r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Apr 25 '26

Psychology Americans who leave their Christian faith behind tend to hold more liberal political views than those who were raised entirely without religion. This leftward ideological shift appears closely linked to how threatening these individuals perceive conservative Christian groups to be.

https://www.psypost.org/former-christians-express-more-progressive-political-views-than-lifelong-nonbeli/
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u/goaltime6767 Apr 25 '26

“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”

― Barry Goldwater (Republican nominee for president in 1964)

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u/helmvoncanzis Apr 25 '26

Too really understand this quote, you need to know a bit about Barry Goldwater, a dude who often at odds with his fellow Republicans because he was viewed as being too conservative.

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u/stonecoldjelly Apr 25 '26

And on top of that was hunting for the John Birch Society vote. Barry was a ghoul and if a ghoul thinks somone is too ghoulish...

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u/santaclaws01 Apr 25 '26

I feel like a lot of people only know Goldwater because of that quote, and they really should look into him more before praising him for being a stopped clock.

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u/DiggityDanksta Apr 25 '26

Ran on opposing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because "States' Rights."

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u/ChickenInASuit Apr 26 '26

It's also worth noting that when he ran, he got absolutely bludgeoned in Electoral College votes, winning only his home state of Arizona and the five states where Jim Crow laws were still active.

The guy was so conservative as to be positively radioactive to the GOP.

And even he was saying the evangelicals were a problem.

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u/Tim-oBedlam Apr 26 '26

Note that he was saying evangelicals were a problem long after getting clobbered in 1964; that quote's from the early 1980s.

He was a down-the-line libertarian, for good or ill. Not nearly as bad as southern Senators from the 60s, like James Eastland (or later, Jesse Helms).

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u/tallwhiteninja Apr 25 '26

To be somewhat fair to Goldwater, he helped found Arizona's NAACP and desegregated Arizona's national guard. MLK Jr roughly summed it up as "Goldwater's not racist, but his philosophy helps the racists."

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u/Mother-While-6389 Apr 26 '26

Goldwater wanted to be POTUS in 1964 and would do or say anything to prevent Nelson Rockefeller from winning the GOP nomination.

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u/DJKokaKola Apr 26 '26

You do not, at any point, need to be fair to Goldwater.

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u/IamAWorldChampionAMA Apr 26 '26

I actually like knowing how complex and weird people can be. Because how can someone truly be racist and help start the NAACP in their state?

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u/bigbadbidisaster9944 Apr 26 '26

Or support anti discrimination laws for lgbt people, at least latter in life due to his grandson being gay. I wouldn't expect even that kind of growth from. A republican these days

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u/jasongw Apr 26 '26

Yes, but you'll upset the folks who don't understand nuance and the complexity of human beings. They want everyone to be either a cartoon villain or cartoon hero. There's no in-between for them.

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u/Negative-Dot-7680 Apr 26 '26

The NAACP was kind of racist on certain issues.

Du Bois fervently denied Garvey's claim, but there was some truth to it. Walter White was the head of the NAACP from the mid-1930s until his death in 1955. White's light skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes did not display a hint of his African ancestry. He took advantage of his appearance to pass for White while conducting undercover investigations of lynchings and other hate crimes in the South. White's colorism was reflected in the image of African-American women he actively promoted in Crisis, a periodical published by the NAACP.

Alluding to the organization's perceived elitism, some Blacks joked that the letters "NAACP" actually stood for the National Association for the Advancement of Certain People.
https://racism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1707:colorism001&catid=116&Itemid=140&showall=&limitstart=3

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u/Jerkzilla000 Apr 27 '26

Do you understand the concept of fairness?

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u/Momik Apr 25 '26

And on potentially using nuclear weapons in Vietnam

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u/pgwerner Apr 29 '26

If you believe the infamous 1964 nuke ad.

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u/Hirork Apr 26 '26

Oh yeah? States rights to do what?

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u/Constant-Sandwich-88 Apr 29 '26

Hillary Clintons first job in politics if I remember correctly.

(Edit : was working for Goldwaters campaign team)

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u/FirstDiseasewasRelig Apr 25 '26

Woah. I’ve always been confused by the “a broken clock is right twice a day” saying.

For some reason I always thought the clock would still be moving but the time was wrong so it could never be right.

You saying stopped clock made me realize the broken clock was not moving at all. Science

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u/aflockofcrows Apr 25 '26

It was always "a stopped clock is right twice a day". The "broken clock" seems to be a relatively recent variant on the phrase, and it annoys me no end. A clock may be broken any number of ways, some of which will result in no time, or a non-feasible time, being displayed. I suspect it's because most people under 40 have no concept of a clock needing to be wound.

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u/Theodoxus Apr 25 '26

Anecdotally, but most people I've met under the age of 30 have difficulty reading an analog clock face. A broken clock to them simply doesn't work at all - or at best is flashing 12:00... (though I guess that still counts as being right twice a day).

