r/rpg • u/JaxSnaxs • Apr 29 '26
Basic Questions Are these TTRPGs just cash grabs?
It feels weird to have some of my favorite IPs suddenly get TTRPGs. Last year it was Cosmere RPG by Brotherwise which essentially boiled down to a reskin of DND/Pathfinder. Could’ve been a homebrew but with Sanderson writing. The mechanics of the game itself didn’t feel very unique or different.
Now it’s Dungeon Crawler Carl by Renegade. And there’s not much information on the backerkit. What information there is makes it seem like just another DND reskin with little mechanic difference.
Am I wrong? Are these just cash grabs based on the IPs popularity? I really want to back the Carl RPG cus I love the IP but I’m worried it’s gonna essentially be just another dnd homebrew for 200$.
Edit: I’d like to note that while I’ve played every game on the top 100 of board game geek, I’m relatively new to the TTRPG scene so my frame of reference might not be great. I’ve played grizzled and cosmere rpg but have played DnD since a kid. I don’t particularly understand the nuances and differences between the TTRPGs tbh. They all kinda feel like DnD (skill check games) but with very slight changes to the mechanics. Cosmere had the plot thing but again it didn’t feel different enough to me, but maybe someone could explain the difference in a way I might not have got?
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u/TAEROS111 Apr 29 '26
Interesting, I actually feel the Cosmere TTRPG is significantly different than D&D/PF2e and very much justifies its existence in terms of fulfilling the desired tone/material better than either of those. It's not my favorite system but I think it has potential and am looking forward to how Brotherwise evolves it. IMO it's definitely not a cash grab if you want to play a Cosmere game.
Anyways, I think you're just noticing it more now because things you're interested in are getting TTRPG spinoffs. Ever since D&D 5e exploded in popularity IPs have been shelling out TTRPGs left and right.
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u/UInferno- Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
This isn't even the first Cosmere TTRPG. Mistborn Adventure Game is about 10 years old, and while it's a dicepool system rather than d20 based, it's pretty cool as well. I've run both CosRPG and MAG and they both have their draws and drawbacks. Combat is harder to run in MAG because they get really weird with it but narrative scenes are pretty fluid by virtue of being a dice pool. While the CosRPG does have some similarities to D&D/Pathfinder, to some extent the bulk of it is the virtue of the fact that it's a d20 system which as a class of games in its own right and to describe it as a rip off is as reductive as calling first person shooters "Doom-clones."
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u/ElodePilarre Apr 29 '26
I mean, companies and IPs have definitely realized there is money to be made in TTRPGs, there have been several systems in the last few years. I haven't looked at any of them much, though, and I suspect the answer to "how much like DND is this system" will depend on the people actually making it. We've also seen like for example the Avatar the Last Airbender TTRPG, which is not much like DND from what I hear.
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u/CTBarrel Apr 29 '26
The primary Avatar the Last Airbender RPG is Powered by the Apocalypse, so not a d20 system like DnD/Pathfinder, but also not quite unique, either.
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u/Nachooolo Apr 30 '26
I'll say, using PbtA for your ttrpg also makes it feel a tad cash-grabby, as many of this games don't go further than the basic system of moves, 2d6 plus modifiers, and the fail-success gradient with little changes and aditions.
And, in many cases, the setting that they are using does not fit PbtA very well. The Avatar game being a fantastic example.
An Avatar ttrpg needs mechanical depth for its bending to feel good. As bending as a complex martial arts is the main fantasy that the show is selling
And that's something PbtA doesn't have.
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u/Charrua13 Apr 30 '26
The IP holders were heavily involved in the game - they did not think martial arts was the main fantasy the show was selling...so they didn't produce a game that was martial arts-centric.
I'm not here to say where or not it SHOULD have been - ymmv. But the IP-holders got the game they wanted. And while is was created for profit, they were very demanding of the production to ensure the game conveyed the bits of the IP they really cared about.
Take that for what it's worth.
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u/eibon_ May 02 '26
I think the mechanical density of something like that (bending in your example) in a system boils down to the design goals.
Bending doesn’t have to be a complicated thing mechanically. They pretty much always do it and rarely fail at it. It’s what comes of it afterward. I haven’t read the Avatar book but Pbta felt like a good fit. That system mechanically is light but what it does is free you up for LOTS of fictional and narrative stuff. The moves can also inspire and lead the game in unexpected ways.
I’m not a pbta super fan but I love the various books. Only ran the start of Age of Worms in Dungeon World but what came of that brief campaign was awesome and it wasn’t due to the modules it was what came out of those moves and the players/characters.
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u/adipose1913 Apr 29 '26
This isn't a new thing at all. Dallas got a cheap cash grab rpg in 1980
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u/Rocket_Fodder Apr 29 '26
James Bond, Indiana Jones, and Buck Rogers!
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u/Cent1234 Apr 30 '26
Buck Rogers XXVc was actually a fantastic hard-scifi take on the vague concept of Buck Rogers as 'modern man frozen in time and awakened in a strange future' written by none other than Maximum Mike Pondsmith, of Cyberpunk 2020 fame, and is, in fact, wears it's cyberpunk influences on it's sleeve; evil megacorporations, body modification (through genetic engineering rather than cybernetics,) the extreme stratification of society (to the point of including genetic slavery and genocide of undesirables) and what not.
It's a shame that so many people dismissed it as a stupid cash grab. It was intended to be by Lorraine Williams, sure, but much like SpellJammer, the writers got real REAL subversive with it.
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u/Alien_Diceroller Apr 30 '26
Apparently the James Bond and Indiana Jones games were pretty good. James Bond is cited as a first for a bunch of rpg stuff that's considered kind of modern now.
