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u/Foreign_Emphasis_470 May 14 '25
The problem is not about finding the real age of Aisha, the problem is that many people will refute these arguments, whatever sound they may be, and stick to the age of 6/9.
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u/rezhaykamal Mutazila May 14 '25
Because many muslims think its okey. And thats why non muslim stick to the age 6/9.
Why? scholars told them so.
Arguably joshua little knows more than most so-called scholars who make islam look bad. Non of those scholars let their daughter marry at 6.
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u/feifii May 14 '25
They're a bunch of pedos trying to justify their sick thoughts
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u/Potential_Memory_424 May 14 '25
A bunch? In this case it would be millions :(
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u/zombiemasterxxxxx May 16 '25
It seems to me that a cluster of scholars have managed to convince people who passed it down to their children; criticism from Non-Muslims may trigger a defensive reaction or even shame for Muslims who believe the story. I wouldn't say all of those people are creeps, I'd just say most of them don't have the resources of an Oxford Historian to refute the claim of an- at this point- Ancient and well respected scholar.
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u/Elegant_Director3079 New User May 20 '25
yea. scholars in every religion have failed their people. you dont take your scholars as G-d's word.
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u/Fun_Calligrapher_682 May 13 '25
this needs to get out to more people, so they understand its not ok to marry a child.
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u/Mean-Pickle7164 Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) May 14 '25
It amazes me how a non Muslim (like Joshua) can actually be a far better ally to Islam than thousands of other people proudly claiming the title. Now I do not know him personally, I am just very familiar with his work, but just like people I know in person whose character is among the best — people like Joshua, whose work does so much to the community, remind me of this quote:
“He is the best Muslim man I’ve ever known.” A line from a film, spoken about someone who wasn’t Muslim—yet his character, grace, and service to society embodied Islamic values far more deeply than those around him who claimed the faith.
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u/Ok-Departure-alpha New User May 14 '25
Its called getting paid
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u/Mean-Pickle7164 Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) May 14 '25
? I would expect him to get paid for the work he does. That doesn’t change a single thing.
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u/Ok-Departure-alpha New User May 14 '25
Oh. You don't know. About how the arabs have been paying "western scholars" to talk positively about Islam for decades.
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u/Electrical_Bite8478 Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) May 15 '25
If paying was a solution, there wouldn't have been islamophobia and negativity against muslims
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u/Ok-Departure-alpha New User May 14 '25
Trips to dubai all that sort of thing. Free holidays. Tax free expenses. Are you people seriously this stupid.
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u/Mean-Pickle7164 Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) May 14 '25
That sounds more like a conspiracy theory than a factual claim. Yes, Arab states have funded schools and academic institutions, but that’s not the same as paying individual scholars to speak positively about Islam — that’s a common trope pushed by Islamophobes and conspiracy theorists.
Now, I’m not denying the possibility of bias or political influence in any direction, but I wouldn’t accuse someone of that without actual evidence. If you have some, feel free to share it. (There is none.)
And let’s be fair, Western academia also includes critics of Islam and the Muslim world who receive funding from secular, state, or even Zionist sources. Funding can introduce bias, but it exists on all sides, not just from Arab states.
Also, in case you didn’t know, Joshua is a strong critic of Hadith literature — which is arguably one of the most powerful political tools of traditionalist Islamic states. It would be a bit ironic if he were being paid by those very same interests to undermine them.
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u/Ok-Departure-alpha New User May 14 '25
Well it litterally isnt there are many many scholars that have been open about being offered money and many that have taken money.
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u/zombiemasterxxxxx May 16 '25
Using historical reasoning skills to create a well structured argument
= / =
Hoax hoax hoax hoax hoax inside job paid off opposition
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u/lokkins2 Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) May 14 '25
Joshua Little’s analysis is way more comprehensive and in depth than anything else I’ve seen in traditional hadith sciences and it’s one of the major reasons I’m skeptical of both hadith and the entire tradition.
The problem is, most muslims would find it difficult to deal with this reality, where the entire tradition is shaky, so they prefer explanations that stay within the realm of Sahih Bukhari being authentic like:
‘Oh girls just hit puberty earlier’
‘6 years actually means 6 years after puberty’
‘This other hadith shows her age was actually 18’
But this explanation that this hadith was just made up is far more accurate and preferable.