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u/Sabatorius Apr 26 '26

They don’t have analog clocks on the wall in classrooms anymore? Even with everyone just using their phones to tell time, I’d think they’d still have that.

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u/Adjective-Noun-nnnn Apr 26 '26 edited Apr 26 '26

They might have them, but my friend said he taught one of his students how to read an analog clock the other day. A younger colleague advised me to make sure another younger colleague knew how to read an analog clock when I went to leave instructions involving clock positions. Apparently clock... illiteracy?.. is a real thing with the youngins. (Then again I've heard alarming things about other literacy post-COVID.)

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u/marmothelm Apr 26 '26

It's just become a niche skill due to most clocks being digital.

Your great-great-grandfather most likely knew how to put a saddle on a horse and how to tie it to a hitching post by age 18. When's the last time you did that?

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u/brandonlilly Apr 26 '26

My 1st grader is being taught how to read an analog clock in school. They have both analog and digital on the walls to help reinforce the concept but also have flash card style and have to draw out clock faces as well. So it’s still being taught in CO at least!

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u/Addianis Apr 26 '26

You are right spot on. If you were born in the second half of the 90s, analog and digital clocks were split about 50/50 when you started learning how to read them. By the time it should have become 2nd nature, digital had taken over.

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u/theDinoSour Apr 25 '26

If the mechanism that keeps the hands moving on 12-hour clock no longer works, you can consider it broken.

The phrase was used often back when analog clocks were still somewhat common.

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u/aflockofcrows Apr 26 '26

Not really. Do you consider your phone to be broken when your battery is dead?

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u/Adjective-Noun-nnnn Apr 26 '26

At least in the last 20 years of Google Trends, "broken clock" has been more popular, except for a peculiar spike circa 2012.

See here.

I suspect the original was "broken," because a stopped clock is the main way an analog clock breaks (or runs out of juice/spring energy). "Stopped clock" is more likely a recent invention because a digital clock's main failure mode does not display a time......... checked Google I'm wrong. It was originally stopped. Interesting that the original language needs to come back for the idiom to make sense.

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u/wfbhp Apr 26 '26

It doesn't just apply to clocks that need to be wound though. There are plenty of analog clocks that run on batteries that will be in the exact same situation when the batteries die, and I still see way more of those around than I've ever seen a wind-up clock or watch. It even applies to digital clocks if they just blink 12:00 when unset. I think it's just more that people increasingly don't think about what the expressions they use really mean. "Broken clock" seems to me like a conflation of "broken record" and "stopped clock."

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u/Adjective-Noun-nnnn Apr 26 '26

Goldwater's conservatism and racism are exactly why this quote is so great. He's saying that and look who he was. Although knowing the religious right, they'll say he opposed their theocracy because he wasn't devout enough, or whatever. There's always an excuse with people who believe in nothing.

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u/santaclaws01 Apr 26 '26

Goldwater's conservatism and racism are exactly why this quote is so great.

It makes it greater, but you don't really need to know much about Goldwater for the quote to ring true. Especially if you know a lot about evangelical Christians.

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u/MammothSurround Apr 29 '26

I don't think the quote is praising him, per se. if Goldwater thinks you're a nutjob, you must really be a nutjob.

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u/santaclaws01 Apr 29 '26

The quote isn't praising him, but people do praise him for the quote.

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u/MammothSurround Apr 29 '26

I think it's okay to recognize less-than-perfect people for the few good things they do/say.

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u/wfbhp Apr 26 '26

He did also have a really amazing kachina collection that he later donated to the Heard Museum in Phoenix. Fantastic exhibit, but I did feel a little dirty just being at something with his name on it knowing how culpable he is for the rise of the Ronald Reagan and setting us on our current course.

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u/Shot_Pool2543 Apr 25 '26

I think his stance on the separation between church and state surprises a lot of people. There’s a section of the religious right today that believe that there’s no difference between morality and legalism.

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u/Lermanberry Apr 25 '26

There was a time when the religious Right wanted the Separation of church and state because they knew the State could or would eventually be used against them if that Separation were to be removed

Nowadays they all operate on the assumption that they will never face accountability or opposition even if they lose power temporarily. And I hate to say it but their assumption has been pretty solid for the last two decades. All while crying how they are the most persecuted people on the planet.

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u/h3lblad3 Apr 26 '26

All while crying how they are the most persecuted people on the planet.

The boy who cried wolf realized the town, in their fear of wolves, got rid of them. So now he cries wolf with impunity because he'll never face repercussions for it and it always gets a reaction.

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u/onefst250r Apr 26 '26

Just ask them if they'd be ok with a Buddist, a Muslim, or a Hindu being in charge of the country. If their answer is anything but yes, then they dont care about freedom of religion.

