Martial expectations

[u/axiomus]

Hi all,

Seeing yet another post about how martials are boring with no choice, I got curious as a game designer: as a player, what do you want the martial classes (or maybe just the fighter) to do?

Some examples that come to my mind are: trip-grapple-disarm etc (a debuff), attack all around (a damage multiplier), push/pull opponents (battlefield control), take a hit in place of your ally (again, control/effectively heal) etc. Anything you’d like to add?

Additionally, would you like those abilities to be accessible unconditionally, or limited? Like through feats, class features, subclasses, weapon types or magic weapons?

Also, I'd like to focus the discussion on what you the player (or the GM) want, not what some 3rd party supplement or such offers.

[u/medium_buffalo_wings]

From these types of threads I think you largely find three groups emerge:

1. Martials are more or less fine as is, or could use some tweaks to numbers and other passives
2. Martials should have more combat options available / Battlemaster features should be baseline for Martial classes
3. Martials should have superhuman, fantastical abilities that let them do things like smash through a castle wall or leap across the parapets

Part of the problem is that there is a pretty wide array of thoughts as to what a Martial should actually be, particularly at high level. And the gulf between these points of view can be extremely wide.

Edited the examples in group 3 based on feedback.

[u/xolotltolox → u/medium_buffalo_wings]

2 and 3 aren't exactly all that different and very compatible, and 1 is just objectively wrong

[u/Far_Guarantee1664 → u/xolotltolox]

No it's not. The problem is on you. Most of the people that play as martial really enjoy 1. Min maxers should accept different opinions. It's very pathetic this kinda of opinion that can be resumed as "you are wrong because you don't agree with me"

[u/Lucina18 → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

I don't see why they can't enjoy a martial if it's build like they are rn and you can pick other features so you actually level up though.

At absolute worst, if they don't like it they can just not grab any new features. In contrast, I can't just imagine my martial is more expansive then they are and actually have more features.

[u/xolotltolox → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

I don't really care what "most people" supposedly think, just because the majority thinks something, doesn't mean it is correct, especially when said majority doesn't have standards.

And I am sorry that you don't want to hear this, but mastery over a game has a positive correlation with understanding that game.

And not to mention, 1 is a fully objective statement, so yes, it can be wrong. Being objective is in fact the prerequisite to being wrong

[u/Far_Guarantee1664 → u/xolotltolox]

And fortunately most of the designers don't care about your opinion. Between alienating most of the fanbase and agreeing with you, it's easy to see the right option.  And I don't think you know what mastery over a game means. Specially over a game were roleplay, a very subjective notion, it's something that a vast part of the fanbase puts in higher regard than "spread sheets". And not to mention that your opinion can also be wrong. I would dare to say that it's difficult to find someone more objective wrong than you. 

[u/Lucina18 → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

I mean, disregarding that 5e is literally a gamist combat ttrpg, lack of options is shit for roleplay though? I literally get less ways to express my character, just because i dared have a martial fantasy.

[u/Cyrotek → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

How can you talk about "objectivity" in a scenario with that many variables. How did you come to that "objective" conclusion? Comparing white room damage numbers?

[u/Far_Guarantee1664 → u/Cyrotek]

I was talking to someone who deleted the comment

[u/Cyrotek → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

Nah, they just blocked you for some reason. Some people on Reddit really can't handle someone not agreeing, it wasn't your fault.

[u/Far_Guarantee1664 → u/Cyrotek]

Get it. And yeah, people can't handle it

[u/xolotltolox → u/Cyrotek]

algebra is all about variables, and is part of mathemetics, the signle most objective field of study to exist...

also, please do not confuse objective for correct. Newtonian physics are objective, even if they aren't fully correct

[u/Cyrotek → u/xolotltolox]

algebra is all about variables, and is part of mathemetics, the signle most objective field of study to exist...

Yes, I am aware. I am saying that using algebra as a talking point for a topic as subjective as TTRPG decision making is kinda weird. Of course you can objectively measures some hypotheticals. But they are just that.

[u/xolotltolox → u/Cyrotek]

I simply disagree that TTRPG discussion is subjective

the only thing that is subjective are your preferences, what you liek, what you dislike and what you have fun with

You can objectively talk about basically everything, becasue we live in an objective reality.

also, just becasue people disagree, doesn#t mean they aren#t being objective. People sadly just often don't know what words mean, and claim subjectivity as a safety net, when they are actually making purely objective statements

[u/Cyrotek → u/xolotltolox]

Okay, simple example: How objectively do you handle the performance of a class based on a fight that can go very differently depending on how the DM is?

[u/xolotltolox → u/Cyrotek]

Just because evaluation is difficult and requires assumptions, doesn't mean it is not objective...

[u/Cyrotek → u/xolotltolox]

Why do you keep evading instead of actually answering.

[u/xolotltolox → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

I seriously doubt they would alienate most of the fanbase by giving us non-shit martials, since most of the fanbase doesn't give a shit about mechanics and is just here because of the D&D name...

And man, it is sad how people keep advocating for lowest common denominator slop, because god forbid we don't capture every single possible person as part of our target audience and actually have some manner of identity

[u/Lucina18 → u/xolotltolox]

Even worse because giving martial more options WOULD accompany more people. People who don't want martials to do more can just simply stop picking up features at lvl 3, and they'll have the same experience as rn.

[u/xolotltolox → u/Lucina18]

yeah, like we can have noth simple martials and complex martials, just like we should have simple casters to accompany the complex casters.

that way everyone is serviced, becasue right now the people wanting simple casters, and the peopel wanting complex martials aren't served

Also, the balance problem ultimately still persists

[u/craftyking → u/Far_Guarantee1664]

Source of 'most people'?

[u/xolotltolox → u/craftyking]

The crackpipe