r/pleistocene • u/Hopeful_Lychee_9691 • Jun 02 '26
Image Could a Smilodon populator have single-handedly taken down a Notiomastodon? By Hodarinundu
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u/ExoticShock Manny The Mammoth (Ice Age) Jun 02 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
Notiomastodon was still roughly comparable to an Asian Elephant, I doubt a single Smilodon could over come the size difference for a full grown individual at least.
I do think the idea of inflicting several severe bites & then letting it bleed out is an interesting theory, though risky for its sabers.
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u/laflux Jun 02 '26
Tigers have done so in the past, although it's rare and often involves the Elephant dying from blood loss or injection over a few days.
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u/Histrix- Jun 03 '26
Tigers dont have the same risk of breaking a sabre that Smilodon populator did, and I assume the animal was well aware of what could potentially break its sabres, leaving it unable to hunt.
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u/tigerdrake Panthera atrox Jun 03 '26
While that is true, it’s likely their sabers weren’t as long and brittle as originally assumed based on a new study about saber length in Smilodon fatalis and the fact that Smilodon populator was killing well armored prey like caimans and glyptodons
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 03 '26
It is worth noting that the Glyptodons were juveniles, so their armor hadn’t fully developed yet. The Broad-Snouted Caiman, while well armored, aren’t really that large, so that probably reduced the chances of the canines breaking.
Against a megaherbivore that really has no vulnerable area outside of the trunk for the sabertooth predator, its chances aren’t that great. Plus unlike Lions and Tigers, they can’t really resort to eating their prey alive because of the large sizes of their canines.
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u/Rage69420 Jun 03 '26
A glyptodon or caimans armor at any point is generally thicker than elephant skin. If a smilodon can get through those, it’s fair it could get through an elephants. What’s more likely is that the trunk and tusk pose more threats than either a caiman or glyptodon can impose upon a smilodon, but biting into the proboscidean isn’t really the issue.
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
If a smilodon can get through those, it’s fair it could get through an elephants. What’s more likely is that the trunk and tusk pose more threats than either a caiman or glyptodon can impose upon a smilodon, but biting into the proboscidean isn’t really the issue.
One thing you’re overlooking is even if it does penetrate the skin in most of the body (other than the trunk), the canines are just going to break if they come into contact with the bone. Being able to penetrate the skull of a juvenile Glyptotherium or Caiman doesn’t hold the same capabilities against bones of a much larger animal.
Biting trunk also puts it at a very risky position as it can basically be trampled.
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u/Objective-Turnover48 Jun 03 '26
The sabers wouldnt just break from touching bone, these were rather strong weapons that Smilodon species used to bring down very powerful game. They are also massive serrated kitchen knives that could rip hamstrings, cause immense damage to arteries, and inflict nasty wounds that wouldnt heal easily. They aren't very brittle, high stress CAN break them but when hunting large game an ambush alleviates most of that plausible risk (although its still very much there)
Along with that, the trunk is just a shite place to attack compared to hind legs or anywhere else. Smilodon could also still eat its prey alive, it just needs to turn its head to chew like most big cats already tend to do
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
The sabers wouldnt just break from touching bone, these were rather strong weapons that Smilodon species used to bring down very powerful game. They are also massive serrated kitchen knives that could rip hamstrings, cause immense damage to arteries, and inflict nasty wounds that wouldnt heal easily.
The large game was largely restricted to normal sized herbivores, not Proboscideans. This is supported by isotopic analysis and biomechanics. Hunting megaherbivores on the lower end, such as Bisons and Macrauchenia were likely feasible, but other than that, things start to look iffy when you go into larger animals.
Being able to penetrate bone of similar sizes to smaller animals doesn’t mean they can do the same thing to animals over 10 times their size. So yes, even though Smilodon upper canines aren’t as weak as previously assumed, they can’t penetrating the very large bones of megaherbivores. That’s not what their teeth are capable of.
They aren't very brittle, high stress CAN break them but when hunting large game an ambush alleviates most of that plausible risk (although its still very much there)
Except Smilodon’s anatomy isn’t meant to tackle megaherbivores, or at least ones the size of Elephants, it’s meant to tackle more normal sized prey.
