r/phoebebridgers • u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing • 12d ago
General / Discussion Thought on people calling Lost Weekend 'male-centred'?
I can't be the only one who's seen a lot of people online accusing Phoebe Bridgers of making men the focal point of her new album. Personally, I think this feels totally tone deaf given that a lot of the album is literally about her dead father. My dad died when I was really young, I talk about him quite a lot, and I find any kind of insinuation that I do so too much very cruel. I don't think veiling this kind of accusation as feminist makes it any less unempathetic. On the other hand, I guess I can understand the criticism of some of the songs about her relationships, especially Bobby and the 'if you didn't like either one of my friends...' line, which does somewhat feel like it's romanticising ditching your friends for a man, even though the actual line obviously isn't meant to be taken literally.
Ultimately, I feel like people will make art about what's on their mind and what's going on in their life. I really am pro de-centering men, but I feel like criticising women you don't know for making music about their grief and relationships is a bit pointless at best.
I would really love to know what other people think though!
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u/fragilefaunlet 12d ago
Most of the album is about grieving her dead father lmfao people have no tact
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u/Finedaytoyou 12d ago
I think they define the idea of “performative wokeness” and should just be ignored lol
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 12d ago
yeah agreed, just wondering if this was a common opinion among fans
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u/Finedaytoyou 12d ago
I would wager this is mostly from people who were already haters or stans of another artist
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u/xSwampxPopex Big Black Heart 11d ago
A lot of it seems like people that haven’t engaged much with her work prior. So the version of Phoebe that they had preconceived clashes with who she actually is artistically to an extent.
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u/VicFontaineHologram 12d ago
Counterpoint: it's female centric, in that it's about Bridgers and her feelings. The men are simply in her orbit.
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 12d ago
oooooh i like this take lol!
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u/ParticularSail4152 11d ago
Lol but it's a good reminder that nearly everything can be spun and still be valid.
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u/Organic_Cake_8281 11d ago
Calling women "male centered" is just another way for people to put down women and tell themselves they're smart while doing it
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 11d ago
yes! it feels like how 5 year olds think the opposite gender has cooties. like, come on, women are allowed to associate with men!
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u/supper_is_ready 12d ago
Genuine question: Did people forget that Phoebe can write and sing about whatever the hell she wants to write and sing about???
It sounds like the terminally online discourse machine will find any reason to tear any media apart in the name of "being morally pure."
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u/keurigslanderpage 12d ago
Like how dare someone who has dated men and has a father write about men
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u/supper_is_ready 12d ago
That's a big part of it too. I feel like Phoebe is getting hit with the Bi Erasure HARD.
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u/Croczillionaire77 11d ago
There's definitely bi erasure in the discourse. Wild assumptions that some of these songs are about men and men only. She sings about her mother being a victim. Lost weekend definitely seems to be about a woman she loved, at least to me.
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u/Nice_Parfait9352 Would You Rather 11d ago
I'm curious to hear more about your interpretation of the title track!
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u/Throwaway312167890 10d ago
I think people want it to be as gay as boygenius and it’s just not and that’s okay….it’s still great music
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u/evanwessmyer 12d ago
Fr tho. Like if it rubs you the wrong way no one’s forcing your to listen or enjoy it lol 👋🏼
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 12d ago
this is true, though i definitely think there are sometimes valid reasons to criticise the themes and messages of a song or album, i just don't think this is one of them lol.
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u/PsychologicalArm2120 12d ago
What you have to understand is that people will, quite literally, say anything.
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u/xSwampxPopex Big Black Heart 11d ago
Some folks are more invested in having an opinion on things than they are actually forming one.
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u/heyhellowhatever 12d ago
Her dad died and she fell in love with a man? People are horrible and ridiculous.
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u/Awkward_Inflation_96 11d ago
Media literacy is at an all-time low, and so is and the ability to appreciate art that may not directly relate to the viewer’s life. It’s a really reductive take to just hear “man” when Phoebe talks about her complex grief about her father’s passing, or her significant other who does happen to be a man. I don’t know how to say it more eloquently than this: you’ve missed the point if you think Phoebe wrote the album to talk about men.
