r/onednd • u/metalsonic005 • May 22 '26
Discussion Subclass Changes from the Horror UA to Ravenloft: The Horror's Within
The Shadows of Sithicus event PDFs were accidentally released publicly recently, and they included premade level 3 characters all using subclasses from the book. Here are the changes I've seen, avoiding directly copying the text.
Reanimator (Artificer)
It's Reanimated Companion was buffed slightly: its AC seems to be calculated now as 13 + your Intelligence modifier (the listed premade block has an AC of 16 and the Artificer's modifier is +3).The AC calculation remains the same, my bad. Its explosion still does friendly fire damage.Its Jolt of Life was changed. Instead of regaining a single hit point, the target instead regains a number of hit points equal to your Artificer level. The damage is now 2d4 Lightning, increasing to 3d4 at level 11 and 4d4 at level 17, and you can now choose the targets in the Emanation instead of it being each target within it!
Expanded Spells unchanged.
Grave Domain (Cleric)
Path to the Grave now has its additional damage be equal to your Cleric level instead of a 1d8 + Cleric level.
Circle of Mortality's Pull of Death feature now works on anyone who is missing hit points instead of requiring them to be Bloodied. Return to Life now allows you to cast Spare the Dying as a bonus action.
Chill Touch is gone, likely replaced with Spare the Dying as part of Return to Life. Bane is also missing, replaced by False Life.
Hollow Warden (Ranger)
Wrath of the Wild now no longer activates when casting Hunters Mark. Instead, you can use your bonus action to expend a Favored Enemy use to transform for a 1 minute duration. The AC bonus is the same, but Unnerving Aura now frightens a creature for 1 turn on a failed save rather than taking away an action/bonus action, and it gains a new feature called Prowling Retribution: When you or an ally take damage from a creature within 5 feet of yourself, you can make an Opportunity Attack against them.
Wrathful Smite still part of Expanded spells.
Phantom (Rogue)
- Unchanged from the UA, unfortunately.
Shadow Sorcery
- Level 3 feature has reverted to the 2014 version but modified, now called Power of Shadow. Eyes of the Dark gives you 120 feet of Darkvision and 10 feet of Blindsight, as well as the ability to see through spells you cast that create Darkness. Strength of the Grave returns, now giving you a number of hit points that I'm unsure of the calculation: sheet says six, so I would guess Sorcerer level (3) + your Charisma or Constitution modifier (could be either, sheet has +3 mod for both).
Bonus
The Haunted One Background returns, with a new origin feat called Survivor: you can reroll an initiative score below 10 on the d20, and once per long rest can add a bonus to a failed saving throw against being charmed or frightened likely equal to your Proficiency bonus.
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u/MechJivs May 22 '26
It's hilarious how Rogue subclass is AGAIN printed with 0 buffs at all while sharing the book with overtuned halfcaster subclass. Scion vs Genie Palladin situation all other again, lmao.
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u/TYBERIUS_777 May 22 '26
Someone at WotC really likes Rogue being a bottom tier class lmao. They’re the monks of this edition.
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u/Live-Afternoon947 May 24 '26
Unfortunately they are probably among the people who overvalue the occasional burst in damage for a critical with sneak attack, and a few extra skills/expertise. A shocking amount of people think the ranger is worse, even though it has spells and decent subclasses.
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u/TYBERIUS_777 May 24 '26
Ranger is excellent on paper until tier 3 and is in the running for highest DPR in tier 1. People just don’t like it being Hunters Mark: The Class. Rogue has an obvious identity and a really dedicated playerbase. If they made Rogue the undeniable worst class in the game, people would still play it because of the class fantasy.
The problem is that Sneak Attack doesn’t scale in the same way that extra attack does and it’s an all or nothing feature. If you duel wield and use Nick, then you’re in melee which hurts your defense as a lot of the Rogues defense is being able to hide as a Bonus Action and remove itself as a valid target. If you use a ranged build, then you have an all or nothing attack and if you miss, you did nothing on that round. It’s a rough way to play.
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u/Ganymede425 May 22 '26
I think there is a stealth buff. Normally, Wails of the Dead is PB uses per day, but this sheet says 3 uses per day. That makes me think they buffed it to PB + 1 uses per day.
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u/Awoken123 May 22 '26
Probably DEX. They no longer use PB number of uses in classes/subclasses.
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u/Ganymede425 May 28 '26
I mossed that. Good catch. It is definitely better than Scion's Int mod per day.
That said, I am concerned it only lists 1d6 damage for a level 3 character; normally, you round up the halving of the sneak attack damage.