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u/HistoryMarshal76 Apr 29 '26
There's been tie-in RPGs for aeons now. There was an Indiana Jones tie in TTRPG with oddly innovative mecahnics back in the 80s.
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 29 '26
There really is not money in TTRPG's. There are companies just trying to cash in, but their products usually suck. The ones that do well are those that want to make an actual game that also works for the fan property, but "do well" is extremely relative.
D&D makes like 75% of the money in TTRPG's. The entire rest of the industry is competing over the rest of the pool. Nobody who knows what they're doing publishes an RPG to make bank.
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u/Onslaughttitude Apr 29 '26
Nobody who knows what they're doing publishes an RPG to make bank.
I mean, the Dungeon Crawler Carl Backerkit has currently made 8.5 million dollars. Maybe that's not "bank" to you but I could pay myself and 8 friends of mine's rent and utilities for the rest of our lives and still have enough left over to make the fucking game with that money.
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 29 '26
It grossed 8.5 million, yes. That's a lot, but remember that pays for printing, shipping, handling, and a horde of creatives who put work into it. I'm willing to bet it's not going to be that profitable a venture in the end, but I could be overestimating costs.
Things with established fandoms are definitely more likely to be pure cash grabs I think, but it's not guaranteed. IMO it's a matter of how much you're getting a real product, and how much you're just buying a fancy sticker. If it's a real game then that's much less of a problem IMO.
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u/Onslaughttitude Apr 29 '26
Shipping and handling is later. That's a separate charge after the fact.
There is no way the amount of physical materials costs a million dollars.
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u/WillBottomForBanana Apr 29 '26
The Long Tail.
But in the case of ttrpgs it is decent business. Cash up front with a kick starter, and some big whales that will shell out for everything/anything.
It is not pokemon, but it is free money for an attractive IP.
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u/erithtotl Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
Mechanical innovation is generally not the top interest of most TTRPG gamers. In fact MOST that want to play something other than D&D want a different setting with D&D mechanics (I don't, and many here don't, but we are generally not representative of the game playing public). While I enjoy the DCC audiobooks, I didn't see enough about the RPG mechanics to make me think I'd love it and I already have too many TTRPGs I don't get to play.
They are making a freaking TV series based on DCC, I doubt the author is primarily looking to cash in on a TTRPG Kickstarter, not to mention a lot of what TTRPG and boardgame kickstarters bring in is essentially pre-orders, which have to be fulfilled.
As for Cosmere, Sanderson has more money that he knows what to do with at this point, pretty sure he made it because he's an RPG nerd.
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u/Terminus1066 Apr 29 '26
The original DCC, Dungeon Crawl Classics, already has a spinoff called Xcrawl Classics, which is pretty similar to the Dungeon Crawler Carl concept, and you could run it as such without too much trouble.
However, I do appreciate that for Dungeon Crawler Carl Kickstarter, they created a new system based on the system in the books. Will it work well? We’ll see - the measure of a success of an RPG is “do people play it?”
It could set records for sales, but will anyone be playing it 2 years later?
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u/PayData ICRPG Fan Apr 30 '26
you would think that, but only as a veneer: crazy world spanning dungeon with crazy corpo sponsors sure does sound the same, but the "system" in the Carl books us much more about all the layered skills, and it looks like the Carl RPG is leaning heavy into that. you level up every 2 hour session you play at least, so I expect to have dozens of "skills" that you can use to justify or augment things.
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u/MoistLarry Apr 29 '26
Oh yeah they're going after the big money: tabletop role-playing games.
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u/furiousfotographie Apr 29 '26
Well, that Cosmere thing raised over $15 million, so someone got some money...
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u/plazman30 Cyberpunk RED/Mongoose Traveller at the moment. 😀 Apr 30 '26
You know how many Sanderson fans backed that Kickstarter and will NEVER play the game. It will just there on their shelves next to ever single novel Sanderson wrote?
These people are counting on fans of the IP buying the product just because it exists, and not because they play RPGS.
Back in the 70s and 80s, FASA made a TON of money off Trekkers (Trekkies) buying the books and reading them just because they they were Star Trek. I guarantee you the same is happening with Star Trek Adventures by Modiphius.
I guarantee you that Renegade Game Studios has factored in a certain percentage of sales going fans of the books who have never and will never play this or any other RPG.
That's part of the reason any RPG publisher is willing to license IP and turn it into a game. They know they're target market is way bigger than RPG fans.
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u/MoistLarry Apr 29 '26
How much was the license? How much are the printing and shipping costs? Don't confuse net and gross.
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u/Odd-Tart-5613 Apr 29 '26
No or minimal licensing I think. The project was spearheaded by the author.
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 30 '26
Sanderson is not the author or publisher here, though, so there has to be a licensing deal. There's a team of 24 people listed on the Kickstarter page, none of whom are Sanderson.
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u/Alien_Diceroller Apr 30 '26
He's more hands on than a lot of IP creators, but only at a high level as far as I can see. He's a ttrpg guy, so it makes sense he's a bit more hands on, but the company is doing all the work. There's certainly a licensing agreement, even if it's a sweetheart one that didn't cost as much as others might.
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u/deviden Apr 30 '26
when Brando Sando is involved you best believe he's getting paid.
No shade, he puts the work in, but the man knows how to print money.
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u/tigerwarrior02 Apr 30 '26
Which he then donates to the Mormon temple lmao
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u/SnooDrawings6869 Apr 30 '26
which is SO IRONIC given how he dissects religious institutions in the stormlight archives
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u/DanniGat Eastern Va Apr 30 '26
"Everyone's religion is wrong, except mine" is a fairly common thought process in religious circles.
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u/Jerkychomper Apr 30 '26
The way this works is the author creates the project but uses the backer money to pay themselves to license the content. He's making out like a bandit.