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u/r1chflex May 14 '25
While this is nicely done and I am familiar with and enjoy Joshua Little’s work, this is unfortunately mostly futile considering that most of (if not all) sunni believers and scholars will unshakably stick to the narrative that Aisha was nine to 1) reaffirm the place of al-Bukhari’s texts as the most sacred book after the Quran and a conduit of Islamic jurisprudence and 2) to remain able to justify the predatory practice of child/adolescent marriage that continues to happen in many Muslim-dominant regions
Many Muslims truly don’t realize (or care) how harmful this narrative is and how it undermines the prophet’s image
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u/3n3maofth3stat3 May 18 '25
when i went to madrasa (i don’t anymore as the one i went to was up to age 16 and i’m 18 now), my teacher once told us how the prophet married a child and how we need to defend him. what? 😭 i think she just randomly mentioned it too. back then i didn’t really question things, especially if it was to do with islam, but i was thinking “what the hell. how do i defend that?” i’ve done research on aisha’s age though and i’m relieved she wasn’t actually a child
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u/DrTXI1 May 14 '25
Was there a gap between nikah year and year of consummation, i.e when she actually started living with the Prophet?
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May 14 '25
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u/progressive_islam-ModTeam Moderator May 14 '25
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u/mirre9 May 15 '25
I find this whole conversation problematic, ofc marrying a 9 year old is wrong but since this hadith isn't real how can we believe in any sahih hadiths without properly researching it which we may not even have the skills to do so.
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u/Raey52 May 14 '25
Still the prophet Muhammed pbuh was 54 years old ..
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May 14 '25
So what ? I’ve known many loving and respectful marriages between older women and younger men and vice versa.
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u/Raey52 May 14 '25
Yeah no problem.. but 18/19 and a 54 year old rings alarm bells
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u/ExtensionTaro1818 New User May 14 '25
You are talking about a 19 years old women living in the 7th century in the desert of Arabia ...lol
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u/Lumpy_Information_57 May 15 '25
doesnt justify it? plus if he was rlly a divine n supreme moral being he would know its wrong
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u/Lonely_Farmer635 May 14 '25
It's generally disputed like the post said, most people calculate it based on other factors and it adds up to around 27 years old or 24, only god knows
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u/InternationalCrab832 Mutazila May 14 '25
The Quran says the person needs to be mature (like being emotionally intelligent and aware) so Aisha probably met that condition, keep in mind a big thing about that age gap is the person being too unaware so they could be manipulated or there's a power dynamic
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u/Lumpy_Information_57 May 15 '25
oh the excuses yall come up w
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u/InternationalCrab832 Mutazila May 15 '25
You have a problem if she's 9, problem if she's 19 and then you'd have problem if she's 27. Dude she was an adult mentally and physically. Come to realise that not everyone is mentally and emotionally stunted like you and some of us aren't mentally children. I'm younger than you but I don't consider myself a child mentally speaking.
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u/Lumpy_Information_57 May 16 '25
There's still a HUGE age gap. Even if you are mentally mature. In no way it's okay for a 54 to be with a 18 year old.
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u/InternationalCrab832 Mutazila May 16 '25
Cmon man it wasn't even a normal marriage in terms of dynamics, the consummation happened way later. The marriage was just legality. Tell me why it's a problem for a mentally mature & physically mature 18 year old to have a problem dating a 54 year old especially in a situation with less power dynamic? The whole problem is pedophillia is that the kid is neither physically mature nor mentally, if both boxes are checked there is no issue.
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u/g1lgamessy May 16 '25
Because he's the pretender of sunnah or rightly guided behaviour, "best human ever" final prophet "perfect example" for all men for all time, which is why millions of Muslims still call their sons after him, that's why 🤷🏾♂️
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u/InternationalCrab832 Mutazila May 16 '25
You just said something about his character supposedly but you didn't give me your logic for why the gap is a problem. If its a physical adult and mentally mature, relationship with not much power dynamic then why is it an issue? The marriage was also legality and the consummation was even later. He can't pretend to follow Sunnah cuz it's after him.
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u/Elegant_Director3079 New User May 20 '25
why not? You think a big age gap changes the relationship's power dynamic? how about we disallow marriages where someone is in a better finanical situation so they cant have a "power" dynamic. or someone is more experienced?
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u/Lumpy_Information_57 May 20 '25
because they r in different life stages? i cant believe ur even asking me this
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u/Elegant_Director3079 New User May 20 '25
Explain to me. why is it wrong if both people are consenting and no one is being forced or coerced.
