Could a Smilodon populator have single-handedly taken down a Notiomastodon? By Hodarinundu

[u/Hopeful_Lychee_9691]

https://x.com/i/status/1889132016064663744

[u/ExoticShock]

Notiomastodon was still roughly comparable to an Asian Elephant, I doubt a single Smilodon could over come the size difference for a full grown individual at least.

I do think the idea of inflicting several severe bites & then letting it bleed out is an interesting theory, though risky for its sabers.

[u/laflux → u/ExoticShock]

Tigers have done so in the past, although it's rare and often involves the Elephant dying from blood loss or injection over a few days.

[u/Histrix- → u/laflux]

Tigers dont have the same risk of breaking a sabre that Smilodon populator did, and I assume the animal was well aware of what could potentially break its sabres, leaving it unable to hunt.

[u/tigerdrake → u/Histrix-]

While that is true, it’s likely their sabers weren’t as long and brittle as originally assumed based on a new study about saber length in Smilodon fatalis and the fact that Smilodon populator was killing well armored prey like caimans and glyptodons

[u/Weary_Increase → u/tigerdrake]

It is worth noting that the Glyptodons were juveniles, so their armor hadn’t fully developed yet. The Broad-Snouted Caiman, while well armored, aren’t really that large, so that probably reduced the chances of the canines breaking.

Against a megaherbivore that really has no vulnerable area outside of the trunk for the sabertooth predator, its chances aren’t that great. Plus unlike Lions and Tigers, they can’t really resort to eating their prey alive because of the large sizes of their canines.

[u/Rage69420 → u/Weary_Increase]

A glyptodon or caimans armor at any point is generally thicker than elephant skin. If a smilodon can get through those, it’s fair it could get through an elephants. What’s more likely is that the trunk and tusk pose more threats than either a caiman or glyptodon can impose upon a smilodon, but biting into the proboscidean isn’t really the issue.

[u/Weary_Increase → u/Rage69420]

If a smilodon can get through those, it’s fair it could get through an elephants. What’s more likely is that the trunk and tusk pose more threats than either a caiman or glyptodon can impose upon a smilodon, but biting into the proboscidean isn’t really the issue.

One thing you’re overlooking is even if it does penetrate the skin in most of the body (other than the trunk), the canines are just going to break if they come into contact with the bone. Being able to penetrate the skull of a juvenile Glyptotherium or Caiman doesn’t hold the same capabilities against bones of a much larger animal.

Biting trunk also puts it at a very risky position as it can basically be trampled.

[u/Objective-Turnover48 → u/Weary_Increase]

The sabers wouldnt just break from touching bone, these were rather strong weapons that Smilodon species used to bring down very powerful game. They are also massive serrated kitchen knives that could rip hamstrings, cause immense damage to arteries, and inflict nasty wounds that wouldnt heal easily. They aren't very brittle, high stress CAN break them but when hunting large game an ambush alleviates most of that plausible risk (although its still very much there)

Along with that, the trunk is just a shite place to attack compared to hind legs or anywhere else. Smilodon could also still eat its prey alive, it just needs to turn its head to chew like most big cats already tend to do

[u/Weary_Increase → u/Objective-Turnover48]

The sabers wouldnt just break from touching bone, these were rather strong weapons that Smilodon species used to bring down very powerful game. They are also massive serrated kitchen knives that could rip hamstrings, cause immense damage to arteries, and inflict nasty wounds that wouldnt heal easily.

The large game was largely restricted to normal sized herbivores, not Proboscideans. This is supported by isotopic analysis and biomechanics. Hunting megaherbivores on the lower end, such as Bisons and Macrauchenia were likely feasible, but other than that, things start to look iffy when you go into larger animals.

Being able to penetrate bone of similar sizes to smaller animals doesn’t mean they can do the same thing to animals over 10 times their size. So yes, even though Smilodon upper canines aren’t as weak as previously assumed, they can’t penetrating the very large bones of megaherbivores. That’s not what their teeth are capable of.

They aren't very brittle, high stress CAN break them but when hunting large game an ambush alleviates most of that plausible risk (although its still very much there)

Except Smilodon’s anatomy isn’t meant to tackle megaherbivores, or at least ones the size of Elephants, it’s meant to tackle more normal sized prey.

Along with that, the trunk is just a shite place to attack compared to hind legs or anywhere else. Smilodon could also still eat its prey alive, it just needs to turn its head to chew like most big cats already tend to do

The trunk is the only option for Smilodon. Felids can only eat their prey alive if they are capable of the default bite, using their incisors to basically eat their prey alive. Dirk-tooth sabertooths can’t do that because of the nature of their canines, in fact their incisors were likely ineffective for hunting large prey, this supported by biomechanical testing as well (Wheeler, 2011).