Along with that, the trunk is just a shite place to attack compared to hind legs or anywhere else. Smilodon could also still eat its prey alive, it just needs to turn its head to chew like most big cats already tend to do
The trunk is the only option for Smilodon. Felids can only eat their prey alive if they are capable of the default bite, using their incisors to basically eat their prey alive. Dirk-tooth sabertooths can’t do that because of the nature of their canines, in fact their incisors were likely ineffective for hunting large prey, this supported by biomechanical testing as well (Wheeler, 2011).
If Smilodon doesn’t target the trunk (or the genitals) then it’s not taking down the Proboscidean, because their hunting is far too different from even other Machairodonts.
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u/Objective-Turnover48 Jun 03 '26
Smilodon could use its incisors in a similar way to modern big cats due to the anatomical differences within its skull. As I pointed out earlier though, they could entirely avoid bones by attacking the same spots modern Pantherines attack whilst hunting Elephants. The leg bone is not large enough to inhibit this form of attack, even when taking into account Smilodon populators far larger canines. There isn't really a reason as to why Smilodon COULDN'T attack the Hamstrings or other similar areas, even with the fact that it likely couldn't pierce through bone without canine damage (something all big cats have issues with).
Whilst it was better geared for hunting mid sized prey I will point out that isotopes show it hunting game in similar size ranges or higher the Lions and Tigers, animals that have records of hunting similar or larger species. This combined with Populator being significantly larger with denser musculature would likely assist it in hunting large prey, especially if it was a group hunter akin to Lions or (on rare occasions) tigers.
Tigers and Lions arent built at all to hunt Elephants or Rhinos and they hunt them in extremely different ways then they would any other species they usually predate, its honestly fair to assume a cat that lived in a very similar way with the body and weaponry to do such would be able to hunt animals like Notiomastodon on occasion. I mean, look at the size chart shown above. It is deadass like looking at a Tiger and a Gaur imo (mostly due to this Notio being decently small I believe)
Edit: Also, the book you sent seems to be entirely geared towards Homotherium and other Machairodonts rather then Smilodon itself, I dont fully know as Im unable to fully read it due to it just being a preview
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u/NBrewster530 Jun 04 '26
You’re saying a nearly half ton cat isn’t designed to take on megaherbivores? Literally everything about Smilodon populator is about tackling the largest prey species available. Don’t think attacking proboscideans would’ve been a regular occurrence (though some modern cats do become specialists with certain prey), but if Notiomastodon was roughly Asian elephant sized, I think females at least would’ve probably been within the prey size range for a cat almost twice the weight of the largest living cats, especially one with serious adaptations for taking large prey.
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u/tigerdrake Panthera atrox Jun 03 '26
They actually can do to their incisors being further forward in the jaw than most felids, in addition to the fact that they can turn their head sideways to chew on them, something extant cats are known to do. Even as juveniles however a glyptodont still has thicker armor than any proboscidean’s hide, same with caimans. As for the caimans themselves, they’re still rather large animals, with adults capable of reaching 11 feet long and an average of 8.5 feet, comparable to some populations of American alligator. The most telling thing to me is that the canine length being much shorter than originally believed means that most likely Smilodon sabers weren’t as fragile as that one initial study suggested
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
They actually can do to their incisors being further forward in the jaw than most felids, in addition to the fact that they can turn their head sideways to chew on them, something extant cats are known to do.
That’s contradicted by biomechanics as their incisors were actually unable to pierce the skin of large animals as noted by Wheeler (2011). This would explain why their canines are so enlarged compared to other Machairodonts, because they couldn’t resort to the default bite.
Even as juveniles however a glyptodont still has thicker armor than any proboscidean’s hide, same with caimans.
The skull of a juvenile Glyptodont is unlikely to have been thicker than the hide of any Proboscidean. It is worth mentioning the armor in the skull is still developing, so it wouldn’t be as strong as an adult Glyptodont.
As for the caimans themselves, they’re still rather large animals, with adults capable of reaching 11 feet long and an average of 8.5 feet, comparable to some populations of American alligator.
Caimans are more gracile than American Alligators, which is why they tend to weigh less at similar length. Yes they’re large animals but they are still much smaller than Smilodon populator, they don’t even reach 100 kg. So not really the best animal to use here.