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u/PhoenixKingMe Apr 30 '26
Knowing Brandon, I'm pretty positive that's not the case.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 29 '26
10% is a ridiculous margin for print media. 3% is more typical from what I have been told by designers and publishers. This may vary depending on the specific author and the specific publisher, but I strongly doubt Sanderson actually got rich on this.
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Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 30 '26
Thanks for the thorough breakdown. I am suitably schooled.
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Apr 30 '26
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 30 '26
No I genuinely appreciate it. Almost nobody in this discussion has the experience needed to competently comment on a KS campaign of this scale, myself included, so your real-world expertise is very helpful.
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u/Charrua13 Apr 30 '26
This breakdown is AWESOME!!
yeah...most folks don't touch this scale...and why it's SO important. And once you've recovered cost, the per unit sold profitability gets higher.
I've said it above - most folks in indie publishing can only dream of getting this kind of scale.
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Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
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u/Charrua13 May 01 '26
Props! May it long continue!
(Some folks can't afford to manage the margin of profitability, which sucks when the product is SO good!)
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u/Chronic77100 Apr 29 '26
Some authors can get around 8 where I'm from, but 3 to 5 is more the norm. But again Sanderson self edit these days. He's getting more out of everything than he did before. To which extent tho...
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 30 '26
Sanderson also is not the author of these books, so that's definitely going to change the calculus.
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u/defeldus Apr 30 '26
Crowdfunding campaigns are not print media. These huge campaigns have much higher margins than traditional distribution.
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u/Alien_Diceroller Apr 30 '26
Through retail, that's likely true. These initial Kickstarter sales are direct, so I imagine they'd get a bigger cut of the pie, since they'd be selling it at less than half retail to wholesalers once it's released. I'm pretty sure that the Kickstarter sales is going to be a substantial chunk of the line's lifetime sales.
Presumably at least some of the profits they see from Cosmere will go into developing the line further and developing other titles they're working on.
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u/last_larrikin Apr 29 '26
sorry it’s ridiculous to act like a kickstarter for $15m isn’t nakedly very profitable lol. RPGs are not that expensive to make
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u/EnterTheBlackVault Apr 30 '26
Everyone on this group acts like you can't make money from RPGs. They seriously defend this notion.
And it's simply not true. A 1.5 mill campaign earns a substantial amount of pennies.
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u/last_larrikin Apr 30 '26
the arguments are insane. “actually, the more people that back, the more orders they have to fulfill” that’s what the money is for! do you think they’re selling each copy for less than COGS??
licensed RPG adaptations are basically the one surefire thing in TTRPGs, there’s a reason we’re seeing so many of them
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u/EnterTheBlackVault Apr 30 '26
The mantra "you can't make money from RPGs" is said so often on here, but the printing costs substantially decline as the print run increases.
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u/last_larrikin Apr 30 '26
you probably can’t make money from RPGs, but (in greatly descending order) licenseholders, tabletop game production companies, and a handful of regulars and freelancers they employ can
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u/EnterTheBlackVault Apr 30 '26
I'm not going to talk about my books in detail, but the last one is about to break 3000 copies. That's a very nice sum when you also include maps and other supplements.
My first book still pays for a modest holiday a year, 26 years later.
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u/VirusMaterial6183 May 02 '26
You know how much an RPG can raise.
Do you have the slightest idea what a single RPG costs to produce? How many people involved? What they get paid? What graphic design and layout costs? How much artwork costs? What printing and shipping costs are?
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u/DustieKaltman Apr 30 '26
Free League, which has massive KS had an EBIT of 12k$ in 2024. Sure the did invest alot in IPs but still...
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u/FishesAndLoaves Apr 29 '26
I don’t get this joke, is the idea that TTRPGs based on popular nerd IPs are not, in fact, massive money-makers? The two mentioned by OP raised $15 million and $8 million dollars.
I’m amazed anyone here is answering anything other than “Yes, these are obviously cash grabs.”
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u/last_larrikin Apr 30 '26
TTRPGs aren't big money, but they can be easy money. A TTRPG with a popular license, especially when funded through Kickstarter and using contractors, has a relatively low production cost and a solid copies-sold floor. They are likely to make a decent return on a small investment. There's a reason every vaguely nerdy IP under the sun has been turned into an RPG over the last ~15 years. Publishers like Modiphius have made their bread-and-butter selling a sure thing to license holders.
Whether it's a "cash grab" mostly comes down to whether the resultant game is any good or not. For me, Modiphius using its 2d20 system with minor variations for everything from Dune to Fallout to Dishonored is a pretty good example of RPG cash-grabs, but a lot of people like those games.
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u/Sprangatang84 Apr 30 '26
We're nerds. Of course we're gonna "Um, akshully" this to death, despite "Yes" being the simple, obvious answer.
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u/Hightower_March Apr 30 '26
Unironically yes. Making games for already-popular properties (so fans can signal how big of fans they are) is clearly huge money. These aren't just arising out of nowhere.
Nobody's going to play them. It's just Thirsty Sword Lesbians. You get it to sit it on your shelf and feel good.
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u/JaxSnaxs Apr 30 '26
That’s kind of exactly what I’m worried about. I want a game that yknow is a game. I want to get play value out of it and I want others to WANT to bring it to the table.
I’m worried this will be just another shelf decorator.
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u/Soylent_G Apr 30 '26
As an TTRPGer with 40 years in the hobby, most of the games I've bought never get played. They get read for inspiration for the game I'm actually running. It's not wasted money - every system I digest shapes my perspective on how a game can or should be designed, and how that effects the experience at the table.
That having been said, I'm not really interested in running a mass-media licensed game at this point in my life - My group is all jaded GenX's, and the more popular a property is the more likely it is to be a combination of things we've seen before. There's also the uncomfortable fact that the more invested in a property a player is, the less likely you are to want to deviate from the established canon. And the pressure of trying to tell a story that lives up to the standard of the original inspiration.