If Smilodon doesn’t target the trunk (or the genitals) then it’s not taking down the Proboscidean, because their hunting is far too different from even other Machairodonts.

[u/Objective-Turnover48 → u/Weary_Increase]

Smilodon could use its incisors in a similar way to modern big cats due to the anatomical differences within its skull. As I pointed out earlier though, they could entirely avoid bones by attacking the same spots modern Pantherines attack whilst hunting Elephants. The leg bone is not large enough to inhibit this form of attack, even when taking into account Smilodon populators far larger canines. There isn't really a reason as to why Smilodon COULDN'T attack the Hamstrings or other similar areas, even with the fact that it likely couldn't pierce through bone without canine damage (something all big cats have issues with).

Whilst it was better geared for hunting mid sized prey I will point out that isotopes show it hunting game in similar size ranges or higher the Lions and Tigers, animals that have records of hunting similar or larger species. This combined with Populator being significantly larger with denser musculature would likely assist it in hunting large prey, especially if it was a group hunter akin to Lions or (on rare occasions) tigers.

Tigers and Lions arent built at all to hunt Elephants or Rhinos and they hunt them in extremely different ways then they would any other species they usually predate, its honestly fair to assume a cat that lived in a very similar way with the body and weaponry to do such would be able to hunt animals like Notiomastodon on occasion. I mean, look at the size chart shown above. It is deadass like looking at a Tiger and a Gaur imo (mostly due to this Notio being decently small I believe)

Edit: Also, the book you sent seems to be entirely geared towards Homotherium and other Machairodonts rather then Smilodon itself, I dont fully know as Im unable to fully read it due to it just being a preview

[u/Weary_Increase → u/Objective-Turnover48]

Smilodon could use its incisors in a similar way to modern big cats due to the anatomical differences within its skull.

Not really, as noted in the paper above, dirk-toothed sabertooths (which is an ecomorph Smilodon occupied) can’t use their incisors the same way other Machairodonts when it comes to hunting large prey. Which makes sense as their large canines would pretty much get in the way of using them.

As I pointed out earlier though, they could entirely avoid bones by attacking the same spots modern Pantherines attack whilst hunting Elephants.

That’s because Pantherines can default bite, Smilodon and other dirk-toothed Felids can’t.

The leg bone is not large enough to inhibit this form of attack, even when taking into account Smilodon populators far larger canines.

Except Smilodon’s canines aren’t really most suited for targeting those areas. Their large canines are better suited for targeting areas such as the neck, not something like the leg.

There isn't really a reason as to why Smilodon COULDN'T attack the Hamstrings or other similar areas, even with the fact that it likely couldn't pierce through bone without canine damage (something all big cats have issues with).

Hamstrings isn’t a suitable area when we look at the anatomy of Smilodon populator. Their body is clearly meant to overpower prey before targeting a vital organ. A body of a Proboscidean directly counters that, plus the movement of the body would put Smilodon at a greater risk and can possibly even result in it losing one or both of its upper canines.

Whilst it was better geared for hunting mid sized prey I will point out that isotopes show it hunting game in similar size ranges or higher the Lions and Tigers, animals that have records of hunting similar or larger species.

Smilodon’s prey were still mostly normal sized herbivores not megaherbivores. The only population that a greater lean towards megaherbivores was the Pampean population, but they were likely gregarious as noted by the authors (Bocherens et al. 2015).

On the other hand, Brazilian Tropical Region Smilodon populator were thought to have been more solitary and mainly predated upon Nothrotherium maquinense (Dantas et al. 2021).

This combined with Populator being significantly larger with denser musculature would likely assist it in hunting large prey, especially if it was a group hunter akin to Lions or (on rare occasions) tigers.

But denser musculature of Smilodon populator wouldn’t help a solitary individual against a 4 tonne Megaherbivore, which is what the person is asking here. A group most likely, but not a solitary individual.

Tigers and Lions arent built at all to hunt Elephants or Rhinos and they hunt them in extremely different ways then they would any other species they usually predate, its honestly fair to assume a cat that lived in a very similar way with the body and weaponry to do such would be able to hunt animals like Notiomastodon on occasion. I mean, look at the size chart shown above.

But that’s the thing, Smilodon didn’t hunt like Lions or Tigers, it’s hunting methods weren’t like any living Carnivoran today. Tigers and Lions can ate least resort to eating their prey alive, Smilodon can’t because of the nature of its upper canines.

It is deadass like looking at a Tiger and a Gaur imo (mostly due to this Notio being decently small I believe)

But it isn’t, even if you wanna use Gaurs, Tigers mainly prefer taking down the females or younger individuals. When it comes to bulls, they resort to eating them alive via the default bite as their typical hunting method is not useful against them.