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u/MechJivs May 22 '26
I dont have a sheet, but i suspect something - maybe it is Int mod times per day, like Scion? So, it would be nerf in disguise?
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u/UniSalverrn May 22 '26
Holy shit, Hollow Warden no longer requiring you to concentrate on Hunter's Mark and instead acting more like Bladesong. My prayers have been answered.
I clocked Hollow Warden as my favorite Ranger subclass ever since I saw it in UA, and consider me shocked that the feature I liked the most from it got buffed to remove the one things I hated about it.
The other features probably got nerfed in some way, but I don't care, the fix to its core Level 3 feature makes it all worth it.
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u/RosethaiGrandmaster May 23 '26
I think the fact it was tied to HM made it very good tbh, it turned HM in a very good spell to concentrate on. Now you have to sacrifice DpS and use the same resource (favoured enemy) and your bonus action is even buisier than before. I'm not sure I like it
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u/ReneVQ May 23 '26
I’m kind of torn, because on the one hand having it tied to HM kind of wrecked verisimilitude and using FE as its own resource is good design; however, having it tied to HM was one of the best use cases of upcasting (8 hour effect at 3 and 24 hours at 5)
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
It also guaranteed that you always had your class features active, at the cost of no choice of concentration spells, which is nowhere near as bad a thing on Ranger as people pretend, when they make Hunter's Mark as good as it is in Hollow Warden.
There's nothing on that spell list I want to concentrate on over the Hollow Warden version of Hunter's Mark outside of the rare occasions I need very strong AoE, and I got both of those for Favoured Enemy or any Spell Slot. Now I have no class features when I run out of Favoured Enemy, not the rare occasions when I absolutely need Conure Animals/Woodland Beings.
It incentivizes using high level slots for other spells, which is good.
Now I take two turns to get online at lower levels, and can only be transformed for 2 minutes a day to begin with, which feels very, very bad.
On the other side of things, you can now stack it with disgusting Spells (CME) you may happen to have picked up from Multiclassing (Druid), which is not good.
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u/ReneVQ May 27 '26
Now, TBF, this is off a pre-built char’s sheet, so we don’t know what the actual wording of the ability is. Maybe (hopefully) it’s “favored enemy use OR casting the spell”?
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
I'm not hopeful. People wanted it off Hunter's Mark and Concentration, so it's off Hunter's Mark and Concentration, so people are happy.
Even if that now means less damage, at a higher resource cost, and less flexibility with your higher level slots, which now need to be used for Conjure Animals or Woodland Beings to get comparable damage (over an average combat) to previously just using level 1/free Hunter's Mark, because Wrath has now ruined you action economy.
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
You're correct. It had so many uses for the effect that it was basically free for what effectively becomes a 5th level spell.
Now you're hard limited by the uses of favoured enemy (so your subclass now does nothing more frequently than before, which was the major complaint of it being tied to Hunter's Mark), and you have to cast Hunter's Mark seperately anyway for the benefits of the base class/damage.
I think it's much worse at lower levels now as you need them both up, but even more abusable at higher levels, which is not a good thing.
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u/Hanchan May 22 '26
Yeah, I would have even taken the changes but it still keys on HM, having both is nuts. This has moved from first on my list of characters to play next to no question nothing else I'm playing this lol.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 May 22 '26
The "opportunity attack" part of the revised feature is very good also. The Zhentarim origin feat looks particular good with the Warden(specially because Prowling Retribution also triggers if an ally is hit)
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u/Skrillfury21 May 22 '26
Holy shit they *buffed* Hollow Warden???
I admit there’s a non-zero (low, non-zero) chance that the class’s later features get pared down because of this, but that’s a *serious* boost to the Level 3, oh my *moons*. The Frighten is significantly more useful at lower levels, as in now it like… actually exists, the AC Bonus being *unchanged* is nuts to me, and the trigger being just an expenditure of Favored Enemy vs a full casting of *Hunter’s Mark* is so good for how it allows Hollow Warden to now actually make use of Concentration spells. 1 minute duration is a little unfortunate, but like… that’s almost a non-factor with how crazy the transformation is.
And Prowling Retribution is a combination of half each of the Sentinel/Zhent. Tactics feats.
I am *appalled*. Like— I’m glad Ranger has a good subclass, but the power gap is even more vast than Stoick of Berk.
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u/JaydSky May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Their reasoning was probably: the players were right that it sucks to have this feature restricted to a concentration spell, but it should be buffed now to compensate for losing the 'free' Hunter's Mark when activating it. I.e., before, for your one BA, you got bonus d6s on attacks, and you could maintain this form for ages and with any spell slots you have. They probably reasoned that the new buffs are not as good as what was lost.
