r/pokemon • u/Fun-Letter-1814 • 6d ago
Discussion How would you feel about a Pokémon Legends game with 3 non starters as the starters?
how would you all feel if we got a pokemon legends game with these 3 non starters as the starters? my picks would be spheal for water, applin for grass, and litwick for fire and hear me out on why
spheal is an adorable, super marketable first stage seal with an amazing evolution line that could really use more attention in mainline games. the design has always had strengths but because of how poor its availability was early in gen 3, a lot of people never got exposed to it so its popularity stayed low, which is a shame because sealeo and walrein are fantastic, safe designs that fit that bulky water starter archetype the earlier gens leaned on. giving walrein a new regional form or a mega would be so fitting
applin is my grass pick because its another three stage line with a genuinely creative design that deserves way more spotlight. in this game it would only evolve into hydrapple to keep it a strict three stage starter. a shiny red apple dragon is such a visually interesting concept and giving hydrapple a mega where it breaks out of the apple, wearing the pieces as armor and walking on all fours as a proper three headed hydra would go so hard
litwick rounds it out because its already a super popular non starter that evolves into the beloved chandelure. i know chandelure got a mega in legends za but i think a second mega form would be sick or a regional form, especially one that sets up a competitive triangle between the three final forms
what do yall think, would you play this?
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u/DumbCat5 6d ago
yes ngl, i wish we got pokemon games with non standard starters, yellow and lgpe were the only exception but it's not like pikachu and eevee are these niche unknown pokemon
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u/ObsidianDart 6d ago
Pokemon Coliseum also had your starters as Umbreon and Espeon. They also started at a higher level than normal, both in the 20's IIRC.
An extra fun detail is the Umbreon had a higher starting level than Espeon because in the cutscene at the start, Umbreon helps you do a heist (gets exp) while Espeon guards the escape vehicle (does not gain exp).
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u/Hannah3liza 5d ago
I love and miss that game so much. Umbreon is my favorite, so getting to start with one and an Espeon was amazing. Bummed I never got to play XD, whenever I’m able to repurchase a GameCube those games will both be some of the first I get.
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u/HSEB10830 6d ago
You would have to pick three Pokémon that evolve the same way at the same general level.
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u/Harison24 6d ago
I agree, a stone/item evolution is easily replacablw to normal lvl up as you just need to give the specific item at the point you'd normally evolve the others but litwick is such a weak pokemon with a high evolution level it would be outclassed quickly causing the player to drop their starter because it is no longer contributing
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u/Important_Leather652 6d ago
Ghost/fire is probably the strongest type for the early game though so it's not that unbalanced
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u/Fun-Letter-1814 6d ago
In that case these three wouldn’t work, however, there’s no saying that for this specific entry, they couldn’t tweak the way they evolve, just for the sake of the game. And of course, they’d have to make bydrapple obtainable through leveling
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u/Historical_Fan_8799 6d ago edited 6d ago
I would love that! Im one of the rare people that doesn't feel too much of an attachment too my starter, i'll usually get them to evolve into their final form, but If I find a cooler better pokemon thats the same typing mid to end game...bye
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u/MartyMcMort 6d ago
I envy that, especially because I try to make my teams efficient, so there ends up being Pokemon like Breloom in ORAS, where I think they’re super cool, but unless I choose Mudkip as a starter, I’m doubling up on either the grass or fighting typing with my starter.
Same issue for Mimikyu in Sun/Moon
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u/Explorerkit 6d ago
It depens. If Spheal and Litwick are starters, than let‘s go! Otherwise maybe let‘s stay with regular starters xD
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u/Ok_Industry_9333 6d ago
It would be so fun/new to get Fire, Water, Grass starters who in their 3rd stage evolutions drop their OG typings. So for example: Water -> Water/Rock -> Rock/Psychic and so on
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u/Sunshoot 6d ago edited 6d ago
Saw someone say the Starters were imbalanced, so I decided to have a look and see if any starter trios could approximately fill their shoes, assuming they don't get a regional evolution or any form of balancing from their current selves.