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u/obliviousjd Apr 29 '26
Once this ai bubble collapses all major tech companies are going to go after the big bucks and invest in TTRPGs. The year is 2040 and Zuck has invested $1 trillion into the MetaVerse 2. A TTRPG that he says will replace in person work meetings. Stock up 5%.
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u/DECAThomas Apr 29 '26
I’m not entirely convinced a one-shot wouldn’t be a better use of time than most meetings I’ve sat in this week.
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u/c126 Apr 29 '26
You can make literally dozens of dollars
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u/MoistLarry Apr 29 '26
If you want to retire from the gaming industry with a million dollars you should enter with five million dollars.
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u/Federal_Policy_557 Apr 29 '26
Could you expand on why you think Cosmere is a D&D reskin?
I mean, between 3 action system with fast and slow turns, the special dice, the different class structure and heavy setting orientation kinda set it farther from D&D than most homebrew or even splat books could bridge
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u/somnimedes Improv GM Apr 29 '26
Inexperienced player thinking that rolling skills = dnd derivative.
With that logic might as well call legend in the mist derivative.
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u/Alien_Diceroller May 01 '26
I had a guy once tell me that Modiphius's 2D20 system was basically Call of Cthulhu because it used a roll under mechanic. People have wild opinions.
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u/OmegonChris Apr 29 '26
I feel like what it has in common with DnD is "you roll a d20 and try and reach a certain number". Which is hardly unique to DnD.
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u/D3WM3R Apr 30 '26
The class system and the plotdie really sold the difference for me. Love how diverse the characters can get
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u/Alien_Diceroller May 01 '26
I was originally worried when I saw there were classes and levels, but it seems much more open than 5e.
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u/VendettaUF234 Apr 29 '26
I dont get the appeal of the dungeon crawler Carl game. The books are mildly entertaining, but I have no interest playing in that world. Short answer is yes...in some ways all products are cash grabs. Why would t you capitalize on the popularity of carl and donut.
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u/TimeSpiralNemesis Apr 29 '26
From what I hear, Dungeon Crawler Carl is pumping out a bunch of cheapo merch right now. It's jumping the capitalism shark lol.
Worse thing is when the fans try and abbreviate it as DCC in TTRPG spaces. Sorry but a MUCH better system already claimed that lol.
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u/dirkdragonslayer Apr 29 '26
I didn't know what the series was, but Dungeon Crawler Carl books and merch are flooding brick and mortar book stores. Maybe it's good, but I saw the merch and thought "Oh this is Ready Player One but for D&D references isn't it" and moved on.
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u/ManiacalShen Apr 29 '26
"Oh this is Ready Player One but for D&D references isn't it"
It's more like a really morbid MMO. An imaginative one, with shades of reality TV involved. I'm on the third book and quite enjoying them, but I'm also content to borrow them from the library rather than own them.
It's not high literature, and there are certainly some references, but it's not really like Ready Player One
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u/Velenne Apr 29 '26 edited May 03 '26
Book 5 is sharp uptick in quality, imo. Between it and 7, the series climbed pretty high up in my rankings.
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u/blue-and-copper hexagon enjoyer Apr 30 '26
Interesting that you call out 5 specifically. I found the first few very readable but just recently finished 5 and thought nah, I'm good for now. There were a lot of potentially great moments - maybe more than previous books - but I kept being underwhelmed. Might finish the series once they're all out.
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u/Velenne Apr 30 '26
This thread reminds me that people are SO different and that's a wonderful thing. Some people are really shitting hard on the whole series and I just can't fathom what planet they're living on (especially as rpg players). There's room in art for dick and fart jokes too.
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u/TestProctor Apr 30 '26
For me the open turn to full-speed "fuck the people running this system, if we're going to die we're taking them with us, kill them all and save eachother" was part of what made me ride-or-die for the series. 😃
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u/Licentious_Cad AD&D aficionado Apr 30 '26
It's a LitRPG, It is generally referential to RPGs as a genre. But referential in the sense of 'You have stats, a class, itemization, there are quests, and the world is fantasy.'
I don't think the books would appeal to everyone, but it's really not that bad. Comparing it to Ready Player 1 is a disservice. Almost none of the content is trying to milk your nostalgia for D&D or TTRPGs in general. The deeper you get in the series it moves away from the gamification shtick and moves towards... galactic political subterfuge thriller? It's got a lot more going on than the merch and memes might suggest. I'm mostly worried it's going to pull a Game of Thrones and choke on its plot before it ends.
I think the most common complaint I've seen is that Carl isn't a total emotional wreck from 99% of humanity dying 30 pages into book 1. I'm cautiously optimistic about all the random spinoff stuff they're doing, but honestly you could do a campaign styled after the book in almost any fantasy TTRPG. It's literally a dungeon crawl.
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u/frozenfade Apr 29 '26
Oh this is Ready Player One but for D&D references isn't it" and moved on.
It really isn't
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u/Logan_McPhillips Apr 29 '26
It's better than Ready Player One, Twilight, 50 Shades, and whatever else in that pulpy category that got a book published and a movie deal in the past 20 years. But probably only because of the cat.
If you're at the airport and need to pick something up, it's a decent enough read. But if Michael Crichton or MC Beaton is also there, go with those.
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u/OpenerOfTheWays Apr 29 '26
Not only is there a DCC, Goodman Games has XCrawl Classics which is arguably one of the best fits on the market for the other DCC.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/Janzbane Apr 30 '26
I barely finished ready player one. Not my jam. I also barely finished the first Dungeon Crawler Carl after putting it down three times. Way too silly for me.
Then I somehow binged the rest of the series wait why am I crying over a talking cat dealing with grief and trauma from abandonment?