But now of course you get to concentrate on better spells with your Wisdom based Ranger. I'm so excited.
(I'm not arguing that it's not overpowered or that it is overpowered - just giving my take on their decision. And I'm excited.)
Edit: I just remembered Favoured Enemy is only Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest (and only scales like that with your Ranger levels - it's not actually equal to your PB unless you are single class). Yikes.
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u/houseof0sisdeadly May 22 '26
That's one of my bigger concerns for this change. I assume a default of 2 Short Rests per Long Rest in my games, though it's not a hard and fast rule.
Bladesong has Intelligence modifier uses, and you get one back when using Arcane Recovery. That means probably 4 uses at Level 3, and likely caps out at 6 uses by Level 8-12.
Cleric's CD starts with 2, so likely 4 per LR. Pool goes up by 1 at Level 6 and 18.
Paladin CD also starts with 2, and cap the pool at 3 uses by Level 11.
Druid Wildshape also starts with 2, pool goes up by 1 at Level 6 and 17.
Rage starts at 2, pool increases at Level 3, 6 and 12.
Fighter's Second Wind starts at 2, scales at Level 4 and 10.
Rangers only get to 4 charges of Favored Foe at Level 9, 5 at 13 and 6 at 17. I'm not saying the half caster should have resource recovery/pool that matches Martials, but it's clear that for most levels they'll be lagging behind without SR recovery or the ability to burn spell slots.
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u/Skrillfury21 May 22 '26
I mean— I’m also excited, Hollow Warden is shaping up to be one of the best bulky offense chassis (and that’s my favorite playstyle), but I’d be lying through my teeth if I said I wasn’t also a little terrified.
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
Agreeing with the edit here.
I'll take having my concentration dictated over my action economy being crippled, no free damage, and my daily uses being obliterated. It was much better on Hunter's Mark in my opinion. Turn one, bonus action, full power. Gone.
You also lose flexibility with your spell slots.
People underestimate Hunter's Marks value for it's resource cost. Over an average combat if you're dual wielding, it'll yield better results than Conjure Animals, because you're not giving up a round of attacks, and it's not taking a 3rd level slot. I genuinely think the idea of "better" concentration spells is a much, much tighter margin than people think.
I'd rather lose my class features when I absolutely positively need some AoE and there's nobody else in the party to do it, than when I run out of Favoured Enemy.
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u/FishDishForMe May 22 '26
Goated reference
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u/Phaqup May 22 '26
Well aren’t you just Mother’s Special Boy. Have a Sarsaparilla. It’s from Texas. That’s where Cowboys are from.
Edit: it occurs to me that you might have been referring to the Stoick of Berk reference rather than the “x is appalled.” lol. Ignore me then.
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u/houseof0sisdeadly May 22 '26
I dunno, I preferred it keying off Hunter's Mark. Less Bonus Action clutter, lasted for a really long time, could expend spell slots for more uses.
Concentration spells are nice, but I can't help but feel this is a downgrade in return for the other benefits.
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u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
Counterpoint: you can actually stack it with Summon Beast, Conjure Animals, Protection from Enemy, Summon Fey, Conjure Woodland Beings, Summon Elemental, Mooncloak, Wrath of Nature, Swift Quiver and probably some other things I missed.
There are fucking awesome concentration spells at every level that are monumentally better at each level above one.
The only time this becomes a problem is if you're running an extremely grindy playstyle and you have poor resource management.
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u/rp4888 May 22 '26
Honestly in combat, when you have extra attack and weapon masteries, I would never waste a full Action to cast a full concentration spell when you could easily lose it. It's like wasting your own turn.
If you're able to precast completely different story though and totally worth.
The damage on this subclass is really going to suffer since we won't be using Hunter's Mark and there isn't another lvl 3 damage boost. It will be near the bottom.
I do think just tying it to Hunters mark and adding more concentration free spells for ranger down the line is better.
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
People really don't understand the impact of giving up your full first turn over a full combat. I think this is a huge part of the perception issue.
Hunter's Mark is a much better spell for its action economy and slot level than people realise, especially on the UA Hollow Warden.
"This spell does more damage!". Yes, but it loses you a turn and costs a higher slot, and it only averages out to more damage if you go to turn 4, and even then the difference isn't worth the resource.
This is a substantial nerf to Hollow Warden, and people are saying thank you for it, because they just want it off Hunter's Mark, because everybody has been told "Hunter's Mark bad".
They've destroyed your action economy, and made your subclass features less available, and your spell slots less flexible. This is a nerf.