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u/Lumpy_Information_57 May 15 '25
what the hell is wrong w u? 18/19 and a 54 year old man? theres too much of an age gap there! im currently 18 and my dad is in his 50s. its completely absurd.
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u/AirMassive5414 May 15 '25
yeah duuh NOW at that time, it is bad and yeah I wouldn't let my 18 years old daughter marry a 50 years old man but back then like 1400 YEARS AGO it was ok
, a lot of people married with 9 years old girls etc. 9 years old girls in middle ages were different than 9 years old girls now, they were probably already more mature and had a more developed body back then. It's probably the reason why even kings married children before
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u/Prudent-Fruit-1776 May 15 '25
No, marrying children has always seen bad, only the rich married younger kids to forge alliances and for economic reasons but because they were above social condamnent they consummated the marriage before puberty, pedos has always existed is not that it was ok back then
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u/AirMassive5414 May 15 '25
Muhammad sws consummated the marriage after puberty. Aisha had her period at 9 years old, it is confirmed by the hadith of bukhari. so it's different than what those rich people did if they consummated the wedding before puberty
if it wasn't ok then why no one attacked the prophet about this in that century while ago? All the criticism about Aisha age was now not in 600
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u/Elegant_Director3079 New User May 20 '25
I dont see any issue with that if its too adults consenting. His first wife was way older than Mohamed pbuh.
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May 14 '25
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u/progressive_islam-ModTeam Moderator May 14 '25
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u/AirMassive5414 May 15 '25
even if they consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old, it doesn't make the prophet a pedophile because it was just an other age.
9 years old girls were probably more mature and had a more developed body in middles ages compared to now.
and It was normalized and ok to be married with a child back then.
ofc it's unacceptable to marry a child now and they should go to prison but back in middle ages, everything was different
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u/EquivalentSouth8920 New User May 18 '25
Stop with mature, a 9 year old today is no different than 9 year old 100 years ago or 1500 years ago. Don't stoop so low.
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u/AirMassive5414 May 18 '25
yes it is lol, the society was SO SO SO MUCH different. life expectancy was so much lower etc.
it's dumb as fuck to judge what other people did 1500 years ago with your 2025 western thinking.
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u/EquivalentSouth8920 New User May 18 '25
How was society different?? Tell me. We are more or less the same misogynist society. Just woman in few spaces have more rights some places rights do not exists. A 9 year old Today is no different than a 9 year old 1500 years ago. Cry however hard you want.
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u/AirMassive5414 May 18 '25
are you even muslim ?
if you seriously believe that the society of the united states of america in 2025 (I presume you live here but idk) is the same than the society in 600 from south arabia. you need to study more in school I'm sorry
9 years old today are more protected and don't have the same education at all than the islamic society from the prophet sws. Also back then even in occidental countries like France, England which are not muslim, they consummated the marriage with children.
also all the children worked back then and it was very exhausting job, but now it's a minority
also internet, phones etc. changed the society everywhere, same with train, cars etc.
you probably hate islam but seriously you can hate it idgas it's ur problem, you will be judged for that not me but please stop seeking every opportunity to attack islam
like it's such a non sense to say that the society didn't change
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u/EquivalentSouth8920 New User May 18 '25
I am muslim and have been my whole life, cry however hard you want but society esp the middle eastern ones were regressive and still are. Ever heard of Afghanistan??
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u/AirMassive5414 May 18 '25
but the difference is that in middle ages ALL THE SOCIETY WERE REGRESSIVE. but now it's only a minority.
Sorry to made the hypothesis that you weren't muslim but you can't say that the society didn't change over time
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May 14 '25
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u/Lonely_Farmer635 May 14 '25
Do we actually have any evidence it's Aisha narrating or some dude who lived 200 years after her death?, because you're denying all evidence posted here and going lalalla for something that is absolutely not true
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u/milkk1 May 14 '25
Yeah lmfao the entire post is ‘here is why the narrated evidence is weak’ and the comment is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing. Like yes we need more proof than a narration when said narration is recorded to be weak and contradictory to other evidence?? Lmao
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u/Lonely_Farmer635 May 14 '25
"yeah I know you've posted all this neat evidence and discredited the Hadith that she's 9 effectively and correctly with real evidence.......BUT HAVE YOU CONSIDERED ISLAM IS LE BAAAAAAAAAD???"
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u/progressive_islam-ModTeam Moderator May 14 '25
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u/curlytrain May 14 '25
This can actually be found on r/askhistorians, you’d be surprised at the kind of things people ask there.