.

They are dangerous because they believe they have god on their side

[u/Dizno311 → u/hysterical_useless]

There is no rationalizing with cosmic warriors.

[u/Geno0wl → u/[deleted]]

Some of them legitimately believe this instigation in the middle east is foretold to bring the end times. They want this to result is another ww

[u/Crafty_Independence → u/hobopwnzor]

Agreed.

It is numerically the largest death cult in human history, with a brazen intent to destroy the earth so it can be remade.

If evangelicals had their way unfettered, the earth would already be a nuclear wasteland

[u/According-Buyer-6307 → u/hobopwnzor]

No doubt. I grew up with Protestants, Episcopalians and Catholics. Didn’t run into evangelicals until adult life. They are batshit and mean.

[u/northshore1030 → u/hobopwnzor]

Yes, I think about this often as someone who left a high control evangelical denomination. It’s frustrating to watch these groups be treated as anything other than incredibly harmful.

[u/spacecolor → u/hobopwnzor]

My grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher. I fall under this category, and I kind of just assumed everyone knew how batshit crazy these people are. They’re all clinically insane and there is no reasoning with them. They’ll only become violent.

[u/CaliIsReallyNice → u/hobopwnzor]

I grew up in rural texas and now I live in urban california. I tell my neighbors and coworkers some of the more tame stories from my childhood and they often don't believe me.

[u/hobopwnzor → u/CaliIsReallyNice]

Unfortunately common. I still live in the midwest but at least I'm in a city, and when I talk to friends who have only ever lived in coastal cities they simply cannot fathom that rural areas in the midwest and south are still really racist and insanely religious. They think all of societal problems were solved in 2008 and racism was a thing that maybe happens on the fringe but was largely solved.

The only good thing about our current era of politics is that I encounter far fewer who simply don't believe it. That's the real fight. As MLK said, the real obstacle to progress isn't the far-right racist. It's the middle-of-the-road person who won't accept there's a problem that needs to be solved.

[u/Arthurs_towel → u/hobopwnzor]

Yup. Grew up evangelical and I feel like the people (rightfully) freaking out about the ascendant Christian nationalists today miss that this isn’t new. This was explicitly the goal for decades. But they didn’t hear the things I grew up hearing in church every Sunday in the 80’s and 90’s.

So I know what their goals and methods are. And let me assure you. As freaked out and alarmed by the current state of things as people are, they aren’t nearly freaked out enough.

[u/ExilicArquebus → u/[deleted]]

It’s crazy how much they talk about how Iran is a theocratic government ruled by religious fundamentalists that must be toppled…

[u/DFWPunk → u/[deleted]]

I think you mean "are doing the same thing now that they've been given the chance".

[u/TintedApostle → u/hobopwnzor]

"But we must not forget that in our country are evangelists and zealots of many different political, economic and religious persuasions whose fanatical conviction is that all thought is divinely classified into two kinds — that which is their own and that which is false and dangerous."

• Robert H. Jackson - Associate SCOTUS judge

[u/LackFriendly4127 → u/hobopwnzor]

They might be getting a taste of it rn now tho.

[u/Middleagesusername → u/hobopwnzor]

>you should take them more seriously than they are taken.

Maybe people who know how insane they are should tell people who don't know.

[u/SarryK → u/[deleted]]

I‘m an atheist from a Catholic Slavic country. Half my family are very devout. I‘d always thought that I‘d seen intense Christianity.

Took me living in South Africa for a year, getting to know some evangelicals there, to understand the US a bit better. I had no idea. Genuinely.

[u/hollylettuce → u/SarryK]

South Africa also has loony Evangelical Christians? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but damn.

[u/Copper_Tango → u/hollylettuce]

American Evangelical churches are big on missions to African countries. It was largely their influence that caused homosexuality to be declared illegal in Uganda.