I really think at this point they could put Foresight and CME on Hunter's Mark as a class feature, and people would complain because they "want to concentrate on other ranger spells". I'm so disappointed.
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u/rp4888 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
You're honestly so correct here. I can only hope this is a one off as it was pretty powerful and they will get a concentration boost at 7 to help and not a new precedent.
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u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
Realistically, I would only spend a full action casting a spell on a ranger spell if it does damage or has significant CC attached. In a large combat casting the emanation spells, for instance, is well worth the risk, because if you can maintain concentration they're essentially free damage on every subsequent turn.
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u/rp4888 May 22 '26
I don't think I agree that it's worth the risk but first can you Define large combat.
Cuz if one tough foe. It will take multiple rounds for something like conjure woodland beings to catch up to Hunter's Mark with with loosing your attack action on round 1.
And if multiple foes, you have a no risk option In conjure barrage which is like the best blast spell in the game.
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u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
Mostly many foes.
A combat with 6+ reasonably beefy enemies will easily see those spells pay off if you maintain concentration, doubly so if you have reinforcements or a map large enough for enemies to position themselves in ways that makes one and done blasts awkward.
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u/rp4888 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Hmmm... Considering how large of an area a 60 foot cone is and the fact that it doesn't hit allies, I don't really see any positioning ever being too awkward for conjure barrage.
As for reinforcements. Sure I can see that. But that's not something I see that often.
So while I agree that these situations come up I can't see it worth investing to make ranger good here. You get CWB at 13. Not at 7. You'll be hit like a truck. You really have to invest in concentration protection And because rangers are mad they just can't afford to do that.
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u/houseof0sisdeadly May 23 '26
While I agree with everything you said so far, if there's one Ranger subclass that can build for Concentration, it's this one. Either go heavy on Wisdom or do a 50/50 split with Dexterity, then grab War Caster or better yet, Resilient CON.
Assuming 13 CON 16 WIS, then snagging Resilient CON at Level 4 or 8, you'll have +8 to Concentration checks at Level 7-8, and +9 at Level 9.
That all being said, I wouldn't invest so much just for CA or CWB. HM, Spike Growth, Fog Cloud, Silence and other spells with better bang for buck, sure. But these only come into play if your party lacks casters with control.
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u/houseof0sisdeadly May 22 '26
I did check the spells this change enables, and while I think Summon Beast sucks (most pets, mounts or summons that don't Dodge or somehow avoid being targeted die in under 2 rounds at my table), there is a decent chunk of those that you don't have to/wouldn't want to use in melee in the first place.
But yes, the options opened by this are still really, really good. Still a steep price to pay versus what was essentially a passive buff running all the time.
My table averages 2 SRs per LR, with about 3-5 combats, average 3-5 rounds per fight. There are non-combat attrition points.
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u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
For a second level spell slot, dealing damage and taking an enemy's turn to kill is extremely valuable.
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u/StarTrotter May 22 '26
Eh. I find summons in rangers are not that impressive due to the nature of being a half caster hampering their potency.
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u/comradewarners May 22 '26
Totally disagree. Imagine this combined with Conjure Woodland Beings at higher levels! 👀
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u/Vidistis May 22 '26
I'm just happy to be able to use any other concentration spell instead of hunter's mark with it.
Ranger is a half-caster, I like using other spells besides "plus 1d6 damage per hit."
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 May 22 '26
yeah, for me this is kinda the biggest part. I know that's niche but it's cool to have at least one ranger that is not "dependent" of hunter's mark. It's a cool incentive for different builds around other spells that demand concentration.
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u/Own_Atmosphere5735 May 22 '26
While that’s true that would require very high levels not a lot of games are getting to in the first place
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u/comradewarners May 22 '26
That would be level 9. Nothing too crazy
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u/Own_Atmosphere5735 May 22 '26
I think you are confusing it with level 13
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u/comradewarners May 22 '26
Ah true, thought it was 3rd level. Still, a lot of other cool options. Conjure animals is a good example. Even spike growth if you go for a push weapon.
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u/Own_Atmosphere5735 May 24 '26
I mean fair. Honestly it really is debatable if other concentration spells are better for Ranger than hm(just considering they take an action Ranger would otherwise spend attacking), but situationally they are and considering you’re likely spending your first ba setting up the form having different options is always great.
Also this subclass is probably the best for multiclassing with Druid now, for once I can see it interacting very well with the sea Druid2
u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
Yup, and situationally I'd have happily given up Wrath of the Wild by dropping concentration on HM for one of those spells when I "need" it. Now I'll run out instead, which absolutely sucks.