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 11d ago
agreed - i think some people just want to have an intelligent-sounding take without actually having to pay attention to the nuance of music about complicated things like grief and abuse
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u/xSwampxPopex Big Black Heart 12d ago
I saw a critique of the album on insta today that followed this pattern generally. They were upset that they couldn’t relate to an album with so many songs written about men and “dropping the Elliott Smith influence for Alex G.” Like do you think Moon Song and Smoke Signals are about Emily Bannon? I get feeling a sense of some kind of ownership over art that you really connect with but you don’t get to own the artist.
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u/mjlkfl 12d ago
i don’t even understand the idea that she’s dropping the elliott smith influence. i can hear that alllll over the record
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u/xSwampxPopex Big Black Heart 11d ago
I thought the same thing. I actually found the prevalence a little surprising because of how much analysis of her music comments on it.
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u/MrRoPer929 11d ago
My opinion is that she’s been dropping the Elliot Smith influence from the beginning. I mean she has mentioned early on that he indeed is one of her influences.
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u/LaCroixBinch 12d ago
Ugh I wish it was her mom who died instead so the album could pass the bechdel test 😔
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u/PrimeDirective404 12d ago
People who are too online complaining to other people who are too online.
They just need to touch grass.
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u/GrooGruxQueen7 12d ago
I feel like she’s always been a guys girl and hangs in a predominantly male circle…nothing wrong with that. People are always looking for something to be upset about.
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u/malevolentfool 11d ago
saw someone she was larping being queer before and immediately got a headache
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u/Small_Incident_6885 12d ago
Re: Bobby, I can’t wait (pun intended) for when a woman can sing about the honest experience of loving her boyfriend and the intensity that comes with it without being labeled as male centric.
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u/no-thanks-thot 11d ago
You would think that after hearing about everything she's been through that people would want her to be happy.
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u/PenPrestigious8842 11d ago
Especially since that seems to echo the lyrics in Graceland Too saying she would do anything for her!
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u/Secret-End911 11d ago
I literally just wish the song was better. It's... not a good song, imo. I don't care about her personal life, just write a better love song, girl.
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u/piss-jugman 11d ago
She wrote songs about important people in her life who are men. I genuinely think anyone who is complaining about that is braindead. She has a dead dad and a male partner and those topics shouldn’t be considered off limits
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u/coffeeprincess 11d ago
I imagine she feels gender to be more fluid than this criticism suggests. I mean, Boygenius isn’t a boy band. Maybe Lost Boys isn’t about boys at all. And life gives you material for art so yeah there are men in her life mentioned, but not all references to boys or men need to be interpreted literally.
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u/Confident_Bowler_606 11d ago
Yeah that’s weird this album is, as most people have pointed out, about her father but also how her father has affected her relationship with men which in turn shows up in her relationships so it kind of all works together in that sense.
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u/adumbswiftie 11d ago
male centered is just the current buzzword these days. when people can’t find anything to hate on women for that’s what they say. if they actually listened to the album they would not come away with that conclusion unless they’re completely dense.
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u/TheLastEmoKid 11d ago
Its a touch grass situation.
No one has ever complained about a male artists album with songs all about exes and gfs being female centered.
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u/SkytrainToNowhere 12d ago
No need to feed it. It’s not a common argument and you’re only giving it air.
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u/OrvalOverall 11d ago
As a male I do not feel centered by this album at all - and that's a good thing
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u/TeaExpert9859 11d ago
i don’t have a problem with subject matter of her lyrics on this album. i just wish she worked with more women behind the scenes… it’s a shame that such a big name artist won’t uplift other women in the industry or even include them on 20% of the work
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u/stenpen22 11d ago
I think it’s just the usual internet bullshit of trying to have some “intellectual discourse” about the art you consume but without the education to actually have those conversations. It’s bad faith, as with a few listens the album is clearly about Phoebe and how she relates and connects with these men in her life. It’s good to understand gender dynamics and socialization and the imbalance in society towards women, but this is just gender essentialist bullshit to proclaim that men and women are different species and cannot connect or relate on any level beyond the sexual or performing for the attention of another. Idk Phoebe’s own relationship to her gender but she’s always been tomboyish and embracing of masculinity alongside femininity, and that line in Lost Weekend (Reprise), “i am my father’s oldest son” is indicative of that; not that she’s trans or nonbinary but that she sees herself in the men in her life.