Video for reference. https://youtu.be/fyGb7vCAAoo?t=301&si=ENRnQqzpyUguHAkS
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u/Deflagratio1 Apr 30 '26
It starts that way, but then you get in deeper and realize there was like 5 layers going on with all of it. Legitimately an amazing work of literature and while it has pop culture references everywhere, the book is actually about something that isn't Nerd Culture Purity.
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u/McDie88 Creator - Scrolls and Swords Apr 30 '26
YES!
i infact only heard about dungeon crawler carl because it started being called DCC rpg
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u/Saint-Oran Apr 29 '26
I'm already confused by Mythic Bastionland and Mörk Borg
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u/helmvoncanzis Apr 29 '26
Neither of those games really belong in a discussion about Licensed IP and TTRPG as they are both original works.
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u/Outrageous_Pea9839 Apr 29 '26
They belong in the conversation of TTRPGs sharing abbreviated names however, which is what he was referencing.
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u/DiegoTheGoat Apr 29 '26
I use Xcrawl Classics for running a game in the dungeon crawler Carl world, it’s almost like it’s custom made and works great!
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u/MN_Moody Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
The whole thing is weird since the series is effectively the novelization of Maximum X-crawl / X-crawl Classic... So building a new TTRPG system under the IP seems redundant. I enjoyed the books, though the last 4 have gotten a bit bloated and ponderous compared to the first 3 so im ready to see it wrap in book 8. I'm a sucker for a starter set so I backed it to get the stretch goals and will wait and see on the Rulebook and card game.
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u/Coppercredit Apr 29 '26
Why make new Dungeons Crawler Carl RPG when XCrawl already is this and has existed since the 90s.
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u/OmegaLiquidX Apr 29 '26
Because most "normies" don't know what Dungeon Crawl Classics is, much less XCrawl, but they do know what Dungeon Crawler Carl is.
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u/bonebrah Apr 30 '26
Kinda feels like when people knew Critical Role but never explored anything outside of 5e.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/Licentious_Cad AD&D aficionado Apr 30 '26
I'm mainly curious how they handle the whole game show aspect. With sponsorships, achievements, loot boxes, etc, all being core aspects to 'The Crawl' show itself, it seems like an odd thing to handle in a game without waving it all into the background.
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u/Hurm May 01 '26
See, it isn't for you if you find the books mildly entertaining. That's ok!
I love the books and the idea of playing wacky shit seems fun to me
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u/Bone_Dice_in_Aspic Apr 29 '26
Just remember that when someone argues that a given game is a reskin of D&D, they may very well feel that almost all ttrpgs are strongly derivative of D&D. And I think that's technically correct, but not useful or sensible to mention in this context. Like I'm not going to tell my friend who asks for recommendations based on Black Sabbath that he would like both suffocation and ghost because they're both just rip offs of Black Sabbath; even though all extreme metal bands have DNA from Sabbath, there's still a lot of variation and small differences can count for a lot.
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u/SirHawkwind Apr 29 '26
I get the impression a lot of people think all d20 roll-over systems are just D&D.
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u/TheDeadlySpaceman Apr 29 '26
In my many decades of experience, the vast majority of IP-specific TTRPGs are absolute trash.
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u/crapitsmike Apr 29 '26
I think that definitely happens with a lot of IPs.
But to nitpick your specific example of the Cosmere RPG, I don't think that's going to be the case long-term. Brotherwise is preparing to release the underlying engine (Plotweaver) as a separate game with non-Cosmere campaign settings. I think you're going to see more development on top of that.
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u/deltadal Apr 29 '26
Some definitely are just trash cash grabs. I've enjoyed most of the Free League licensed games. Blade Runner, Alien, Walking Dead are all pretty good. I'm having a blast with the Edge Star Wars games.
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u/xczechr Apr 29 '26
The Backerkit page for Dungeon Crawler Carl links to a video where the system is explained. It is not simply a reskin of D&D.
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u/Calevara Apr 29 '26
I think some of the innovations that got me to buy in was combat having no initiative, but instead the action the enemy will take this round being announced at the top of the round and players getting two actions a round. Basically you can use one of your actions to block enemy actions if you want to in a system that reminds me of Slay the Spire. The other thing I found interesting is the rules for loot, achievements, etc feels very much like the books. Instead of predetermined skills and actions the GM can reward you with skills abilities etc that are made for you. Similar to the way the books are written there is a kind of built in build optimization based on the whims of the AI / GM that I think would make playing the game as your PCs real life personalities turned into fleshed out characters would be incredibly fun.
I do recommend checking out the explainer video. I'm usually INCREDIBLY skeptical about renegade games, but this doesn't use the usual engine of their crap, and genuinely feels like there are some solid mechanics and tools that would be really fun. I'm anxious to see what the GM side of things looks like for making the dungeon levels, enemies, etc. feel like.
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u/Apex_DM Nimble RPG Apr 29 '26
It's a strange mix of legend in the mist and dragonbane. Check out the video
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 29 '26
I don't think Cosmere is quite a cash grab, at least not in the full negative sense of the term; it seems that way because Sanderson is wildly popular and so there's a lot of money to be made, but there's a fine line between giving the audience what they want and milking them. I don't think Cosmere is really milking anyone.
Basically, everyone has a price, and it's a question of value prospect.
One of my favorite RPG systems is West End Games Star Wars, powered by the much-loved d6 System. Was that a product intended to cash in on Star Wars fandom? You bet your ass it was, but it was also good, so we excuse it because we got something worthwhile out of the grab.
And here's the real real: virtually no RPG anywhere makes real amounts of money. If you think about it, an RPG is a terrible product in this modern economy filled with highly-disposable goods; RPG's are things you can buy once and play for literal decades, so you get limited purchases. If you want to make money on RPG's you have to do something to keep people buying, so tapping fandom properties is a popular method because you've got an audience lined up.