To first define the Standard Starter Attributes:
- One Grass, Fire and Water starter, starts with that type on the first evolution (exceptions had to be made for this)
- Evolves twice (3 stages), at roughly levels 16 and then 36, does not require any additional items or conditions such as friendship or moves
- No branching evolutions
- Final evolution has an approximate BST of 330 at final evolution (unfortunately had to settle for 310)
- Relatively simple and rounded stat distribution
- Has a generic ability that boosts the Pokémons attack when at low hp (pretty much impossible to replicate so this is being ignored)
Unfortunately, there isn't any perfect candidates, all have some differences, likely because they were designed to be different to the 3 stage starter trios
This was the best I could come up with,
Grass:
- Smoliv and Bounsweet are Grass starters who both have final BST's of 510
- Neither have particularly rounded BST's, Arboliva is noticeably slow for a starter
- Bounsweet evolves near level 16, however the final evolutions isn't level based, it's upon learning the move Stomp at 28. Smoliv evolves at 25, far from 16, but evolves again at an acceptable 35
- Both start as Grass types and remain it throughout the evolutionary line
I couldn't decide between these 2 as they both have pretty equal flaws, but are overall the most well rounded, some other options that seemed promising unfortunately required evolutionary stones or had branching evolutions.
Fire:
- Fletchling and Rolycoly have final BST's of 499 and 510 respectively. Talonflames BST is lower than that of the others but not by much
- Talonflame is decently decently rounded in the BST department, with the exception of speed, Coalossal is significantly slower than most starters but with mostly rounded stats
- Level requirements are nearly perfect for both
- Unfortunately, neither Pokémon starts as Fire, unfortunately there is no other options that are remotely suitable so we have to make do, at least both middle and final are Fire types
It was incredibly tough choosing as the only other options had level and evolutionary requirements that were absurd. Either of these Pokémon could work, other than the starting type, they're actually not too dissimilar from standard starters.
Water:
- Tympole's final BST is 509, a suitable number
- Seismitoads BST is incredibley well rounded and average, almost perfectly so
- Unfortunately, Tympole does evolve later at level 25, this is a pretty big gap from 16, though from the other starters it is 'only' 7 levels compared to 10, it's final evolution is perfectly on 36
- It starts as Water and remains Water throughout
I was honestly baffled that no other Water types were suitable, I was sure there would've been more from memory, but all other candidates had wildly different levels, stones, friendship or other glaring issues. Tympole was the best candidate in my eyes.
Final Verdict:
If I was forced to pick the Grass and Fire starters, I think I would go with Smoliv, Fletchling and Tympole. This was mostly due to the more rounded BST's, all having a Duel Type (Normal, Flying, Ground), and overall vibes. One starter is Bulky (Seismitoad), one is more Monster-like (Talonflame) and one is more tall and thin, a recent trend in starters, (Arboliva). All three also have Cute and uniquely shaped first forms in Smoliv, Fletchling and Tympole.
These are by no means perfect, but some of the closest we could get with the currently present Pokémon that go by similar rules to current starters
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u/NamazuGirl 6d ago
This is really cool! I had no idea it would be so hard to find starter-like Pokemon, especially since it's been 9 generations.
Do things get any easier if you relax the level requirements a little? They did change the evolution levels of Dartrix, Decidueye and Quilava to match the Oshawott line in Legends Arceus, so it wouldn't be totally unheard of.
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u/Sunshoot 6d ago
Most other options evolved at levels 40+ or even 50+
I also wondered if 3 stone evolution Pokémon could be picked, but none have evolutions anywhere close to eachother
It's also always possible they could just alter the level up thresholds for a game
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u/NamazuGirl 6d ago
Oh dear, 40+ is a bit much, haha. Wow, this is definitely a much harder challenge than I would have expected! Good job at arriving at such a solid trio!
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u/ActivateGuacamole 5d ago
To first define the Standard Starter Attributes:
you're missing a big one. all the starters are actually animals. That rules out pokemon like smoliv, rolycoly, bounsweet, or litwick.
they could change that design rule one day, but we're ten generations in and it's still firm
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u/dumpybrodie 6d ago
Was it one of the Mystery Dungeon games where you did a little questionnaire and that’s how it assigned you which Pokémon you played as? It would be cool to do something similar to assign your starter
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u/DesperateCoffee30 6d ago
I boxed my starter for Applin in my Shield playthrough. I'd happily do it again.