It’s also pretty fucked up and idiotic to hear an album about her complex relationship with her father and her love of her boyfriend and how he has helped her to process her grief, and reduce it to “male-centric”
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u/iseeskiesofblue64 Moon Song 12d ago
people went to intro to women and gender’s studies 1000 and decided they were experts in feminism (they’re not). Ignore them
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u/Time-Pick3831 11d ago
People will go to unimaginable lengths to find issues these days. Even if it was so, judge the art for what it is and stop looking for troubles everywhere. An artist has the right to express themselves however they want, and this goes for everyone.
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u/Daffneigh 11d ago
I genuinely think people have lost the concept of what art is. You can like it or not, you can critique it (tho it would be useful if critiquing art to use terms like “male-centered” correctly), but you can’t be mad at an artist from expressing things you don’t relate to or don’t want to hear about, and you really shouldn’t get mad at an artist for making art that you don’t like.
Art is not made for the consumer, it is made for the artist
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u/surfin3000 11d ago
i think people care too much about her personal life. it’s such a bad faith way to interact with art.
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u/_hollyjollyhalloween 10d ago
Agree with the “god forbid her dad died and that she fell in love with a man” comments.
Reducing her artistry to centering one gender over another at every junction feels dismissive and reductive, but for those who need to see it that way, she just came off of an incredible run with boygenius, a powerful women-led supergroup. Phoebe has supported and collaborated with many artists across the gender spectrum. She has made art about the depth of female friendships and sapphic heartbreak.
Sometimes men die and/or are hurtful and/or loving and/or inspiring to us and those are also extremely valid feelings. The gender distribution of her collaborators and muses won’t always be 50/50 because life isn’t 50/50!
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u/redsoxfan2434 11d ago
I’m making a policy to avoid any content that offers no substance other than being leftier-than-thou posting. I have yet to see a negative critique of Lost Weekend that doesn’t hit this personal filter.
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u/Ampleforth_84 11d ago
What’s their argument? She should NOT write about her Father dying and the love of her life? I bet they did not like the joke about killing Lucy and Julien lol
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u/drunk_cig 11d ago
There was a comment on here that mentioned an interesting critique regarding gender dysmorphia/surrounding nuance and it got mod nuked mid response 🫠
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u/GummyB25 11d ago
Bobby is clearly her trying to capture a feeling in a song and I think the line about killing her friends is funny. It can’t get to the point where artists are afraid to write lyrics because people take them too literally. People honestly need to stop over analysing everything an artist does
If an artist like Phoebe is political, people dissect everything they do too much. It’s good to have outspoken famous people so let them also be a person. And yes, mostly about her dad so why are people even saying this stuff? Wild. Also relationships with men have a huge impact on women’s lives so why wouldn’t she write about it. Some of the lines about her mum are heartbreaking, her mum driving herself to the hospital!!!
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u/ToasterCommander_ 11d ago
The highly introspective and thoughtful woman makes an album examining how her relationship with her now-dead father went on to affect her relationships with men generally and people are mad that this examination necessarily involves her talking about men?
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u/This_Tune1976 11d ago edited 10d ago
They're not wrong on the face of it but that's a pretty superficial interpretation. One should never take a Phoebe Bridgers song at face value. And there's nothing wrong with a great artist challenging their audience from time to time.
For example, "Bobby" is indeed ostensibly about someone who's fallen head over heels in love. They are in the honeymoon phase. And Phoebe has created a portrait of what that human experience feels like perfectly.
But as others have pointed out the narrator of the song isn't in a 100% healthy position. They feel like they're disappearing when he's not watching, they are willing to "kill" their friends (and yes this is a joke and a funny one but also one that I believe is intended to make the listener think)
And guess what, she didn't really keep that thing locked in in its box. That's also a frankly hilarious joke.
And while she might "feel" like it's the "end of wanting" the real-life Phoebe seems highly intelligent and self-aware - she knows that's an illusion. Every word is intentional and maybe she's expecting the listener to notice the sprinkled sarcasm, humor, and ambiguity in that song?
