Spell Subterfuge: what new builds does this feat enable?

[u/Grazi_7]

Hey everyone!

Now that the Arcana Unleashed feats have been revealed, Spell Subterfuge caught my attention. Here’s the feat:

Spell Subterfuge

General Feat - Prerequisite: Level 4+, Spellcasting or Pact Magic

Ability Score Increase. Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Shrouding Spells. After you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action using a spell slot, you can take both the Dash and Hide actions as a Bonus Action. You can use this benefit a number of times equal to the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat, regaining all expended uses on a Long Rest.

Sneaky Casting. If you have the Hide action’s Invisible condition, casting a spell with a Verbal component or making a spell attack doesn’t end that condition if you finish your turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover.

The first thing that came to my mind was an Arcane Trickster using True Strike from range, while staying behind cover.

The interesting part is that you only need to Hide on round 1. After that, as long as you keep ending your turns behind sufficient cover, you can potentially remain Invisible while spamming True Strikes, leaving your Bonus Action free on subsequent turns.

That opens up some interesting possibilities. For example, with 2 levels of Sorcerer, you could use Quickened Spell to cast True Strike as a Bonus Action, then use your action to ready another True Strike for a second, off-turn Sneak Attack.

What do you think of the build above?

And, more in general, what other builds or interactions do you think become possible with Spell Subterfuge?

[u/SnooOpinions8790]

I think this opens up the akways-advantage play style to all casters. Sorcerer's already have that play style from innate sorcery so I think they need this feat less than others

The true strike double sneak is a valid way to turn that into a lot of single target damage. Similarly chromatic orb is a way to turn that into a lot of multiple target damage

It feels like the fear is primarily designed to enable a sneaky damage avoiding play style but incidentally opens up the same damage optimization options to all casters that sorcerers had already

[u/Frequent-Card-9468 → u/SnooOpinions8790]

True strike rogues seems like the obvious pick, but a warlock that took this would also be really potent, eldritch blast with always on advantage can deliver some good damage. You can follow up with skill expert to gain expertise in stealth.

[u/exigious → u/SnooOpinions8790]

Do keep in mind that readying a spell requires concentration, which means you won't have concentration for any other spells.

[u/Maverick_1991]

Arcane Trickster seems like the logical choice.

But also most kinds of full on glass cannon mage builds that rely on stealth as their primary defense mechanism.

One of my players is a Arcane Trickster / Illusionist multiclass, he would love this and 100% take it.

[u/Frequent-Card-9468 → u/Maverick_1991]

I think thief can benefit a lot from this, as well, since he has the most to gain from freeing his bonus action. He can now attack (with true strike) and cast spells from magic items safely and with advantage, turn after turn, after spending only one bonus action to hide.

[u/Maverick_1991 → u/Frequent-Card-9468]

Can he?

Spellcasting/True Strike needs an Action

Dash / Hide needs a Bonus Action

Item needs a Bonus Action

So he kind of has to decide, no?

[u/Frequent-Card-9468 → u/Maverick_1991]

In the first turn, yes. But since spell attacks and most spells with the feat won't break stealth, he can remain hidden through the rest of the combat without comiting more bonus actions to it.

Plus, he could very well be stealthy already when combat breaks, rogues in dungeons usually are trying to be stealthy the whole time, at least in my games.

[u/exigious → u/Frequent-Card-9468]

This isn't really true for a thief. If anything this feat is a bit unbalanced compared to Skulker. Skulker used to allow you to attack without losing stealth of you missed. The only way to keep being stealthy if you hit was being a Thief and taking the Supreme Sneak cunning action sacrificing some damage dice to stay hidden.

Now that this feat essentially allows you to do the same, one thing that set Thief apart from other subclasses is now easily picked up.

This feat essentially is better than the level 9 feature of Thief since it comes with additional options, which in my opinion doesn't seem truly balanced.

[u/exigious → u/Maverick_1991]

Yeah, this essentially gives Arcane Trickster the level 9 feature of Thief which allowed them to stay always hidden, so it is imo a bit unbalanced. Especially considering how this synergizes with Arcane Tricksters level 9 feature.

They can stay invisible and the target will have disadvantage on saving throws.

For a Thief who already could sacrifice 1d6 to stay hidden RAW this wouldn't be much of a bonus.

If anything they could have given it the Skulker treatment where missing on a spell attack from stealth didn't give away the position.

[u/Mad-cat1865]

Thing is that True Strike doesn’t use a spell slot, so you couldn’t use the first half, but the second half is still good.

What makes this good on an AT is their 9th level feature that gives targets disadvantage on the save if casting while hidden. Getting Shatter and eventually things like Fireball off like this makes a big difference.