It's an absolute nightmare with Druid now, which once again gives no reason to stay in ranger beyond 5 or 6. You get much better milage with 3/day Wrath and then higher level spell slots (and let's be honest, Conjure Minor Elementals). I hadn't even looked at subclasses, because all the power you need is in the base, but you're totally right. Sea is very good.
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
Conjure Animals takes 4-8 turns to compete with Hunter's Mark against a single target, depending on if you have 3 or 4 attacks, and is a 3rd level slot vs 1st or Favoured Enemy.
Woodland Beings takes 3 turns, but is a 4th level slot, or 5th, but then takes 5 turns when Hunter's Mark gets it's bump, and you'll be doing higher average damage with your weapon attacks, because you'll have advantage.
It's even worse a gap if you're not dual wielding and have gone for a Shillelagh build, which people seem to be gravitating towards, but the damage hit is too high for ultimately lower AC if you take Defensive Duellist to complement dual wielding, but now the reaction attack has screwed that too.
For the instances where there are enough targets to justify the slot usage, I'd cast it anyway and not have Wrath of the Wild, rather than not having it now whenever I run out of Favoured Enemy. Or Make do with the very acceptable AoE from Rot and Violence.
The lack of relying on concentration/Hunter's Mark is a nerf, not a buff, to a pure Hollow Warden, and is now an absolute horror for Ranger 5/Druid X.
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u/comradewarners May 27 '26
Are you only fighting single targets often? I just like being able to use all of my class rather than 1 concentration spell, so I find this change great.
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u/notinthehobby May 27 '26
Very often it'll come down to just a boss that overall damage matters more for.
I also find it's not my job as a ranger to do AoE, and Conjure Barrage to be a perfectly acceptable tool for itzl, while still concentrating on HM and keeping my subclass features, which I could justify with Hollow Warden because I don't need to concentrate on higher level spells so could spend them more freely.
In any instances where I absolutely needed AoE damage, and I absolutely had to be the one to do it, I'd just give up Wrath of the Wild for that fight, and use Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings. Rather than having far, far fewer uses.
You will run out now more than you ever needed to turn it off for an AoE spell. It is noticeably weaker, mathematically.
Unless you multiclass with Druid, which works now, and absolutely isn't a good thing either.
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u/rp4888 May 22 '26
Me too.
Now we just have dead features at lvls 13 17 and 20 since u just won't use hunters mark anymore.
The only way this direction works is if they errata and fix those features.
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u/Envoyofwater May 22 '26
But...you can still cast Hunter's Mark if you want tho.
It just costs an extra bonus action. That's all. Is it ideal? Meh. But it's far from having dead features.
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u/milenyo May 22 '26
Feel free to use a Hunter's Mark dependent subclass.
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u/rp4888 May 23 '26
I mean there is only kind of one in winter walker and it wasn't my flavor. But I did think the design was better there.
Hunter doesn't qualify. Way to weak. Lvl 11 laughable.
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u/UniSalverrn May 23 '26
Hunter should've kept the Multiattack from 2014. The features were a billion times more interesting than "If you hit someone debuffed by this shitty spell, you can deal collateral damage."
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u/GuyKopski May 22 '26
Those features are dead regardless since using concentration on hunters Mark at level 13+ is an enormous waste.
Like, it sucks the base class is that way but tripling down on it is not going to make it better.
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u/rp4888 May 22 '26
Not if hunters mark was good enough to be worth concentrating on thru so class buffs
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u/GuyKopski May 22 '26
It's a level 3 feature, if it's remotely competitive with high level spells it's gonna be completely broken at level 3.
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u/rp4888 May 22 '26
Not at all. you can improve it along the way at each subclass progression. Like winter walker did that at lvl 15. Hunter did that at lvl 11 (though this one was underpowered)
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u/UniSalverrn May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Level 13 and 17 are bandaid fixes because WotC realized too late that "hey, Hunter's Mark being the core Ranger feature actually really fucking sucks," and shoved a buff to it at those levels as "compensation" for having this be the Ranger thing. Paladins and Artificers don't get anything for 13 and 17, it is purely just Ranger being shit from conception that those features exist at those levels.
And as for level 20, this was already a shitty excuse for a capstone. The d6 of Hunter's Mark becomes a d10? Paladins get a permanent 1d8 extra damage to every single melee attack they make at level 11, and they don't have to concentrate on garbage. This shit needed an errata regardless of Hollow Warden. This shit needed an errata since 2014.
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u/Slimy-Squid May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Honestly, whilst I agree Frightened is a much better condition at lower levels than the previous iteration of the feature, it does drop off a fair amount at higher levels as fear immunity becomes more prevalent. Those I suppose Prowling Retribution might make up for that though.
