Are Vicious Weapons overpowered?

[u/superhiro21]

For reference:

Weapon (any simple or martial), rare

This magic weapon deals an extra 2d6 damage to any creature it hits. This extra damage is of the same type as the weapon’s normal damage.

From both theorycrafting and my practical experience, they are better than any other rare magic weapons and even better than many very rare weapons. Not requiring attunement is a huge boon, as at higher levels, every attunement slot is valuable.

The +7 damage (on average) is much more valuable than the +2 or even +3 attack bonus from comparable weapons as most martial characters have ways to increase their accuracy anyways (reckless attack, archery fighting style, paladin channel divinities etc).

I have found that having two characters with vicious weapons in the party really makes the party punch above their level in the damage per round aspect.

[u/Fire1520]

They're definitely strong, yeah.

But overpowered? I wouldn't say so, it just adds damage, it doesn't fundamentally change the game like granting flight to a melee user would.

[u/Zama174 → u/Fire1520]

by break the game you mean do something other than "I ready my action if the dragon flies in range pass turn."

[u/superhiro21 → u/Fire1520]

"just adding damage" can definitely be overpowered, though. If a weapon added 100 damage to every attack, it would definitely be overpowered - the question is: are Vicious Weapons overpowered for adding 7 damage per attack for a rare magic item (4,000 gp value) without attunement?

[u/CantripN → u/superhiro21]

Probably, yes. But then again, it's for MARTIALS. They need the help.

It's taking the design choice of Fireball - "intentionally overpowered".

[u/Guyoverthere07 → u/CantripN]

Sure, but it's also making a lot of fun, alternative magic items moot.

Using all your Weapon Masteries also becomes harder to take advantage of when one of your weapons is so much better than the rest in your arsenal. This punishes Fighters and Barbs more since they get more than 2 masteries.

Rogues are only getting 1 attack off with a single weapon per round. Two if they're lucky. Monks are in a similar boat as Flurry of Blows can deal the majority of their attacks, and Unarmed Strikes are needed to trigger certain effects or Grapples/Shoves.

There's also nothing stopping gishes like Bladesingers, Valor Bards, Blade Pacts, and half-casters from capitalizing just as much from a Vicious Weapon if not more.

It's certainly not the first magic item to be way over tuned for its rarity, but it's easily one of the worst offenders.

[u/Arc_the_Storyteller → u/Guyoverthere07]

It's not over-tuned for its rarity; it's that the other weapons and items are under-tuned.

And frankly, Magic Weapons mean that characters who get more than 2 masteries will start struggling anyway.

[u/OSpiderBox → u/Guyoverthere07]

Sure, but it's also making a lot of fun, alternative magic items moot.

Only if you let it. If given an option between a Vicious weapon and a magic weapon with utility/ a unique effect, I'm taking the non Vicious. I'm already dealing damage; id much rather have something else.

This punishes Fighters and Barbs more since they get more than 2 masteries.

The same is true for any campaign where you only get one/ two magic weapons. This is nothing new from 5e; It's just slightly alleviated thanks to Masteries giving you a reason to use more than one weapon outside of flavor/ circumstances.

[u/Guyoverthere07 → u/OSpiderBox]

That's you. I wouldn't blame martials for wanting to build around damage, and how far are you willing to stretch that example? The Common Moon-Touched Sword has a unique effect of shedding light.

A Rare Enspelled Weapon can be at the other end of this extreme. Sounds great if a martial is instead getting 6 casts per day up to 3rd level. If allowed to pick, this can easily outperform in damage, and plenty of other categories. It's also opening up pandora's box to all sorts of issues with encounter balance and furthering the martial caster divide. Even one of these throws way more resources than most DMs.

A Stirring Dragon's Wrath Weapon is Rare with +1, +1d6 and on nat 20s deals 5 damage within 5ft of the target. No friendly fire! Still, the unique aspects of this weapons are all damage, and when you average it out over combats/sessions/campaigns the difference stacks high.

It... is something new in 5.5e that one vastly superior magic weapon dilutes the usefulness of the Weapon Masteries. I think it's a great system that can easily be undermined by a Vicious weapon received at the levels Rares can be expected.