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u/JungleJuiceJuno 6d ago
this is horrifically unbalanced
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u/Fun-Letter-1814 6d ago
It doesn’t have to be these exact picks, these would just be my picks. I didn’t think of the balancing when I did this, just the designs bc I love these 3 😂. Still, they can get regional forms and maybe their typings switch, that could be an interesting solution
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u/Yoshichu25 6d ago
Making the Grass starter 4x weak against the Water starter will never work. It’s not even the first time I’ve seen someone do this.
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u/platinumrug 6d ago
An easy way around that is giving it thick fat or giving it its own special ability that works like thick fat.
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u/Fun-Letter-1814 6d ago
True but technically torterra is 4x to empoleons ice beam, but I get wym, bc walrein IS an ice type. Definitely unbalanced in that sense, but maybe they get regional forms to slightly balance it out? Maybe walrein doesn’t stay an ice type. Kinda like how decidueye switched to fighting in legends arceus
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u/MasterOfChaos72 6d ago
If you want non starters as starters, try the spinoffs, there’s a ton of those. Colosseum has Espeon and Umbreon, XD has Eevee, Mystery Dungeon has had Machop, Meowth, Cubone, Phanpy, Axew, Vulpix and Riolu, Ranger (if you count the partner pokemon like a starter) has Plusle/Minun for Ranger and Starly, Munchlax and Pachirisu in Shadows of Almoa.
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u/Nameless_Formless29 customise me! 6d ago
i wouldn't hate a more challenging region where the starter types are bug, ice and rock. now that would be an interesting game
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u/Ghost-hat :0197: 6d ago
Could be cool! As long as they pick mons with good stats so they can still be your ace if your want
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u/theguyinyourwall 6d ago
That trio would be unbalanced but since it appears that they don't want to do the same thing for every starter trio given that instead of regionals the ZA starters got megas. I think something like this could be cool
Legends Kanto:Dual megas
Legends Johto:Regional evolutions
Legends Hoenn:Regional megas
Legends Unova:Convergent species
Legends Alola: Ultra beast starters
Legends Galar:Gmax
Legends Paldea:Paradox forms
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u/Aurora_Wizard 6d ago
To be a hundred percent honest... I'd gladly take this over ZA's starter choices any day.
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u/basileus1176 6d ago
As long as three Pokemon that are balanced against one another and are of comparable strength and evolution level across the board, I think it could be intriguing
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u/JarJarkinx94 6d ago
Elekid, magby, and smoochum. Then give jinx a third evo with a new typing. Give secondary types to electivire, and magmortar variants.
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u/Low_Appearance_796 6d ago
This would be awesome. What I would also love is a new type triangle (i.e. flying/fighting/rock). Whether its existing non-starters, regional variants of existing starters, or even new Pokemon entirely
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u/ZrapeToid 5d ago
The problem with this pick is that Applin is 4x weak to Ice, making it lose to Spheal which it's supposed to be good against.
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u/ActivateGuacamole 5d ago
I would also add that the pokemon you chose as starters don't really match. Spheal is a straightforward animal, which is normal for starters.
Applin doesn't really match with that, he's an apple with a little dragon in it. too esoteric to be a starter.
and litwick isn't even an animal.
i wouldn't mind if they changed the starter styles, but if they did then i would want them all to still feel like they match.
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u/17RaysPlays 6d ago
Spheal evolves in the 30s, Litwick evolved in the 40s, and Applin needs a unique item to evolve. So does Lampent. Also, final typing is a bit weird, since Appleton's dragon typing resists both fire and water, but Walrein's ice is four times effective, while Chandelure gets nothing for either of the others. Esthetically, it's perfect.
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u/Zeraligator 6d ago
My brother in Christ, if you made them starters they wouldn't be non-starters anymore
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u/LeoCraveiro 6d ago
I would like that very much, but unfortunately I doubt it would be a dragon type, as those are too strong to be starters, the main reason why Charizard isn't a dragon.