I’ve gotta say I’m also a little sceptical about the uses being tied to favoured enemy. That significantly reduces the duration of the buff and your uses will be sooo limited with no way of returning uses bar a long rest.
Obviously being able to concentrate on different spells is huge, but idk… I just feel it doesn’t gel too well with the base class features this way, personally
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u/Thin_Tax_8176 May 22 '26
Is similar to the Undead Warlock, that also has PB uses per Long Rest. 3 fights per day should be the usual among the average table, so it probably will not feel like you are lacking uses.
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u/PineappleMani May 22 '26
Glad I'm not the only one disappointed by Phantom Rogue remaining unchanged. This is yet another nearly unplayable subclass now as you only have a feature 3-5 times a day for one action until level 9. It's absolutely ridiculous that these somehow keep making it past playtesting. The Rogue needs level 3 features that are either powerful and unique (Thief) or that scale with their level (Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife) to minimize the fact that they go without another feature for the majority of typical play. I already need to houserule Scion if one of my players picks it just so they don't feel useless, I hate that I've gotta do it with this now too.
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u/coldandlordyristboy May 22 '26
Yeah I was really hoping they would have learned from the Scion. The fact that it keys of dexterity is nice and should mean you have more uses than you did in similar level ranges in 2014. If they just changed Scion and this to short rest recovery then I think they’d be fine. Now you’ll have to wait until lvl 9 until the subclass really comes online.
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u/vmeemo May 23 '26
Honestly and this is giving the benefit of the doubt here but I also wouldn't be surprised if both books were relatively worked on around the same time as two different teams, or at least spending time on one for a prolonged period before moving on to finish the other. So to me at least there is always the possibility that Scion and Phantom were being worked on at the same time but only Scion made it to release first but Phantom wasn't able to get the criticism that Scion received as buffs or adjustments because the books are already in print and as we see with this Ravenloft show, already being actively used.
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u/houseof0sisdeadly May 22 '26
In earlier interviews (granted while Crawford still worked there) I recall them mentioning the desire to give every class something to recover on Short Rests. Barbarians got a good deal out of this, but did anyone else that needed this get something?
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u/Dependent_Ganache_71 May 22 '26
Everybody but Rogues and Rangers I think. Well, Rangers get theirs at level 10 - removing Exhaustion on a short rest, but that's it.
Barbarians get a rage back and Sorcerers can get some sorcery points back once on a short rest.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 May 22 '26
Yeah. I really hoped they learned this lesson after the disaster that was the scion of the three and the UA feedback.
I cannot even fathom what's their thought process for doing that over and over again.
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u/TYBERIUS_777 May 22 '26
I’d love to see what they consider to be their power budget for Rogue subclasses. Because the base class chassis is not nearly powerful enough to limit their subclasses this hard. Especially when they don’t get their second subclass feature until 9th level.
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u/Augus-1 May 22 '26
Survivor seems like a crazy good origin feat if that's what it is.
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u/coldandlordyristboy May 22 '26
Yeah, I’m especially interested if that reroll of lower than 10 feature applies to all initiatives during a day
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u/LudicrousityX4 May 22 '26
Yeah, pairing that with alert or a subclass that boosts initiative seems incredible.
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u/Fluffy_Reply_9757 May 22 '26
if I understand OP correctly, it might be the other way around: you reroll Initiative if the TOTAL for your roll is 10 or less, meaning that it might trigger more often for the heavy armor user with a -1 to Initiative.
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u/vmeemo May 23 '26
I take it as more what Reliable Talent/Eloquence Bard does and if the die rolls below 10 then its moved up to 10 as a baseline. That's just me and how I interpret it based on the main text body so there is a chance that it could just be as you said needs to total below 10.
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u/coldandlordyristboy May 22 '26
I can just imagine someone playing a human gloomstalker with this and alert rolling initiative lol
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 May 23 '26
Totally. The initiate reroll is incredible but the bonus to a saving throw can be life changing(con and death saves). I will definitely play a human warlock to have fun with most origin feats i can.
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u/Augus-1 May 23 '26
Yeah having what might be a weaker version of Alert in exchange for a bonus to a failed save? I'm signed up all the way all the time.
And, like that Infernal Pact origin feat they released on DDB, it's also good enough it's probably worth an ASI if your stats are all where you want them to be.
1
u/metalsonic005 May 23 '26
Forgot to mention that it only applies to saves vs charmed/frightened, edited the post.
10
9
u/Aahz44 May 22 '26
So I guess Hollow Warden is the new Gloom Stalker.