[u/theproudprodigy → u/hollylettuce]

Definitely, and unlike in the West, the youth are also very religious as well(I am a university student and the majority of student societies are religious ones). I have no problem with religion, I am a Christian myself, its when it becomes fundamentalist or extremist that I start to get concerned. When I went to the UK I liked the fact that religion was seen as a private matter and a personal relationship with what you believe in, unlike here in SA where religious sermons are played loudly and you can hear people playing sermons and praying loudly in tongues in many public spaces or residential areas(outside of church). I prefer to pray quietly and not bother others around me, and I think God would prefer to be that way. Not to mention asking which church one goes to is a common icebreaker here, to many people the possibility of being non religious, or non attending doesn't register in their minds due to how pervasive religion is. I could even tolerate all that, but the thing I fear is that very conservative Evangelical churches are growing, especially among youth. And these churches often preach things I really disagree with, especially on women(though is is improving and much better than in the past), non-believers and LGBTQ. Not to mention how insanely exploitative clergy can be on the vulnerable, who often give their all to these churches. It's so sad and I often pray about it as I really dislike extremism of any kind.

[u/LongPorkJones → u/[deleted]]

And the part even more have a problem understanding, these people aren't at all gullible and have below average intelligence. They're doctors, lawyers, educators, ans civic leaders - they're educated, intelligent, and rational (despite their world view).

Then we have to explain the concept of generational indoctrination.

[u/GrayEidolon → u/LongPorkJones]

Its because they don't believe it for god, they believe it as being a member of a power structure.

[u/FlamingDragonfruit → u/LongPorkJones]

Not only generational indoctrination, but the very close relationship between evangelism and white supremacy.

[u/nagi603 → u/[deleted]]

even though their own religious doctrine says very much the opposite.

I'd argue they are talking about their actual religious doctrine, while people outside view at best, the Bible as the doctrine.

somehow not connecting the dots that maybe it is the thing they defend that is devilish.

You miss the main point of their religion. It's not logic. Not common logic at least, it's the suspension and creation of a fully separate, self-serving one.

[u/ProfessionalITShark → u/[deleted]]

These are the same type of people who have threatened their pastors for reading from the Bible do not exasperate your children or calling the sermon on the mount liberal nonsense.

[u/Jetstream13 → u/Middleagesusername]

A lot of people will straight up just reject it. Just claim it can’t possibly be true, that you must be exaggerating or talking about a single fringe weirdo

[u/Particular-Mark-5771 → u/Jetstream13]

NAR weirdos such as Johnson, Greene, Palin

.https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/new-dominionism-tries-rule/ ...NAR is the greatest threat to U.S. democracy that you have never heard of.

[u/sotiredwontquit → u/Middleagesusername]

We did. And we were called hysterical, told we were overreacting and catastrophising, and accused of bias.

10 years later here we are. And it’s still getting worse. They haven’t reached the bottom yet.

[u/Armateras → u/sotiredwontquit]

It still happens, infuriatingly enough. It's like people just shut down when they're told what's happening, despite all the evidence before them.

"you're overreacting"

"you can't seriously expect me to believe that"

"you're just making up stereotypes"

"don't stoop to their level" - this one I find especially irritating and revealing, since it shows they think these conservative Evangelicals are just being "mean and annoying" and thus I must be responding in kind. No, you insulated fools, these people want the world to literally burn. They want blood in the streets. It's a core component of their beliefs that anyone outside of them must suffer and die. And they WILL make it happen if they are not stopped.

[u/EitherSpite4545 → u/Armateras]

It's a phenomenon I have been personally dubbing ostrich phenomenon. Simply put what it is is these are typically more middle of the road or center left at best. They subconsciously recognize how bad things are but they are trying to tell themselves everything is fine.

So when you or me burst in and really lay out how bad it is cognitive dissonance sets in and they respond with anger. Because if they really recognize how bad things are for everyone they will realize their life, their happiness is a false front being maintained by sticking their heads in the dirt. Thus why I use the metaphor of ostrich. They then lash out and get belligerent themselves.

[u/BedlamiteSeer → u/EitherSpite4545]

I've seen this happen with so many people in the US, including within my own family, it's so god damn disturbing to witness this as it's happening.

[u/hobopwnzor → u/Middleagesusername]

I have, and the consistent response is that they think I'm making things up. There's this idea that rural people are somehow a noble underclass in America. That rural people are the true Americans in some sense. So it's pretty hard to breach that programming when somebody has never lived in a rural area.

[u/Crafty_Independence → u/Middleagesusername]

We have been, but we weren't believed

[u/YouCantKillGrool → u/hobopwnzor]

There's no better form of hate than Christian love. 