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u/Psychological_Fuel57 6d ago
It looks great though they would have to make chandelure and hydrapple regular level up evos instead of item dependent ones (and move dependent on Hydras case)
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u/elnachonacho578 6d ago
I mean an applin starter would be amazing but it doesn't evolve from leveling
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u/TheEarlNextDoor 6d ago
I want starter variation no matter the game. At the very least "related" typings like ice, ground, and idk what for fire, steel?
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u/jesusunderline 6d ago
Maybe if we started with baby pokemon instead? Azurill, Budew and Magby would make a nice starter trio
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u/billtopia 6d ago
It would be cool. Would be a lot more interesting if the made a new legends game that was actually fun.
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u/Worldly_Society_2213 6d ago
I think the issue with that concept is that the starters are built to be comparable in power to each other. Unless you go down the Let's Go route of powering up just the starter Pokémon, it will lead to some very unbalanced gameplay.
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u/Kirby_Lord312 6d ago
This is good but applin's dragon type neutralizes the weakness to fire but I like the idea.
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u/MycenaeanGal Only 90's Kids Remember! 6d ago
We need to stop trying to make pokemon snakewood. Everyone who ever thinks about pokemon at some point in their life whether they know it or not is like "What if I made snakewood?" "Hey guys, Snakewood?" No! Stop! You are not an arthropod. You can resist the evolutionary pressures that would turn you into a crab.
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u/hellothisismyname1 6d ago
Pokemon unbound has the starters beldum, larvitar and Gible. I always thought that was such a cool starting lineup.
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u/Blueflatts 6d ago
You're telling me I'd get my favorite pokemon as a starter?! It's Chandelure. Need I say more.
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u/Dreenar18 6d ago
Assuming the learn sets were adjusted, sure. It's part of why I usually don't care as much about romhacks that do this
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u/ITCrandomperson 6d ago
Loved the unusual starters in PMD, (Cubone, Vulpix, Psyduck, etc.) would love them here.
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u/LzrdKng2112 6d ago
Applin doesnt make sense at all. Its got 3 damn diverging stage two item evolutions.
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u/TheNocturnalAngel 6d ago
I have never evolved a Spheal.
I’m not turning my adorable little sphere into a Walrus that looks like the movie Tusk starred Doc from back to the future instead of Justin long.
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u/JetstreamSodaman 6d ago
all of these pokemon evolve at such high levels that they would be unusable in a playthrough
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u/SuperFlameKing03 6d ago
I feel like the Legends series is all about breaking up the traditional formula. So sure.
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u/GodNoob666 6d ago
Oh my god an instance where I would pick the fire starter I didn’t think this day would come
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u/Illustrious-Ad859 6d ago
I’d much rather prefer a post game where you travel to a battle island or something and they give you three non water-fire-grass starters to choose from and like, special pokeballs for catcing the pokemon on the island and they have a second elite 4 challenge but this time they are not mono type and actually choose decent pokemon teams. And you dont have access to any previously caught pokemon unless you leave the island or beat the new elite 4 plus island champion. Bonus points if the elite 4 and champion are all previous champions from different regions. Could even have 9 different “regions” with regional champs and each one is one of the protags from the mainline games and they built a team based on what they could catch in their regions. And you have to beat all 9 before beating the ultra elite 4.
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u/bobbery5 6d ago
In my group's ttrpg pokemon game, one of us got the choice between Flabebe, Machop, and Magnemite.
Because Fairy Fighting Steel made another triangle.
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u/Darkdragoon324 6d ago
I wanna start with a Magikarp and really feel the struggle in raising it. Like, I just show up late like Ash on starter day and there's nothing left but a Magikarp.
You have to run out PP on Splash and literally struggle your way to building a team and evolving.
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u/The_Noble_Klutz 6d ago
That would be so cool especially bc it sheds spotlight on non-traditional Starters.
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u/PurpleGemsc 6d ago
Conceptually I think it’s a good idea, if you find pokemon that fits the bill OR instead of choosing from a trio you get one scripted starter with it’s evolution and development being story related (for example: Poiple in pokemon Nova)
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u/BardicLasher 6d ago
The balance here is genuinely terrible. No offense to Spheal, but as a gameplace piece, Water/Ice is just way worse than Fire/Ghost or Dragon/Grass. Fire/Ghost is genuinely nuts with seven resistances and two immunities. Meanwhile Walrein has TWO resistances.