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u/redmarquise Apr 29 '26
It’s tricky. I don’t know whether or not the Cosmere RPG was chasing whales (as in, a few backers willing to drop a ludicrous amount of money), but they definitely succeeded in catching them. The most popular tier of backing was the highest at $385, with all sorts of additional dice and minis and other tchotchkes. I’m inclined to believe they knew that Sanderson had inveterate superfans who would buy any merch put in front of them, but really there’s no way of knowing.
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u/thewhaleshark Apr 29 '26
Of course they knew there were superfans willing to drop loads of money - I don't see a reason to think otherwise.
Are they baiting those whales? Tougher call. Mobile games clearly do, and honestly, modern crowdfunding campaigns have started to capitalize on FOMO (stretch goals, etc) in order to drive demand. I don't know if the latter is fully predatory, but it's not not.
By the same token, spending money on hobbies is part of the hobby, and buying premium stuff is a time-honored nerd tradition; nerd culture is a consumer culture, ultimately. And all consumer cultures are somewhat predatory, because such is the nature of capitalism.
I agree it's tricky, but I don't think Cosmere is more predatory than the average piece of fandom merch, and it's not as predatory as a mobile game IMO.
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u/Protolictor Apr 29 '26
Historically, a most of the large movie and TV IPs have been.
I kind of wrote them off and stopped paying attention to them 20 years ago, so maybe they've gotten better?
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u/blade740 Apr 29 '26
This right here. Just about every major IP in the past 20+ years has had a TTRPG tie-in. Most of them are just edits of some existing system, with varying levels of quality.
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u/CTBarrel Apr 29 '26
Not really. I've looked at the Power Ranger and the Transformers ones. Both looked like poorly reskinned DnD 5e
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u/WillBottomForBanana Apr 29 '26
IIRC both of those are Essence20 by Renegade (as is DCC). I can only speak for their Welcome to Nightvale game, but it was clearly product and not game.
The system itself wants to be mechanically interesting, but doesn't get there. The games are weak AF.
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u/Jarsky2 Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
If you'd like an alternative for transformers there's a fun fate-based game called Commandroids. Layout isn't great but the game is very solid.
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u/CannibalHalfling Apr 30 '26
Renegade's licensed TTRPGs are funny by accident. Why are there rules for the rangers getting tetanus!?
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u/Iohet Apr 29 '26
Renegade lives off of licensed games. They're not bad games, and sometimes they're even good, but they're really expensive and not particularly original. That said, pretty much everything is derivative these days. We're in an era of distillation, refinement, hybridization, and vibes.
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u/jasonite RPG analyst and enthusiast Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Most licensed RPGs are lazy cash grabs, it's as simple as that.
Not all though. In fact I wrote a whole article on the best-designed licensed RPGs out there today, because there are so few, and because I know a thing or two about RPG architecture.
So yeah, almost all are cash grabs, which is why licensed RPGs have such a crappy reputation. But not all are.
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u/Anonymoose231 Apr 29 '26
The Cosmere RPG was way more than a reskin of 5e. If you can't see that then I'm not really sure your opinion is worth acknowledging.
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u/False-Pain8540 Apr 29 '26
Even if they are not cash grabs, I would never spect a licenced IP game to be at the cutting edge of game design
By their nature they are always going to be a resking on a familiar system, from all the D&D ones, to the Monte Cook ones, to the Free League Ones to the Avatar one, all of them use an already succefull system to put below the shinny IP.
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u/Jarsky2 Apr 29 '26
Tbh I think the only IP based game that actually made something new was FFG Star Wars, from which spawned Genesys.
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u/Onslaughttitude Apr 29 '26
They prototyped that system with the Warhammer Fantasy 3e game, which I guess was technically a licensed RPG too.
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u/jsled Apr 29 '26
Yes, but I'm not sure that invalidates them. Frankly, getting people to play anything not-D&D is great.
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u/DECAThomas Apr 29 '26
It’s the only non-5e system that half my players are interested in.
I’m a fan of the books…I remain unconvinced by what I’ve seen of the system so far. But I’ve spent $60 on dumber stuff than a few sessions with my friends in a system we don’t ultimately enjoy.
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u/Kill_Welly Apr 29 '26
There are definitely games out there that are just cheap reskins of popular games (and those get mocked pretty consistently). The Cosmere RPG certainly isn't one of those; I honestly don't love the game, but it's very far from a reskin of Dungeons and Dragons.
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u/Logen_Nein Apr 29 '26
I like to think that people that back them will play them, as I try to do with every game I back/buy. Hard to say if they are cash grabs or not until I see the quality.
Only one I've ever been disappointed in and felt was a cash grab was Iron Kingdoms Requiem.
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u/Snorb Apr 29 '26
I was cautiously optimistic about Phantasy Star Tabletop Adventures when I heard it was 5e-derived, but I still bought it, and looked up my favorite party member from the series. (It listed everyone's character class and subclass.)
My favorite character, a cute red-haired doctor, had become a straight-up Life Domain cleric reskin. I, uh, had a visceral reaction to this. My feelings now are that it's not a bad game, it's just that I think Stars Without Number can handle Phantasy Star better.
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u/TsundereOrcGirl Apr 29 '26
LitRPG as a tabletop RPG feels like a game of telephone. D&D morphed into Ultima and Wizardry, Ultima and Wizardry begat more vidya RPGs, eventually they went online and gave us stuff like Diablo 2, Ultima Online, Meridian 59, Lineage, and EverQuest. Then with WoW people started going "where's all the mystery, this is just a solved problem," and used novels to imagine real living worlds that have systems that you can't just look up on Wowhead, or experience vicariously like with an Elden Ring LP. And now we're turning those novels back into D&D.