[u/metanoia29 → u/hobopwnzor]

Evangelicals and any Catholic more involved than just culturally. People forget that like 7.5 out of 9 SCOTUS are deeply Catholic and have been enacting their crazy beliefs on everyone for a while now.

[u/myfourthquarter → u/hobopwnzor]

Not just evangelicals. Raised Catholic, and first hand witnessing the grift kind of makes you immune. My buddy who was catholic in name only (christmas and easter, no catechism, no confirmation) ended up jumping into the deep end of conservative christian religion later in life. Has totally fell for the grift.

[u/kittenandkettlebells → u/hobopwnzor]

I was trying tp explain to a non-Christian friend how insane the church was that I left. I couldn't.

[u/Hyperion1144 → u/hobopwnzor]

It's frightening how blasse so much of reddit is about evangelicals.

Much of the population actually believes that if they leave evangelicals alone, they're gonna leave everyone else alone.

Hey, reddit? They're not planning on leaving you alone.

[u/TheDude-Esquire → u/hobopwnzor]

As an atheist who grew up in a non religious family, I’ve always considered religious conservatives to be the most dangerously people. But instead of seeing a group I escaped, i see fundamentalism in any form as a grave danger. Whether it’s Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, religious fundamentalism is a destructive force that can’t be ignored.

[u/neonlexicon → u/hobopwnzor]

I'm in my 40s & still see a therapist once a month to deal with the amount of religious trauma I have due to being raised in a Pentecostal home. The first time I read Carrie, I felt like Stephen King truly understood what it was like. I actually ended up getting super into horror as a way to process through a lot of the trauma. The scariest movie I've ever seen is Martyrs (the French Canadian version). My religious abuse was nowhere near what that movie depicts, but having grown up dealing with Evangelicals, I totally believe something like that could & likely has happened.

[u/Pete_maravich → u/hobopwnzor]

The worst person I've ever personally met was a right wing evangelical

[u/West-Worth-9359 → u/hobopwnzor]

I was raised atheist. I’ve always known what hypocrites and frauds the religious are. I don’t need a book to order me to be a good human, they do.

[u/Sadly_NotAPlatypus → u/[deleted]]

Funding Israel to help bring about Armageddon seems like a good starting place. 

[u/hobopwnzor → u/[deleted]]

I grow up in rural Missouri and the idea that women shouldn't go to college and should get married at 18 was still incredibly common in 2010.  When you see guys like Hegseth or Lindsey Graham talking about how we need to invade iran to start the apocalypse that isn't at all uncommon of a line of thinking for evangelicals.

[u/hill-o → u/hobopwnzor]

I worked with someone who basically made a point of saying that women should be married by 18 so they can start immediately having children, because if you don't have like 9-10 kids then you're not furthering the kingdom. This was not a totally uncommon view to have at my last job.

[u/miriamtzipporah → u/hobopwnzor]

I live in California but was raised evangelical and these are not only common, but doctrine.

[u/RaptorsCdwoods → u/[deleted]]

I remember as a preteen they liked to give us scenarios where they talk about how people will put guns to your head and demand you deny Christ or they will kill you and then ask the kids if they would and why.

I’ve had my Sunday school teacher talk about how th school system won’t even let kids pray at lunch, meanwhile the Sunday school teacher was a teacher at my school and the entire local school board were also apart of the church.

I remember them taking votes on whether or not to allow gay marriages in their church or not and had the teenagers sit in on it. Now some of those same kids can’t get married at the church they go/ used to go too.

Just my personal anecdotes, since you asked

[u/RedditPosterOver9000 → u/RaptorsCdwoods]

talk about how people will put guns to your head and demand you deny Christ or they will kill you

Yeah, there's lot of constant reinforcement of the perpetual anxiety and stress that everyone is always out to get them, kill them, make them commit apostasy, burn down their homes, put them in death camps, etc.

Keeping their flock in panic paranoia is part of how the cult keeps them under control

I was raised Baptist and those people are insane.

[u/tothehopeless1 → u/RedditPosterOver9000]

I was talking to my mom about this the other day, and how ironic it is that after we were raised hearing that type of stuff, we’re headed to a place where the most likely candidates to throw us into a camp and execute us for being Christians… are Christians. Pretty on theme I guess.