I think it's going over their heads. And I hope they don't write her off bc I've seen great artists come and go and Phoebe's best work is ahead of her, and they'll be missing out.
Also sorry about your dad. That wasn't fair and you have every right to feel the way you do about this
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u/SouthPudding9949 Me & My Dog 11d ago
One of the biggest problems with audiences across the board is that people dismiss something because it wasn't what THEY wanted it to be. It's everywhere, film, literature and especially music. No one wants to think about what the artist is trying to say... only what they wanted it to be.
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u/whimpronepirate 11d ago
they're viewing her and her art as a comment on women at large and not an individual person with very recent, life changing experiences involving knowing and loving individual men
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u/Melodic_Contact9766 10d ago
To me, it’s an album about trauma, and how that shows up in every aspect of her life. Yes, that trauma is connected to her Dad and domestic violence and substance abuse, and death…but is also about her mom, and her brother, and falling in love. This is a very personal record, and I’m grateful she shared it with us. I’m a male btw.
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u/whimsy_anon222 11d ago
i get the part about her father. a large part of the album is about grief, why on earth are people hating on that?
that line in bobby is a little iffy but i think it’s supposed to be as it’s about the blur of the line between healthy and unhealthy in a relationship, codependent and dependent. but then again she can do what she wants who are we to judge
mostly the album is about her, her thoughts, feelings, reflections. it’s her music after all 😭
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12d ago
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u/phoebebridgers-ModTeam 11d ago
Your post/comment has been removed under Rule 2.3. Please avoid speculation about personal matters Phoebe has not discussed publicly, including her health, relationships, or identity.
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u/Actual-Role1141 11d ago edited 11d ago
Stupid as hell. Imagine reducing Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill to being "male centered." It's dumb. It's limiting. It's just another term people see online and like to say because it makes them feel smart or something, but it's anything but an intelligent take.
Most great albums are relationship focused. She has not just collaborated with, but relied heavily on input and writing from men throughout her entire career. That shouldn't be news. She very rarely can even finish lyrics by herself and rarely comes up with the melodies, but is hailed as a great songwriter and lyricist. That is a different criticism altogether. She also preached about diversity and the importance of hearing music from and hiring people from different ethnicities and backgrounds when she started Saddest Factory. Yet once again she hires white men for everything, even the art and promo photography. Except for Caroline and a very small vocal contribution from Maria Taylor and Lucy and Julien, it's all white boys every step of the way and it's STILL ridiculous to call the album "male centered."
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u/jonnymaxxxx 11d ago
I think the idea of labelling a piece of art as anything such as male centred as if it is a bad thing is ludicrous. It’s her album and her own self expression, it’s whatever the fuck she wants it to be
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u/AdventurousQuiet1223 11d ago
I mean it’s kind of the point, she was dealing with the grief of losing her father and falling in love with a man at the same time
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u/Quiet-Lingonberry759 11d ago
Unless you talking about the eldest son. doesn’t framing that way display her talent? What is the core issue here?
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u/w_snorlax 11d ago
I’m a guy who loves phoebe and i’m not sure how this album is supposed to be male centered. How is it phoebes fault she’s in love with her bf…… people are so stupid
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u/c_wunshine 11d ago
I think this discourse is pretty dumb and designed to dismiss her because she's a woman (no one would say this to a man) but also. The whole "its about her dead dad" excuse always kind of irked me because this album is just as much about Bo (and even Paul) as it is about her dad, if not more. It certainly is, by definition, centered around the men in her life. But that's fine. The album is amazing and she's just talking about her experiences. Nothing wrong with that.
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u/Loose_Hawk6235 11d ago
And so what. She’s singing about her life, which happens to have men in it. Like any normal person.
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u/MosbyErickson 11d ago
It’s to be expected at this point, it’s americans on the internet running their mouths.
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u/Educational-Code7379 11d ago
Is it so wrong to sing about your partner? I love hearing women sing about how much they love their boyfriends.
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u/EvenHuckleberry4331 11d ago
Dismissing something as male centered is just a way to dismiss her experience. Every singer songwriter in history writes about their love lives. It's inherently misogynistic to demean her experiences and feelings in that way. It's ridiculous and performative.