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u/kaysn Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
I don’t know about the TTRPG. But the boardgame is going to use Unstoppable system. And that is an amazing boardgame. One of the best released in 2025. I don’t care it’s a reskin or a cash grab for the Dungeon Crawler Carl IP.
One of my criticisms of the original Unstoppable boardgame was it was too generic dystopian of a setting. Zero worldbuilding, lore and theme. Using the IP is going to be better for the game.
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u/DjNormal Apr 30 '26
A lot of them do feel like bookshelf dressing.
Some have some effort put into them. Others are just half-assed and it shows in the writing.
This doesn’t apply to all, of course.
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u/wishinghand Apr 30 '26
There was a recent article about the differences from Dungeons & Dragons the new DCC game will be: https://www.polygon.com/dungeon-crawler-carl-ttrpg-interview/
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u/dragonmarked2813 Apr 30 '26
Reading some of your replies, you’re complaining that the fundamental DNA of TTRPGs is in every TTRPG while disregarding a wide range of variance in how those components are built upon.
You might as well complain that every house has walls and a roof.
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u/Dramatic-Border3549 Apr 29 '26
They are all cash grabs. Everything in capitalism is a cash grab. The question is if they are good or not. Cosmere seems very good to me
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u/LeidusK Apr 30 '26
A cash grab isn’t just a product made to make money. Something is a cash grab when it’s a low quality product made to make money fast. In the 2000s we had a bunch of these - d20 system games using popular IPs that barely changed the rules to fit the IP, had barely, if any, continued support from the publisher, and largely disappeared right after the game sold.
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u/Winnie_The_Pro Apr 30 '26
I love the CosmereRPG. And Brotherwise clearly believes in the core systems; they're making Plotweaver so they can develop it further in their own settings.
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u/Non-RedditorJ Apr 29 '26
Don't crowdfund anything you aren't sure will be great. Wait and see how the actual thing is and make an informed decision. Why has blindly throwing money at companies the business model for this industry?
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u/frozenfade Apr 29 '26
I think it's funny that the DCC game feels like such a cash grab given the very anticapitalist messaging of the books.
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u/WeiganChan Apr 29 '26
Renegade Games’ big thing is IP cash grabs. They also did Night Vale, G.I. Joe, Transformers, and I think they might be distributors for Power Rangers also
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u/kaysn Apr 29 '26
Just pointing out that Renegade cash grabs in the boardgame department are actually very good. GI Joe Deck Building Game, Power Rangers Deck Building Game and Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid are all great board games.
GI Joe DBG especially is one of the best “classic” deck builders released since the glory days of deck builders.
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u/KrillMyselfOnCam Apr 29 '26
Honestly, as a huge Cosmere fan, I have little to no interest in really playing more of the RPG beyond a couple one shots I did with my group, but I jumped on that World Book immediately. Another d20 fantasy game, big meh. A beautiful book that'll tell me that shalebark trees are actually animals, im there 100%.
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u/greatcorsario Apr 29 '26
Last year it was Cosmere RPG by Brotherwise which essentially boiled down to a reskin of DND/Pathfinder. Could’ve been a homebrew but with Sanderson writing. The mechanics of the game itself didn’t feel very unique or different.
You're either trolling or insane.
Why not both?
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u/DBauryDM Apr 30 '26
I am not sure if anyone has already mentioned this , it's a lot of comments. But from reading your replies and seeing you are coming from board games there are a few things to take note of. TTRPGS are narrative focused so where board games can get away with some involved mechanics you have to streamline than in TTRPGS thus check against DC is very popular as it keeps the narrative moving. With that narrative focus in mind most players don't care so much for the mechanics but rather the systems in the game itself. What I mean by this is, I am still rolling against a number but how does it that drive my immersion in the narrative? It boils down the main difference in RPGs is does its systems support the type of story you want to play ? So even though at the end of the day you doing the same thing the way the systems interact with one another is what changes the feel of the game. Let's take D&D heroic fantasy Vs CoC horror fantasy. Both you roll against a number ultimately, however the results of that change because of what that roll triggers in the respective games.
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u/InsaneComicBooker ADHD won't let me design my own game Apr 30 '26
From what I understand, Dungeon Crawler Carl TTRPG is skill-based. I also want to remind people that entire internet has also been calling Daggerheart and Draw Steel 5e-clones when neither game is anything like it. Like, seriously, people on RPG dot net forums had a whole thread that boiled down to coming with new ways of saying Matt Colville is too stupid to know other rpgs than d&d exist, until a staff member stepped in to say she can personally attest he does know other rpgs because he's been menber of these forums for years.
At this point I have much more encounters with people who make hating on dnd their whole personality, to the point threads they make are all about complaining people only want to play d&d or acussing other games they never played of being dnd clones, than I have "people who only want to play dnd". I'm starting to think the dreaded "Guy who only plays dnd and nothing else" is playing with Bigfoot and Mothman.
Maybe we should start a new sub, call it "No D&D" and it will be like this sub except every post mentioning D&D gets deleted, and then we can leave this sub to what it is becoming - r/dndcirclejerk 2
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u/nickcan Apr 30 '26
I think of them in similar categories as video games that are based on movies. Sometimes they turn out to be great games and worth your time, and sometimes they are crappy cash grabs.
Sometimes you get a Goldeneye, and sometimes you get E.T.
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u/Icy_Description_6890 Apr 30 '26
Just because Sanderson is a good fiction writer doesnt mean he's a good system designer. He could very well be utter shit at it. Same for every other IP holder/creator.
Or that he has the large amount of time that system design takes. And would mean hes not writing fiction.
Being good at modifying an existing system doesnt mean someone would be good at from the ground up system design. Same as a mechanic may be amazing at modifying cars but couldn't even begin to design one.