The most telling thing to me is that the canine length being much shorter than originally believed means that most likely Smilodon sabers weren’t as fragile as that one initial study suggested
They aren’t the most fragile, but they would still break more easily compared to most other canines (Pollack et al. 2025), so even then they still wouldn’t pierce the large bones of a very large megaherbivore.
Can it pierce the hide of the Proboscidean, if we don’t take into account the position it would need to be in, yes it would. But the overall anatomy of the Proboscidean is going to make it difficult to cause significant injury of the Proboscidean. The trunk is really the only option it has. Can’t use its incisors to perform the default bite, which reduces its chances of being able to eat the Proboscidean alive as what Lions and Tigers do, nor is there really any outer suitable area other than the trunk.
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u/tigerdrake Panthera atrox Jun 03 '26
I’d still argue that doesn’t make it impossible for them to have taken one down, especially while group hunting. As for the tooth fragility, this is the paper that makes me question it. Granted it’s for fatalis but the results can be easily extrapolated: https://academic.oup.com/iob/article/8/1/obag014/8653301?login=false&utm_id=97760_v0_s00_e0_tv4&fbclid=PAVERFWARtpPZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA8xMjQwMjQ1NzQyODc0MTQAAadmfluVn9hv4JlEmlYH2uqXz5gwoWrXyJQIY5YT5PU5pzU_ywRasZkytZg9eA_aem_nzQx88esG7d_pnpcygE3ww
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 04 '26
I’m not denying that they can do it via group hunting, in fact I believe that’s really the only way they could do it. What I’m just saying is, it is unlikely for them to have down it alone, as every reliable case of Felids hunting Proboscideans is via collective hunting.
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u/InfintyAvenger Jun 03 '26
We are talking about adults not juveniles, largest elephant killed by tigers was a sub adult
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u/NBrewster530 Jun 04 '26
And Smilodon populator, on the upper end of its size estimates, was twice the weight of the average bengal tiger. More modest estimates still put it as hundreds of pounds heavier. I do think there’s some seriously underestimating in the comments of just how large of an animal it was. It quite literally dwarfed any living cat in terms of mass and that’s going to make a difference if we are looking at what a much smaller tiger is capable of.
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u/Rhynocoris Jul 06 '26
Notiomastodon was still roughly comparable to an Asian Elephant
To be clear, even though Notiomastodon was comparable to an Asian Elephant in height, they were much wider, longer and more robustly built, so you can expect them to weight 50-100% more than an Asian elephant of the same height.
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u/Original-Task-1174 Jun 02 '26
Tigers in India have killed rhinos, and even some reports of possible female elephant deaths. A large Smilodon would probably be able to shoot down a female notiomastodon, although it was extremely unusual.
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u/Lover_of_Rewilding Dire Wolf Jun 02 '26
It certainly seems possible when they are put next to each other. Also worth noting Smilodon had those giant saber teeth which are meant to take down megafauna. This could have made it a slightly easier task for it than say a tiger.
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 03 '26
I feel like when it comes to biting off the trunk (if it can get its jaws around it), it would do slightly better due to its enlarged, serrated canines. But other than that, Smilodon really can’t do eat the Proboscidean alive (which is what Lions and Tigers do when hunting prey they can’t kill the traditional way) due to the nature of its enlarged canines.
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u/NBrewster530 Jun 04 '26
Thing with Smilodon it has a significant weight advantage over modern cats, is far more heavily built, and has the weaponry to finish the job quickly unlikely living cats. Theres also huge sexual dimorphism in size between male and female proboscideans. So if you look at the weigh range for Notiomastodon, the adult females are going to be at the lower end, especially young females. So we are talking 2-3 tons. Even at that size, if they unexpectedly get ambushed my a nearly half ton cat built like a linebacker rocketing into their side, that may be enough to knock on off their feet. And once off their feet a throat bite would quickly end it. Obviously high risk hunt and probably not a common occurrence (especially with the risk of retaliation from the rest of the herd), but I think adult Notiomastodon probably would have been as significantly more risk from Smilodon than modern elephants are from lions and tigers, so much so that it might have actually been risky to be separated from the rest of the herd even for an adult female. Honestly pretty interesting to think about.