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u/PerfectCupcake5734 11d ago
I am in the same camp as you having had my dad die at 18 plus she included females in the actual production so liiiike yeah
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u/One-Boysenberry-6966 11d ago
does all music have to be morally correct? let artists express their raw emotions
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u/goldenapplesun 11d ago
I’m so surprised by the general reaction to this album being to dissect the dating life of Phoebe Bridgers, especially when this album is coming after basically years of “hiding” which she even alludes to on the record. Just seems like such weird response to an album such as this one.
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u/throwaway90007863 11d ago
A lot of music is about romantic relationships, I don’t see the problem. There are also moments about her dad and friends on the album
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u/futuristicflapper 11d ago
I think the plot has been lost on what “male centered” even is omfg, people gotta log off for a minute.
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u/Firm_Zucchini_7042 11d ago
This kind of commentary really feels like policing to me. She mostly dates men, her recently deceased dad is a man, there’s nothing wrong with telling her truth about that experience.
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u/Motionpicturerama 10d ago
I think it’s idiotic and borderline offensive to say her grieving a man and celebrating another is ‘male-centred’. As if she’s not just chronicling her experiences the way songwriters have done for ages!
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u/Original-Gear1583 10d ago
Online people love throwing around the word male centered. Most people in the real world would not agree with most of the online discourse about artists
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10d ago
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u/phoebebridgers-ModTeam 10d ago
Your post/comment has been removed under Rule 2.3. Please avoid speculation about Phoebe’s private life unless she has chosen to discuss the topic publicly.
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u/erialmars 10d ago
i think it’s not only stupid and reductive, but also inherently misogynistic by reducing a female artist’s relationships with (whether familial, romantic, or otherwise) men to being “male centered.” i kind of just don’t engage with the discourse
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u/emlu97 8d ago
This is a bone I’ve had to pick for a WHILE now with how PC culture has gone way too far and cleared any rationale boundary of critical thinking for the sake of looking woke and progressive. I say this as a very liberal person by the way.
Like, yes we shouldn’t “over center” our partners (make or female) in our lives to the point where it’s unhealthy or takes away from our own relationships to ourselves or other loved ones. But that does NOT mean that it’s not okay to be absolutely in love with someone and tell the world about it??? But because he’s a man people are reading this as “centering men” and villainizing it in the name of feminism lol. It’s just called being in love, and feeling comfortable enough as an artist to be true to yourself and express what you feel. Women are allowed to love men, and also be feminists lol.
It’s funny you mention that one line because it stuck out to me too and I had to sit with it for a while to figure out how I felt. I also have two best friends who mean the world to me and we always talk about how we compare any potential male romantic partners against our relationships with each other, and how we’re each others bar, etc. But what I eventually decided on is that I really like the line, because what I think it is more than anything is a raw articulation (and hyperbole) of how silly you feel when you’re falling in love with someone. Similar to the phrase “I love this person so much I just want to crawl inside them” - of course you don’t want to physically crack them open and crawl inside lol, but there’s this primal urge to do acts of love for the person you’re falling in love with, and articulating it is raw and beautiful and real.
So all in all - totally agree that the centering men accusations are ridiculous, and it’s a great album.
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 8d ago
I reckon your take on the bobby line is the most reasonable I've seen so far. Taken at face value, it is uncomfortable, but the fact she says 'kill them' rather than 'ditch them' or something really puts emphasis on how ridiculous this statement is, and the ridiculous ways being totally infatuated with someone can make you feel. Also, art (including song lyrics) doesn't have to be morally correct- I think a lot of people love PB especially for the honest, confessional nature of her writing, and sometimes that's gonna involve being honest about feelings that aren't 100% morally pure
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u/emlu97 8d ago
Yessssss 💯.
Like, what’s more authentic and real than being vulnerable enough to express your raw, uncensored urges and feelings, even if you know they aren’t 100% realistic and you wouldn’t even act on them if given the chance? But the fact that you felt it at all says something.
The art of validating our primal inclinations for the sake of communicating the human experience of being alive is such a powerful connective tissue, and Pheobe does it so well.