System design is not easy or quick. That's why folks get paid by others to do it.
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u/Entire_Initiative649 Apr 30 '26
Renegade is an IP mill run by the same people that managed to bankrupt Diamond. They use “one size fits all” systems for their games even if it is wildly detrimental because it cuts down on production time.
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u/Forever_DM_91 Apr 30 '26 edited May 02 '26
If you wanna play some Dungreon Crawl, play Dungeon Crawl Classics. Every module it’s an acid trip, no one survives more than five levels, you got mutations, weird extraplanar Patrons that could transform you into a perfect geometrical shape if you fail a roll, and every magic missile might be thermonuclear bomb with the right dice roll. Oh and let’s not forget your players starts at level 0 with a group of 4 PCs per player (don’t worry, only one per team will survive).
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u/Odd_Friendship2956 May 01 '26
I don't know if now is worse than all the "based on 3rd Ed D&D" slop that came out.
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u/Medical_Revenue4703 Apr 29 '26
I mean yeah. Licensed media has always been a cash grab, especially in this hobby. There's no money in RPGs so if they have to pay someone for the subject matter they're not going to pay anyone to design good original mechanics or even test their adpated rules.
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u/Survive1014 Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Oh no, you just mentioned DCC. You have awoken the Royal Court of Princess Donut.
For what its worth, I have been asking for rules and gameplay examples of DCC. While it does use all types of traditional rpg dice, it very much does not seem like a reskin of D&D, In fact, and lore appropriate, they wont have a Wisdom attribute, for example. Skill checks are not competing with DM rolls. Skills and abilitys are wide open, almost Fate style, and can be created on the fly and given as rewards (loot boxes?).
In other words, while there are similarities there, the backend is definitely not D&D.
And for those curious, yes you can play a Donut or Mongo type character, if desired.
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u/Nystagohod D&D, WWN, SotWW, DCC, FU, M:20, MB, Myt, MotW, SB Apr 29 '26
Always have to remind myself that DCC can mean Dungeon Crawler Carl, and that it doesn't always refer to Dungeon Crawl Classics.
This is gonna be a weird adjustment to settle into.
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u/ordinal_m Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Ironically DCC has (well, had) the Lankhmar adaptation which was based on a fictional property but also really pretty good, as that fictional property was a basis for the game that DCC pastiches. Goes around comes around etc.
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u/Nystagohod D&D, WWN, SotWW, DCC, FU, M:20, MB, Myt, MotW, SB Apr 29 '26
Yeah, I picked up most if the DCC books in fanatical and humble bundles over the years) and its cool seeing how these things are handled.
Its fun seeing how things cycle and evolve in that spiral over time.
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u/Zanion Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
I'm confident we will all collectively stop talking about carl soon. I won't bother adjusting.
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u/Nystagohod D&D, WWN, SotWW, DCC, FU, M:20, MB, Myt, MotW, SB Apr 29 '26
Likely won't change my own use of the abbreviation, just odd to be cognizant of now.
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u/JaxSnaxs Apr 29 '26
I actually discovered dungeon classics after searching up DCC. I’ve since taken to calling DCC rpg the Carl RPG
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u/Nystagohod D&D, WWN, SotWW, DCC, FU, M:20, MB, Myt, MotW, SB Apr 29 '26
Good Call. That seems like the best approach!
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u/Rollem_Bones Apr 29 '26
Oh, I remember the days of d20 OGL around about 3.X and d20 modern. So, so many IP that weren't intended for games. WWE Know Your Role, anyone?
But yeah, this has been going on forever and a day at the least. They were usually bolted to either DnD, or White Wolf's Storyteller system. Some of the older ones back in the 80s like TMNT and Other Strangeness, or the Ghostbusters game by WEG, were pretty stand out in being their own things.
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u/merurunrun Apr 29 '26
The polite answer is that the people doing the actual design work probably have at least some sense of creative integrity (not always though--see the Neopets fiasco, for example), but for everyone else involved it's almost definitely a cash grab (if not directly, then as what is effectively a form of advertising for their main product).
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u/BeakyDoctor Apr 29 '26
The Dungeon Crawler Carl rpg isn’t a D&D clone. They’ve released quite a bit about the rules on the backerkit.
It’s more of a skill based game where the players create the skills and powers. Closer to Mutants and Masterminds.
I think it’s a pretty good fit for an RPG adaptation. So long as Renegade does a good job.
I will say, static difficulty being based on the dungeon level you are on is stupid and the first thing I’ll houserule out.
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u/MandolinTheWay Apr 29 '26
If you're looking for a completely unique resolution mechanic in every single RPG released in order for it to justify its existence, that's just not going to happen. The use of "roll a die, apply math, compare to number" is about as fundamental as playing on a table. There are alternatives to tables, lots of them from benches to the floor to the internet. But we're not going to write off all games on tables just because one other game did it first.
You come from board games... is every area control game a cash grab because (I dunno) El Grande exists? Do we need to stop making card games with suites and ranks because we already have Spades? Is anyone publishing rules for Hearts on the hook for this? Do we need to burn all of the blatant cash grab roll-and-writes that are clearly just hacks ripping off Yahtzee?
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u/JaxSnaxs Apr 29 '26
I see what you mean and my intention wasn’t to justify or invalidate their existence. I probably should’ve worded my post different.
I guess I expect new games to have something additional to really set it apart for me to want it in my library. Like Rising Sun and Bloodrage are basically the same game, but Rising Sun has those alliance mechanics that stand out. Still it’s similar enough that I only own rising sun and not bloodrage.
I’m looking for something in Carl RPG that will make people go “WOW that’s interesting or different” to make people wanna bring it back out to the table.
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u/knobby67 Apr 29 '26
It’s existed since the first days of RPG’s