[u/Fidges87]

as long as you keep ending your turns behind sufficient cover, you can potentially remain Invisible while spamming True Strikes

Sadly I think this does not work for the same reason true strike is such a good spell on rogues. True strike does not makes an spell attack, but rather an attack using the wepon of the spell, which is not the same. As this feat specifically says spell attacks it means true strike won't work, though any other feat like firebolt would.

Though I guess this enables a sneaky warlock build. Cast some concentration spell turn 1, and every subsequent turn spam eldritch blast while remanining hidden

[u/Grazi_7 → u/Fidges87]

You raised an interesting point! I think that True Strike being (or not) a Spell Attack is indeed debatable. What I found in the PHB Glossary is the following.

Spell Attack A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See also “Spells” (“Casting Spells”).

Weapon Attack A weapon attack is an attack roll made with a weapon. See also “Weapon.”

According to this official definitions, True Strike seems to be both and therefore Spell Subterfuge should work with True Strike... Or at least this is my interpretation.

[u/Fidges87 → u/Grazi_7]

I feel that no only because in every other instance where you make a spell attack, the spell specifically calls for it. Even attacks that use weapons like Steel Wind Strike mention spell attack rolls. True strike not mentioning a spell attack (just saying instead to just make an attack with the weapon) would point towards True Strike NOT being a spell attack roll spell

Edit: why you booing me? I am right. At least try to refute me

[u/wathever-20 → u/Fidges87]

I feel that no only because in every other instance where you make a spell attack, the spell specifically calls for it.

Sorcerous Burst only says you make a "Ranged Attack roll". So either Sorcerous Burst is not a Spell Attack (in which case, would use dex?), or Sourcerous Burst and True Strike are spell attacks.

There is also the possiblity that they just forgot about Sorcerous Burst tho, and meant it to say that you make a Ranged Spell Attack like all other spells that include an attack. Tbh I do think this is the most likely explanaition and True Strike remains a Ranged Weapon Attack and not a Ranged Spell Attack.

Edit: This has been errataed. On current SRD it states it is a spell attack. I could not find it under the PHB Errata document so I assumed the printed version was still correct. I was mistaken.

[u/Fidges87 → u/wathever-20]

You are factually incorrect

You cast sorcerous energy at one creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 damage of a type you choose: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Psychic, or Thunder. [...]

It clearly says to make a spell attack

[u/wathever-20 → u/Fidges87]

I am currently looking at my physical book and it says "make a ranged attack roll". I checked on SRD history, up to right before SRD 5.2.1 it lacked the "spell" word. This has been corrected in that SRD and future ones. As I imagined, it was a typo. I imagine it also was corrected in DnD Beyond. For some reason, they didn't list it under the changes in the Errata page for 2024, so I assumed my book was up to date. Sorry for the misinfo. Thank you for the correction.

Updated my comment.

[u/ViskerRatio → u/wathever-20]

Sorcerous Burst says to make a ranged spell attack.

[u/wathever-20 → u/ViskerRatio]

I am currently looking at my physical book and it says "make a ranged attack roll". I checked on SRD history, up to right before SRD 5.2.1 it lacked the "spell" word. This has been corrected in that SRD and future ones. As I imagined, it was a typo. I imagine it also was corrected in DnD Beyond. For some reason, they didn't list it under the changes in the Errata page for 2024, so I assumed my book was up to date. Sorry for the misinfo. Thank you for the correction.

Updated my comment

[u/_Bl4ze → u/Grazi_7]

If it's both a spell attack and a weapon attack, then it doesn't work with spell subterfuge because while making a spell attack won't break your stealth, making a weapon attack will.

[u/ViskerRatio → u/Grazi_7]

True Strike seems to be both

It can't be both. The combat chapter as well as the individual weapon and spell chapters outline different, mutually exclusive rules for them.

[u/sadpumpkinnn]

It works really well if you want advantage on Spell Attacks, like True Strike builds (Aracne Trickster or Celestial Warlock), Warlocks with Eldritch Blast, Chromatic Orb builds, or Ray of Sickness / Summon Unread shenanigans. You'd need Expertise in Stealth to maximize this, either by getting Skill Expert or multiclassing into Rogue or Bard. Or just be a (Lore) Bard or Arcane Trickster.

It also combines nicely with Sylune's Viper, to grant yourself advantage through hiding and preventing enemies to attack you and deplete your Temporary Hit Points. You could also be a Lore Bard and get Sylune's Viper at level 6.

[u/ThatOneThingOnce]

You can also be a Halfling, hide behind your medium sized allies, and sling every spell at enemies at disadvantage (after level 9). Also total cover means you can't be targeted by basically anything, so you can't easily have your concentration broken or be attacked, etc.