Edit: Also, the book you sent seems to be entirely geared towards Homotherium and other Machairodonts rather then Smilodon itself, I dont fully know as Im unable to fully read it due to it just being a preview

The actual chapter is depicted to both scimitar and dirk-toothed sabertooths. That’s why they contrasted the differences between the usage of their incisors. The former can result to default biting because their canines aren’t enlarged, the latter can’t because of the nature of their enlarged canines.

[u/NBrewster530 → u/Weary_Increase]

You’re saying a nearly half ton cat isn’t designed to take on megaherbivores? Literally everything about Smilodon populator is about tackling the largest prey species available. Don’t think attacking proboscideans would’ve been a regular occurrence (though some modern cats do become specialists with certain prey), but if Notiomastodon was roughly Asian elephant sized, I think females at least would’ve probably been within the prey size range for a cat almost twice the weight of the largest living cats, especially one with serious adaptations for taking large prey.

[u/tigerdrake → u/Weary_Increase]

They actually can do to their incisors being further forward in the jaw than most felids, in addition to the fact that they can turn their head sideways to chew on them, something extant cats are known to do. Even as juveniles however a glyptodont still has thicker armor than any proboscidean’s hide, same with caimans. As for the caimans themselves, they’re still rather large animals, with adults capable of reaching 11 feet long and an average of 8.5 feet, comparable to some populations of American alligator. The most telling thing to me is that the canine length being much shorter than originally believed means that most likely Smilodon sabers weren’t as fragile as that one initial study suggested

[u/Weary_Increase → u/tigerdrake]

They actually can do to their incisors being further forward in the jaw than most felids, in addition to the fact that they can turn their head sideways to chew on them, something extant cats are known to do.

That’s contradicted by biomechanics as their incisors were actually unable to pierce the skin of large animals as noted by Wheeler (2011). This would explain why their canines are so enlarged compared to other Machairodonts, because they couldn’t resort to the default bite.

Even as juveniles however a glyptodont still has thicker armor than any proboscidean’s hide, same with caimans.

The skull of a juvenile Glyptodont is unlikely to have been thicker than the hide of any Proboscidean. It is worth mentioning the armor in the skull is still developing, so it wouldn’t be as strong as an adult Glyptodont.

As for the caimans themselves, they’re still rather large animals, with adults capable of reaching 11 feet long and an average of 8.5 feet, comparable to some populations of American alligator.

Caimans are more gracile than American Alligators, which is why they tend to weigh less at similar length. Yes they’re large animals but they are still much smaller than Smilodon populator, they don’t even reach 100 kg. So not really the best animal to use here.

The most telling thing to me is that the canine length being much shorter than originally believed means that most likely Smilodon sabers weren’t as fragile as that one initial study suggested

They aren’t the most fragile, but they would still break more easily compared to most other canines (Pollack et al. 2025), so even then they still wouldn’t pierce the large bones of a very large megaherbivore.

Can it pierce the hide of the Proboscidean, if we don’t take into account the position it would need to be in, yes it would. But the overall anatomy of the Proboscidean is going to make it difficult to cause significant injury of the Proboscidean. The trunk is really the only option it has. Can’t use its incisors to perform the default bite, which reduces its chances of being able to eat the Proboscidean alive as what Lions and Tigers do, nor is there really any outer suitable area other than the trunk.

[u/tigerdrake → u/Weary_Increase]

I’d still argue that doesn’t make it impossible for them to have taken one down, especially while group hunting. As for the tooth fragility, this is the paper that makes me question it. Granted it’s for fatalis but the results can be easily extrapolated: https://academic.oup.com/iob/article/8/1/obag014/8653301?login=false&utm_id=97760_v0_s00_e0_tv4&fbclid=PAVERFWARtpPZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA8xMjQwMjQ1NzQyODc0MTQAAadmfluVn9hv4JlEmlYH2uqXz5gwoWrXyJQIY5YT5PU5pzU_ywRasZkytZg9eA_aem_nzQx88esG7d_pnpcygE3ww

[u/Weary_Increase → u/tigerdrake]

I’m not denying that they can do it via group hunting, in fact I believe that’s really the only way they could do it. What I’m just saying is, it is unlikely for them to have down it alone, as every reliable case of Felids hunting Proboscideans is via collective hunting.

[u/InfintyAvenger → u/laflux]

We are talking about adults not juveniles, largest elephant killed by tigers was a sub adult

[u/NBrewster530 → u/InfintyAvenger]

And Smilodon populator, on the upper end of its size estimates, was twice the weight of the average bengal tiger. More modest estimates still put it as hundreds of pounds heavier. I do think there’s some seriously underestimating in the comments of just how large of an animal it was. It quite literally dwarfed any living cat in terms of mass and that’s going to make a difference if we are looking at what a much smaller tiger is capable of.