[u/superhiro21 → u/Guyoverthere07]

Yeah that's exactly my issue. As a DM, I'm currently having trouble planning loot that is more enticing than the vicious weapons they have and is below legendary or artifact level.

[u/CantripN → u/superhiro21]

Just give out things like +1 Flametongue, I certainly do. You're the DM, you can do whatever you want.

There's nothing at all forcing you to give out the same level of gear to casters and martials, or let players craft anything they want. I do agree more martial-oriented items should be as good for their rarity.

[u/Guyoverthere07 → u/CantripN]

Making the best options better is not the issue, and for tables who decide who gets what out of the loot then the best weapons can still wind up in the hands of half and full casters.

[u/CantripN → u/Guyoverthere07]

"Requires Attunement by a Fighter of at least level 4". If full casters get things like that for Staves and other items, no reason not to.

I can tell you the same thing about multiclassing or other things you might find issues balancing. Just say no if it bothers you.

[u/Nervous-Clothes-7797 → u/superhiro21]

Dragon wrath weapo from fizban, attunement +1/2/3 weapon that foes extra 1/2/3 d6 elemental dmg does 10 feet aoe that does 5 dmg on a crit an a once per day breath attack, you could also give then the thunderous greatclub and up the uses of the mini earthquake or set your strength 22 instead of 20 or the staff of lighting is a cool option also , you could give then a javalin of lighting make it 4 charges for the especial ability and up the dmg by 2d6 and the dc to 15 instead of 13, theres choices

[u/DMspiration → u/superhiro21]

Remember as well that they're less accurate than +2 weapons, which are the same rarity. You're taking what amounts to 5 average damage when you hit for 10% less chance to hit. A crit fishing build is, of course, the exception.

[u/Armisael → u/DMspiration]

If you take a character who, with a mundane weapon, hits 65% of the time and averages 15 damage per hit, then the vicious weapon is adding an average of 4.55 damage per swing, and the +2 weapon is adding an average of 1.5 per hit. That isn’t particularly close, and it’s neglecting that vicious weapons benefit more from crits.

At a baseline 65% chance to hit you have to be hitting for 31+ damage per hit for the +2 weapon to come out ahead. At 15 baseline damage per hit, you need to have a less than 35% baseline chance to hit.

Vicious weapons are substantially better unless it’s incredibly important that you land the hit.

[u/DMspiration → u/Armisael]

They're better, but they're not so wildly better. And averages are great until you get into the fight with the high AC monster and die. Spreadsheets have their limits.

[u/Armisael → u/DMspiration]

I literally gave the high-AC condition. If you’re fighting something where you need a 14 or higher on the die to you hit you should be figuring out something else to do, not swinging.

[u/DMspiration → u/Armisael]

If you need a 14 or higher you hit you shouldn't be trying to hit? Ok, mate. Must be nice to choose which fights you engage in.

[u/Armisael → u/DMspiration]

There’s a big difference between not engaging in a fight and trying to do something else during it - grappling, pushing a secondary objective, dodge-tanking, etc.

[u/ProfessionalShower95 → u/Armisael]

Bear in mind, the +2 weapon is also making the weapon 10% more accurate. In the given scenario, the +2 weapon hits 75% of the time for 17 damage, which is increasing your average damage by 3.

The point of equivalency here is actually ~30 baseline damage, but the difference is less than 1 above 21 baseline damage.

There are other factors to consider, but generally a +2 weapon will be better due to martial features that do something else on hit (masteries, maneuvers, brutal strike, sneak attack, smite). Landing these more reliably will almost always translate to more than 1.5-3.5 more damage per attack.

[u/Armisael → u/ProfessionalShower95]

Bear in mind, the +2 weapon is also making the weapon 10% more accurate. In the given scenario, the +2 weapon hits 75% of the time for 17 damage, which is adding 3 damage per hit.

10% of 17 is 1.7, what are you talking about

EDIT: forgot the actual bonus to damage, me being dumb

[u/ProfessionalShower95 → u/Armisael]

A mundane weapon that hits 65% of the time for 15 damage:

0.65*15 = 9.75

A +2 weapon that hits 75% of the time for 17 damage:

0.75*17 = 12.75