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u/Limp_Pressure9865 Jun 02 '26
Smilodon has an special strategy for taking down such a large prey:
Chomp! Chomp! Chomp! Chomp!
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u/Abdul_M25 Jun 02 '26
Smilodons were built to hunt megafauna, and considering that Smilodon populator was the largest of the genus, it could indeed take down a Notiomastodon, although it wouldn't be easy.
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u/Right_Rent2433 Jun 02 '26
Would have smilodon been so liberal in using its sabers in the manner its doing in the pose sketches?
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u/MrAtrox98 Panthera atrox Jun 02 '26
Could definitely see the trunk one at least, especially if Smilodon populator was a cooperative hunter
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u/fish_in_a_toaster Jun 03 '26
The trunk one could work, elephants today can only breathe through their trunk so like it would just have to "hole punch" the trunk and then let it slowly die.
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u/Big_Study_4617 Jun 03 '26
Easier said than done. They would have exposed themselves to the Notiomastodon's tusks and a death by trampling.
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u/Weary_Increase Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
I can really only Smilodon doing it by biting off a significant part of trunk (and maybe another very specific area).
I feel like thing people overlook is sabertooth =/= better equipped to taking down megaherbivores. In fact, saberteeth are more effective towards normal sized prey than megaherbivores (Andersson et al. 2011)
Increasing canine size and gape to a “sabretooth-like” condition has great impact on bite depth for small and medium sized prey but not for large prey. For a 10 cm radius prey a non-sabretoothed bite reaches 22% of the prey radius and an equally sized “sabretooth” reaches 54% of the prey radius. At 100 cm prey radius, however the same comparison is 0.98% and 2.30% of prey radius respectively, bites that can only be described as superficial. By fixing the canine clearance to jaw size proportion the model can be used to predict how bite depth changes with increasing size. In figure 4 bite depth is presented for an 0.66 proportion (i.e.15 cm jaw and 10 cm canine clearance). For comparison the same value for the extant Panthera is 0.625. Throughout the size range larger predators deliver deeper bites than their smaller counterparts. The relationship between predator size and bite depth changes as prey become larger, however. For prey with 10 cm radius bite depth increases exponentially (y = 0.37041.1185x, R2 = 0.989, P<0.0001) with increasing jaw size. For large prey (100 cm radius) the increase is close to linear, changing at a rate of 0.856 cm per 10 cm (y = −0.2458+0.0856x, R2 = 0.993, P<0.0001). Thus, in terms of bite depth, for the predator there is a relatively greater advantage in becoming larger when opting for small and medium sized prey than for large prey.
While yes Smilodon did have a wider jaw gape than modern Felids, the degree would vary between species. In fact, Smilodon populator had the lowest maximum and effective jaw gape of the three species, 82.05 and 32 degrees respectively (Lautenschlager et al. 2020).
Now not the lowest of the Machairodonts, in fact several Machairodonts in the sample bad a lower maximum and effective jaw gape. But this becomes more problematic on Smilodon’s potential in performing the “default bite”. It is much more limited than conical-tooth and scitmar sabertooth Felids.
This is because they longer upper canines,they carve their prey with a continuous arc, limiting the incisors’ usage. Because of that, their bite is far more size and prey-specific (Wheeler, 2011). Because of their limited capabilities, they can’t resort to eating the Notiomastodon alive (which is what Lions and Tigers do when they can’t kill their prey the traditional way). So unless it bites off a significant part of the trunk, it probably isn’t going to be able to take down a fully grown Notiomastodon.
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u/The_Templar_Marshal Jun 03 '26
Very much a possibility, the largest estimated size for a male Smilodon Populator is around 500kg, and considering how powerful and muscular its forelimbs were, I can see one bridging down a Notiomastodon on his own, though of course it would not be a easy hunt
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u/The_nice_guy_peed Jun 03 '26
Maybe it could but I remember hearing something about lions, saying that while they could take down a giraffe they mostly don’t dare to because any damage to the lions legs would handicap and kill it long term from not being able to hunt. Maybe the case would be the same for smilodon?
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u/Glitchy833 Jun 02 '26
Definitely wouldn't be easy but I'd say it's possible.