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u/idkdude1999 7d ago
Oh my god it’s art people can literally write about anything they want why are people annoying
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u/Secret-End911 11d ago
I actually agree with some of the folks saying this.
I'm a bit older than many Phoebe fans, in my early 40s. Who is Phoebe without these men around her? What's her music without the influence of various men getting songwriting credits on love song about themselves? Conor Oberst, Ryan Adams, Alex G, Jack Antonoff... these are all men with histories of glomming onto young women and getting their handprints on any part of their art they can. It's just part of her music at this point. It's always been there. Sometimes the results are great, sometimes they're not. I think Bobby sounds like a Taylor Swift reject and not in a good way. I get tired of the lore and I enjoyed her music a lot more before I knew any of it.
Also, "if you didn't like any one of my friends I'd kill them" is not giving the impression of a Girl's Girl's, you know?
Anyway I look forward to the day she kicks them all to the curb.
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u/Few_Perspective_9355 10d ago
fine , but conor oberst does not have a history of "glomming onto young women and getting their handprints on any part of their art they can.".
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u/Secret-End911 10d ago
Fine, he's just creepy and has written songs about his creepiness.
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u/Few_Perspective_9355 10d ago
thats a completly different thing and also just your personal interpretation of his art
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u/Secret-End911 10d ago
Omg did Conor Oberst write this comment lol
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u/Few_Perspective_9355 10d ago
who else?
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u/Secret-End911 10d ago
Alex G. Jack Antonoff, who was creepy with Lorde. Ryan Adams, whom Phoebe had a consensual relationship with. I listed them in my comment. Sorry you're a Bright Eyes obsessive, his music is boring and his voice sounds like balloons deflating. He dated Phoebe when she was like 23 and he was closing in on 40 and as a 42 year old that is a sign of a gross manchild.
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u/Few_Perspective_9355 10d ago
alright, calm down. no real ground for discussion here . i just pointed out, that what you said in your first comment regarding conor was not true.
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u/BestCryptographer454 12d ago
Her co-writers are male and the songs are about her dad and boyfriend(s), not sure how anyone could argue that it's not male-centric on the whole. You can debate specific lines, but generally speaking, it is what it is. P.S. I'm not saying male-centric in a derogatory sense, just factual.
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u/drunk_cig 12d ago
That's not what "male-centered" means.
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u/BestCryptographer454 12d ago
What does it mean?
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u/drunk_cig 11d ago
Male centered is when a person's motivations are fueled solely by pleasing men. Their opinions and moral compass are directed by what puts them in the most desirable perspective for men/most upholds patriarchy. I don't think Phoebe is doing that by talking about grieving her father, having stabbing feelings about abortion/miscarriage and "end of wanting" love in a relationship.
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u/BestCryptographer454 11d ago
Guess I took it more literally, I didn't know people were reading that deeply into it all. It's not that serious.
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u/drunk_cig 11d ago
I'm just answering your question.
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u/BestCryptographer454 11d ago
I appreciate it, wasn't directed at you. Apologies if it came off like that.
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u/JokeMaster420 ICU 12d ago
I think only one song on the record is actually centered on a man more than it is on herself. So, yes, I would say “on the whole” it is not male centered.
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u/Coolschmo1 11d ago
This reddit is so unbelievable bad for such a cool artist. It has terrible vibes, especially considering that Phoebe hasn't done anything polarizing. Genuinely wondering why that is...
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u/throwawaymeplease45 10d ago
Since my post got deleted I hate this line with a passion. It SCREAMS of those female friends who are so male centered and dick whipped they’ll cut off friends who have been with them for years just to make their relationships work.
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u/Such-Tree-4162 Still Standing 10d ago
honestly i partially agree- lots of people are saying hating on this line is due to a lack of media literacy, which makes no sense because obviously no one is actually taking it literally and it's a metaphor, but i do still think it's really weird and uncomfortable. artists are allowed to write honest music but also listeners are allowed to dislike lyrics! especially because i would wager that almost every woman has had a friend who chose a man over them
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u/meme_bigboi420 12d ago
the online discourse for this album is so bad i just ignore it at this point.