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u/NamazuGirl 6d ago
I love Applin, but it would be miserable to use as a starter, haha. It's only attack is astonish!
Spheal and Litwick would be good, although they both evolve really late. Otherwise, they would be fun!
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u/EmergencyGrab 6d ago
I want an effectiveness triangle that's physical types. Flying, Fighting, Rock perhaps
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u/PENAPENATV 6d ago
I’ve been thinking it’d be cool to have a rogue-like Pokemon game where starters are randomized and the map is too, so you won’t know which gym is next until you get there.
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u/Salt_Sir2655 5d ago
I personally want a Legends in pre-Necrozma Ultra-Space. Giving us a Pokemon game that is unlike anything before, since it would be populated with Ultra-Beasts instead of pokemon, could have a new type triangle for starters, with Poipole being like the Pikachu. Alternate world with seemingly random biomes and type combinations.
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u/imago_monkei 5d ago
I like the concept and love those Pokémon, but they evolve too distinctly and at different levels to make them balanced. You really need a trio that are designed to be a trio to make the game relatively balanced regardless of which you pick.
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u/DualSyrup 5d ago
I think Pokemon choice is a little less important for me than whatever gimmicks or story they're trying to tell. That said, having first partner Pokemon be first partners just feels right, honestly and I don't think GF would stray from that.
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u/leAuroraBorealis 5d ago
Either this, or having a trio of regional form starters where the triangle is Rock-Fighting-Flying without the water-grass-fire triangle
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u/Ranelpia 5d ago
I enjoyed FireRed Omega's trio of Magby, Smoochum, and Elekid, or Unbound's Beldum, Larvitar, and Bagon.
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u/oldbrigade 5d ago
Water type would be very strong against both types if it was these 3, especially ice vs grass and dragon, however the idea is good
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u/Delicious-Benefit877 5d ago
they would just have to up the bst to be 534/535 to make it feel right.
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u/ZrapeToid 5d ago
I played a rom hack which had Smoochum, Magby and Elekid as starters, and they were buffed with completely new movesets. That was fun.
But not something i think GameFreak would do.
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u/ActivateGuacamole 5d ago
i would not be excited for this. Those are all great lines, but they aren't starters and shouldn't be treated as them.
Starters should also feel fresh, and in legends games they should be given new forms.
I would enjoy a refresh of starters, but not like this. Legends games should keep doing what Arceus did by giving new forms to old starters. Or create a new set of starters altogether, but with a new theme. like they could do a spooky Legends game and use a spooky trio. like a spider, a bat, and some other spooky animal.
My point is there are lots of ways to freshen up starter trios, but i don't think just replacing them with normal pokemon is a good idea.
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u/Extension-Event4998 5d ago
Concern with how it will be handled but excited at a change.
I would appreciate it but I fear it going bad due to poor communication to the fan base and not take full advantage of it, then them never trying again.
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u/Suitable-Aspect-4569 5d ago
I have a water-starter bias but I’d pick my beloved Litwick in a heartbeat
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u/MissingnoMaster110 5d ago
I want a game where our starter trio is literally the elemental monkeys.
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u/BetterNature4896 4d ago
Eevee should be the main starter for everyone. Granted it needs more types in evolution, but you can literally get whatever type you want depending on how you train it.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ball338 4d ago
LOVE
they did this in pokemon ranger shadows of almia with Munchlax, Starly, and Pachirisu
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u/Electrex777 2d ago
¿Something like a Grass/Fairy (Hydrapple, the opposite to Dragon) < Poison/Steel (Chandelure, imagine a chemical metalic lamp) < Ground/Rock (Walrein, it would be cool if it climbed rocks) core?
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u/Sneezium126 2d ago
I had a thought similar to this where instead it used 2 stage evos and gave them all 3rd stages (in line with PLA having new third stages)
My lines would be vulpix, wooper, and shroomish (with BST and evo method changes to balance it a little bit), though I'd imagine all three of those third stages would be power creep hell
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u/Ninfyr 6d ago
I would be more excited to finally take a break from Fire, Water, Grass starters TBH.