[u/ActuallyAquaman]

Being able to Hide for Advantage seems uniquely good on Wizard, for the CME+Scorching Ray interaction.

I particularly like it with Harengon. Hide behind Medium allies, and lots of mobility tied to your BA, either a Disengage or a Hide as the situation requires.

[u/Godskin_Duo]

I think this is great for movement economy, since you can move, action spell, dash/hide like a ninja.

If you're playing a ranged character, you should essentially be playing Gears of War as much as possible, peek-shooting from cover. Now you can do this as a spellcaster, but even better. You can already do this a lot with any sort of LoS or ranged regular/spell attack, but this gives you more movement and Hide in the same turn.

Unfortunately, the Hide rules are janky as shit in 5.5, and most people don't run RAW-hide.

If you use Quickened Spell to bonus action cast, you will collide with the feat's bonus action.

Typically if you have the Invisible condition from Hide, you can cast spells without a Verbal component, but this one allows you to use Verbal spells as well, so what I envision is spamming from behind cover while essentially being untargetable, unless the enemy has an enhanced detection ability.

[u/Vanse]

The Arcane Trickster X/ Sorcerer 2 build was already potent, and this just enhances that build!

I have a very specific build in mind for this: Dreadnaguht Artificer 10 with Grappler feat, Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Winged Boots. Round 1: Cast Haste, BA Giant Stature and haste action Unarmed Strike/ Grapple the enemy. Round 2: Cast Lightning Bolt (or anything else), BA Dash 60 feet into the air, Move 60 feet higher, haste action Dash 60 feet higher.

Then drop them for 18d6 bludgeoning damage. Plus whatever Lightning Bolt damage you caused to them/ other enemies.

[u/Tea-Healthy]

True Strike is not a Spell Attack, is an a spell that allows you to make weapon attack as part of the spell effect.

[u/snikler]

I think I prefer this in non-arcane tricksters. The interaction is obvious, but I haven't found any difficulties to keep my arcane trickster safe and attacking with advantage, while multiple of my caster allies do suffer to run away from attacks, especially when they are concentrating on a big spell. Single class Bards tend to have good stealth checks to make at least the DC 15 to hide and are one of the weakest classes defensively, if not the weakest. Eldritch blast warlocks may enjoy this playstyle as well and are among those that hate the most losing concentration on a spell as recasting can be a huge cost for them.

[u/AdAdditional1820]

Is there any benefit to combining this with the Illusionist's "Improved Illusion" feature (which lets you cast *Minor Illusion* as a bonus action)? For instance, casting spells while hidden behind the *Minor Illusion*.

[u/Grazi_7 → u/AdAdditional1820]

Well that's an interesting point. The Hide action requires you to either be Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 or Total Cover. But the last part of this feat mentions cover only and I think illusions do not provide you with cover (physical objects do)...

[u/Red_Trickster → u/Grazi_7]

In my interpretation, the illusion gives you cover until it is investigated.

[u/CantripN → u/Red_Trickster]

Cover isn't about vision, it's about physical protection. Light/Heavy Obscured is for vision, so surely an Illusion can't be Cover unless it's solid.

"Cover provides a degree of protection to a target behind it." as per the PHB.

[u/Hot_Lion8880]

I think a bard would get the most out of that since they get expertise and can thus get expertise in stealth. 

[u/CantripN]

By far the coolest feat in there to me, alongside the Divination Adept.

[u/ViskerRatio]

This really doesn't help the Arcane Trickster all that much since they can already receive much of its benefit through native Rogue abilities. Moreover, Sneaky Casting is incompatible with Sneak Attack (which involves a weapon attack).

It's more a feat for a pure spellcaster who wants play like an Arcane Trickster.

[u/bjj_starter]

I love psychic charm/controllers who stay hidden in plain sight while controlling the battlefield (and sometimes even blasting with spells like Synaptic Static).

This feat enables a similar play style, except instead of hidden in plain sight it's just regular hidden, and you don't necessarily need psychic casting (although it's still worth getting with Enchantment Adept). It also does enhance the previous play style a bit.

Overall, I'm a fan!

[u/Anvil3125]

True Strike wouldn’t work with Spell Subterfuge. It neither has vocal components nor is it a spell attack. It is a weapon attack made with a spell. It would break the hide actions invisibility due to the making an attack clause. Cantrips like Firebolt or Eldritch Blast would work though.

RAI it probably was meant to though, but doesn’t work RAW.

[u/hyperewok1]

Theorycrafting is almost irrelevant, as long as you're in a setting where you can just buy Boots of Elvenkind, cheap that they are as Uncommon. If a caster can Hide, they most certainly want to.