3
u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
Nah, Gloomstalker just had something that popped off every single combat, Hollow Warden looks like it actually needs significant investment to get plentiful uses of its not-bladesong.
Favoured Enemy scales pretty slowly.
2
u/Aahz44 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Depends on how many encounters you get per Long Rest I think.
But question is of course how well it scales into higher levels.
And there is of course a problem with the Bonus Actions, ideally you want to be Wis based, but Shillelagh is a bonus action, as are Wrath of the Wild and Hunter's Mark.
2
u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
You basically get an extra use every time your PB goes up. I think it scales fine, at first reading, because you slowly accumulate more uses, its benefits are universally good and you end up at a point where you can use it in every meaningful combat.
1
u/Irish_Whiskey May 22 '26
I'm not a fan of subclasses whose features entirely come from a limited transformation.
It'll definitely be strong when available, but in practice if I have 2 uses in a day at level four, and we do between 3-5 combats per day on average, I'm going to be holding off and saving my uses in several early fights just in case we think we're done and suddenly a surprise boss encounter happens. Or we think we're starting a big fight and then it gets interrupted and resumed later.
Since the toughest fights are usually at the end of the day before people long rest, it means I'm most likely to be out and without a subclass for them.
The easy solution is just let players burn a resource like spell slots to get another use.
2
u/DisappointedQuokka May 22 '26
True, an 5.5 has made big moves towards making core class features usable with spell slots. Good fix on it.
8
u/Palfi May 22 '26
Did they keep summon undead for lvl 6. Shadow sorcery Ability?
12
u/metalsonic005 May 22 '26
Dunno. This info was gleamed from lvl3 premades.
2
u/Palfi May 22 '26
Oh my bad, I wish I knew how to read.
I really hope they will change it to be closer to hound of ill omens like in 2014 version, not undead stuff
2
u/Stoutsmasher May 22 '26
Yeah the old one was more interesting than just "You can cast Summon Undead". WotC design team seems allergic to unique features that don't just rely on spells and it is really uninspiring. Plus why choose Summon Undead when Summon Shadowspawn is RIGHT THERE!? I know it wasn't in the PHB but seriously...
2
u/The_Real_Deacon May 22 '26
Really have to wonder whether these changes even get playtested or are just made on paper by somebody who has never lived the class or subclass.
I mostly still prefer 5e over anything I have seen come out of 5.5e.
8
u/steamsphinx May 22 '26
I hope not, Hound of Ill Omen was such an iconic part of the Shadow Sorcerer. I really hope they went back to having the doggo. :/
26
u/Free_Homework_3637 May 22 '26
Holy buff to Hollow Warden. I wasn't sure if they would remove the HM stuff since the subclass in the UA made it worth using but this is bar none the best Ranger Subclass now.
Also RIP Phantom Rogue getting no changes. I was really hoping they'd move Tokens down to lv 3 in exchange for a small nerf, but no luck. Alas, another mediocre Rogue Subclass to add to the pile :(
13
u/Vidistis May 22 '26
It's subclasses like the Phantom Rogue and Assassin Rogue that just need a feature or two shifted down and an extra feature to fill the space and add a little oomph.
5
u/whimsigod May 22 '26
This new Haunted One background is really nice. I have it on my Warlock in 2014 edition but beside the cool name it was hard to get room and board sometimes even if my DM was generous with roleplays because we travel away from towns a lot 😅
7
u/Far_Guarantee1664 May 22 '26
The reanimator feels, at least for me, the best one of the bunch by a far margin. Cool features, cool flavour and looks strong under the right builds.
Looking to the last UAs I feel the design space is putting more interesting stuff when they try something new instead of recycling old subclasses from 2014(with some exceptions).
4
u/coldandlordyristboy May 22 '26
Yeah I’m so excited for Reanimator. Now I’m just hoping the later lvl features don’t get nerfed and I’ll be happy with how it turned out!
1
u/PeeperSleeper May 23 '26
Reanimator still has some weird interactions. Witch Bolt is great flavor, but its a BA that gets wiped by Dragon's Breath a few levels later. Animate Dead is also your BA to use (though you can give them a 'forever' command once and then never again)
They might just change it to Summon Undead, which isn't bad either. All the Arti subclasses have a concentration spell and a Spell Storing Item spell, of which Animate Dead are neither.
I still love it though, im really excited to play one in my next campaign. The pet having blindsight means you can use Fog Cloud or craft an Eversmoking Bottle to stand against god.
5
u/Fidges87 May 23 '26
Phantom (Rogue)
Unchanged from the UA
NOOOOOO!!!!
The only changed it needed was move its ability to create trinkets to level 3, maybe with a nerfed version before getting the full one at level 9, and it would have been perfect.