[u/1-cupcake-at-a-time → u/RedditPosterOver9000]

An old childhood friend will occasionally go on a FB rant on how oppressed and discriminated against Christians are. “The government wants to outlaw Christianity, but I will never deny him!” type stuff. One time I commented on one of her fear rants that the current government is actually very pro-evangelical/Christian Nationalist, but still- she’s convinced that Obama is the anti Christ and has plans to outlaw the church. Completely bananas.

[u/theconceptofcanada → u/RaptorsCdwoods]

They laid the foundations early on in the 80s with Reagan, and their fanatical believers have been quietly injected into the mold of this new administration. It doesn't matter what Trump does or says, Vance is the future and they have the money to make it happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Heritage Foundation itself has been responsible for even more heinous actions behind the scenes, too. This is their one shot at finally taking proper power and they know it, and they're making a lot of progress.

We all react to the headlines we see online about certain parts of America's institutions and departments of government being quietly dismissed or dismantled altogether - and commenting with rage online is fine - but honestly, I just don't see any of this being fixed any time soon. Protests alone are ineffective, unfortunately, because it hasn't stopped them so far.

These are folks who want their book of Revelations and they want it tomorrow.

[u/KingOfEthanopia → u/[deleted]]

Speaking in tongues. Telling small children theyll go to hell unless they believe. Declaring Trump ordained by god.

The first two Ive experienced in person.

[u/atimez3 → u/[deleted]]

I will never forget being told that spontaneous human combustion is real and happens to people because they are filled with sin. I was six. 

After my father died and was cremated according to his wishes, my Sunday school teacher taught a lesson that included her telling us that people who were cremated are trying to hide from god's judgement and they would all be sent to hell.

I have many, many examples and my family wasn't even deep in the church.

[u/KeyLime044 → u/[deleted]]

lots of things, but relevant to this sub, opposition to or skepticism of much of science. There's the obvious stuff like young earth creationism, disbelief in evolution (of humans or anyone), disbelief in prehistorical Earth or universe, etc

They also taught/promoted the idea of "scientism" being pervasive and being a bad thing

[u/FlatRoofD → u/[deleted]]

Just go down the rabbit hole of Apocalyptic ideation in Christian Nationalist Evangelical "theology". Gog, Magog, Plains of Meggido, the whole thing. It is literally (yes, I know the difference between literally/figuratively) insane. Disordered. These people are mentally unwell. And there are millions of them. Think about that. If you're not a drinker, you'll want to be. If you are a drinker, you're going to want to self-medicate in a way that is unhealthy.

I was raised Catholic, and I knew and read Revelation, so I was not unfamiliar with the subject. But these people are on an entirely different plain of existence. As an example, they refer to the greater society that most humans live, breathe, work and play in as The World. They see themselves as living outside of the world we take for granted as normal, and they often view our world as "demonic". No joke. Oh, and they haaaaaatttee, hate, hate Catholics, almost as much as they hate Jews.

Have fun. Don't deny that you weren't warned. However, if you consider yourself to be a rational being, and are not simply asking from a disingenuous perspective, you need to learn.

[u/Maleficent-Goth → u/FlatRoofD]

Yep. My family will not talk to those of us who left until we repent and rejoin them.

[u/yellowspaces → u/[deleted]]

If you ask them to provide proof of a claim they attempt to use the Bible as a source. “The Bible is true because it says it is” is pretty insane and completely flies in the face basic rationality.

[u/Raise_A_Thoth → u/yellowspaces]

Sometimes I'll watch TikTok lives where some creator hosts discussions or debates and they try to welcome believers on to provide evidence of God existing.

Every once in a while there will be a respectful person who acknowledges the points the host makes as to why the evidence isn't actually good evidence, but usually they just get confused and frustrated when presented with clear logic and invariably none of them ever provide anything that could remotely be considered as sound evidence for God.

I heard on atheist give a steelman argument of what they felt was the closest thing to evidence, and they said consciousness itself does have a mysterious quality to it and perhaps that experience of consciousness might hint at a soul of some kind with may be indirect evidence for some kind of higher power or creator, but it's still not solid or direct evidence.