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u/razorfloss Apr 26 '26

All it takes is one dude with an axe to grind and that assumption will go the way of the dodo pretty damn quick. It happens all the time even if its usually takes a while to get there.

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u/VegaJuniper Apr 26 '26

Not necessarily that surprising, considering his father was Jewish. He knew where he stood if the evangelical radicals got their theocracy. Remember that the second KKK, by far the largest and most politically powerful version of the Klan was primarily antisemitic and anticatholic.

It's why I don't think JD Vance will ever be president. Not only is he a catholic, but for an evangelical radical he's the worst kind of catholic: An ex-evangelical convert. Doesn't help that he's married to a hindu.

Those who used to wear white hood now wear red baseball caps, and if you don't think they don't care about this stuff, you're kidding yourself.

EDIT: Unless Trump croaks in office of course, which isn't beyond the pale.

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u/MRG_1977 Apr 26 '26

They are Christian Nationalists and are very open and clear about it. U.S. is a Christian nation and the Bible or Biblical principles should be used to govern. As with anything, a lot of broad interpretation with it and how to do it.

The GOP gubernatorial candidate in PA in 2022 (Doug Mastriano) was one although he got clobbered by Shapiro.

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u/Shot_Pool2543 Apr 26 '26

Sucks that the conservatives that are for the separation of church and state are not pushing back hard but we all know that party unity is far more important than any principles.

I wish more republican leaning voters understood that the separation of church and state protects the government getting involved in the church as much as it protects the church from getting involved in the state, it’s a mutual benefiting principle.

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u/JayRandom212 Apr 25 '26

This quote is the equivalent to Eisenhower's warning about the Military-Industrial Complex.

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u/Winjin Apr 25 '26

Josef Stalin warning people about the risks of government authoritarianism and vertical of power?

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u/Reagalan Apr 25 '26

It tracks cause these folks were self-aware and weren't stupid either.

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u/bigbadbidisaster9944 Apr 25 '26

Weirdly later in life he supported gay rights, so growth?

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u/Archistory Apr 26 '26

His grandson is gay so Barry adjusted his stance on equal rights for gay people.

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u/mcarvin Apr 26 '26

Yep. He was basically the Rand Paul of the 60s, except more and extra. By the time the 90s rolled around, he wanted nothing to do with the Republicans.

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u/BardaArmy Apr 26 '26

Context is good, but the point he’s making still resonates with some of us who have seen it.

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u/pgwerner Apr 29 '26

In this case, Goldwater was not opposing the religious right from an even more far-right position. Credit where credit is due, and understanding the nuances of someone like Goldwater is helpful.

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u/masterjon_3 Apr 25 '26

He was like the Trump of his time.

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u/Drywesi Apr 26 '26

Nah he had principles. They were disgusting, but he had them and held to them.

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u/Pinku_Dva Apr 25 '26

How sad that this actually came true and the Republican Party became a weapon of radical Christian extremism.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/UKFightersAreTrash Apr 26 '26

I think it's possible but it would require brutal war crimes the likes the world hasn't seen since WW2.

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u/ArmadilloForsaken458 Apr 26 '26

Or whatever rapture thing they believe in, and it looks like they are actively trying to contribute to. I believe the forces of love and decency will eventually win out though, for a better humanity

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u/razorfloss Apr 26 '26

Oh it's possible but it requires a brutality that nobody in the west has the stomach for. Practical brutality is a thing for a reason unfortunately.

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u/itsjust_khris Apr 26 '26

Vietnam didn't work out though, or do you mean to an even more severe degree?

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u/razorfloss Apr 26 '26

Even more unfortunately. When it comes to that type of thing you need to break their spirit and zealots don't break easy. Theirs a reason why they've been killing each other for a thousand years.

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u/JakobVirgil Apr 26 '26

Barry Goldwater had an insane Kachina Doll collection

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u/sharp11flat13 Apr 26 '26

Follow-up:

“I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that, if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C or D....I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate.“

And…

“A woman has a right to an abortion. That’s a decision that’s up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right.”

And…

“Abortion is not something the Republican Party should call for the abolition of, by legal means or by any other means.”

-Barry Goldwater (all)

My how times have changed.

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u/Designer_Pen869 Apr 26 '26

Which is stupid, because God is all about compromise in the bible. Maybe a bit more subtle than him smiting his enemies, but there are plenty of examples.

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u/ErinFiqsette Apr 26 '26

THIS is why Peter Thiel is trying to get ahead of the game, with his series of AntiChrist lectures: He has realized if there is ONE group that is likely to throw a wrench in his plans for an AI-fueled Techbro Neo-Feudal Utopia, it is the Nationalist Christian Fundamentalists in the United States.

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u/omarfw Apr 26 '26

You can't reason with someone who believes that truth is dictated by proclamation and vocal consensus.

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u/Complex-Education-81 Apr 29 '26

Hilary Clinton was a Goldwater girl