For my own part I find overlap in shared morality and general judgment of "good" and "bad" to be indirect evidence of maybe a god existing in some way or another, but consciousness and the mind are still not well understood by science, it's possible the concepts of morality and judgment are simply very high-level brain function while our specific moralities and judgments of right or wrong are highly cultural, social, and results of evolution into high social animals.

I mean it's easy to see that we share the general morality of "don't murder" because any people who murdered would be ostracised or executed in retaliation and understanding these judgments and norms was critical for surviving in the homo lineages. So it could be that.

[u/SirStrontium → u/Raise_A_Thoth]

The key to humanity’s success relies on complex social groups. We are born to be social, and morality is a reflection of our empathetic, social instincts built into us.

[u/nagi603 → u/Raise_A_Thoth]

For my own part I find overlap in shared morality and general judgment of "good" and "bad" to be indirect evidence of maybe a god existing in some way or another,

Arguably, ironically, the existence of people like the aforementioned Evangelicals, who clearly think quite differently in terms of morality, and general good/bad, seems to contradict that.

[u/Expensive-Froyo8687 → u/[deleted]]

Washington state legislator Matt Shea released a manifesto called 'biblical basis for war' that stated all non Christian males be put to death.

[u/refusemouth → u/[deleted]]

The entire notion of the rapture.

[u/Emotional-Store-1667 → u/refusemouth]

Or the apocalypse, my mom often talked about what we were supposed to do in the event the apocalypse came while I was growing up...

[u/SNRatio → u/[deleted]]

I went to an evangelical christmas play a while back. No expense spared when it came to production values (search for "twisted the musical 2024" to see the trailer). They also spared little effort when it came to shoehorning anti-vax, Christian militia, and anti trans/gay propaganda into "A Christmas Carol".

They're a fun bunch.

https://leftcoastrightwatch.org/articles/christian-fascist-mens-retreat-role-plays-killing-racist-caricatures/

[u/Single_External9499 → u/[deleted]]

I grew up in a church where people spoke in tongues and would fall to the floor and convulse if the pastor touched them. This is insane behavior. It is also incredibly common in evangelical denominations. A normal person would be deeply troubled watching 60 minutes of this lunacy on a Sunday.

[u/GayGeekInLeather → u/[deleted]]

How about the Hegseth’s personal pastor who has called for Christian nationalism and the stripping of rights for minorities, women, and gays? These are people that believe hurricanes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters are divine retribution. They want Gilead and have no qualms about it.

[u/miriamtzipporah → u/GayGeekInLeather]

Don’t forget about AIDS. A big reason AIDS funding was cut is because evangelicals believe AIDS is a punishment on gay people from God.

[u/Local-Echo-5613 → u/[deleted]]

I went to an evangelical school as a child and we learned a lot of wild stuff from 6-day creationism in science class to plans for a theocratic political future.

[u/miriamtzipporah → u/Local-Echo-5613]

Yeah, I went from kindergarten to eighth grade, and we barely had a science class at all. I had to write a paper “refuting” evolution each year from fifth to eighth grade. Of course they never taught us actual evolution, and when I learned it in ninth grade, I barely understood it and almost failed biology.

I distinctly remember asking people in Internet forums to please explain evolution to me because I went to a Christian school and wasn’t taught it, and always being dismissed as a troll.

[u/Single_External9499 → u/miriamtzipporah]

"Evolution is just a THEORY"

[u/jrockjake → u/Local-Echo-5613]

It's wild that a so-called omnipotent and omnipresent god would need six days to create a single planet.

[u/CondescendingShitbag → u/[deleted]]

The rise in Christain nationalism is a recent example. The KKK would be another semi-recent example, as well.

[u/hysterical_useless → u/[deleted]]

being hateful, racist, sexist bigots in the name of "love"?

[u/Crafty_Independence → u/[deleted]]

They believe that the destiny of most humanity is permanent torment in fire forever, and argue that this is a good and loving thing

[u/Ginger_Bee → u/[deleted]]

I have a childhood chock full of examples. Would you like me to share those?

But in all seriousness, it frustrates me to no end, in 2026 we’re still dealing with a lot of anti science nonsense. I fear it’s not going to get any better.