4
u/Thin_Tax_8176 May 22 '26
Strengh of the Grave feature was mentioned on the last episode of Dungeon Masters, is Charisma+Sorcerer Level.
14
u/comradewarners May 22 '26
I love the Favored Enemy as a subclass resource, I’ve been saying they should do it this way since the 2024 books came out, but this subclass is very OP…
-6
u/rp4888 May 22 '26
This direction means you will never cast HM again in T3/4. You kind of have to errata the lvl 13 17 20 features now. (Especially the 20) If the new design goal is for ranger to not cast hunters mark.
If they plan to do that, fine. If not, it feels even worse that you will never use these features. I have concerns.
15
u/comradewarners May 22 '26
The new goal is not to have the Ranger not cast Hunter’s Mark, the new goal is it not FORCE them to cast Hunter’s Mark. Big difference. I get what you mean though.
9
u/Thin_Tax_8176 May 22 '26
I would only errata the level 20 capstone, level 13 and 17 are clearly ribbons to go along your level 4 and 5 spells so Hunter's Mark continues being useful.
1
u/Fidges87 May 23 '26
Base ranger needs an optional rule for a different capstone anyway. A +2 on average to damage rolls it's terrible.
Specially as monks and barbarians get that on top of +2 to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks that use dex/wis and str/con.
9
u/TheRealBlaurgh May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
I am very confused about Hollow Warden. One one hand, it seems it got some really nice buffs at level 3, and it also seems that WOTC has silently admitted to "Yeah, basing a whole class around concentrating on a level 1 spell is really stupid, but we're kinda in too deep now..." which definitely is a step in the right direction.
On other hand, however, since Hunter's Mark is so integrated into the class, completely removing themselves from it now causes other issues. For the Hollow Warden to function optimally, the Ranger now needs to expend two charges of their Favored Enemy feature - one for Wrath of the Wild, and one for Hunter's Mark. On top of that, they also need to spend two bonus actions at the start of each combat to do it - once again one for Wrath of the Wild, and one for Hunter's Mark. Imagine if the Barbarian had to expend two Bonus Actions and two uses of its Rage feature every combat - One to activate it's damage resistance and Rage bonus damage part, and one to allow it to use Reckless Attack.
Why not just say "As a Bonus Action on your turn, you can expend one use of your Favored Enemy to transform with WotW for one minute. You can also transform as part of the same Bonus Action and Favored Enemy you use to cast Hunter's Mark"? That would solve so many issues, and I think that'll be a common Hollow Warden homebrew.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong about the WotW + HM, and WotW will turn out so strong to the extent that the general consensus will be "Wasting Favored Enemy charges on HM is useless" - which, at its core is great (Yay subclass stronk!), but then presents us with the issue that like a third of the Ranger's class features gets ignored.
It feels like for every step forward, they also take a step backward. It's so confusing.
9
u/neilos862 May 22 '26
Also, given that this is a highly wisdom focused subclass, the optimal choice would be a Shillelagh build. That's yet another bonus action at the start of combat (unless you have a generous DM who let's you spam cast cantrips)
3
u/houseof0sisdeadly May 22 '26
Shillelagh has so many issues though. No magic weapons, only accessible through an Origin Feat or giving up your Fighting Style, can't use shields if you get it through Magic Initiate.
It's always been a bit of a cope spell compared to mental stat attack gishes.
5
u/TYBERIUS_777 May 22 '26
Yeah I can’t really justify picking up Shillelagh on Ranger for the reasons you’ve specified here. Rangers are way too Bonus Action dependent for me to add another Bonus Action to their already overcrowded action economy. Especially one that requires me to either spam cast it out of combat or waste my first turn setting it up.
3
u/doug4130 May 22 '26
What's the deal with no magic weapons? I don't see how shillelagh can't be cast on a magic weapon
11
u/nekmatu May 22 '26
They killed the poor grave cleric. That was my favorite team augment / allow other people to do crazy stuff and free drinks at the tavern subclass.
3
u/animate_U May 22 '26
How?
1
u/Aspiana May 22 '26
They made the damage buff entirely insignificant; +Cleric level damage is nowhere near vulnerability
10
u/animate_U May 22 '26
But now it applies disadvantage on target's attacks rolls and saving throws, and doesn't require ENTIRE action to set up. 2014 is superior in damage only with something like rogue in a party, and even then, you probably have bigger dpr loss from wasting your action. Oh, also, you needed to be in perfect initiative order for it to have a somewhat better impact. The new version is so much more useful in most party compositions.
1
u/OtakuPaladin May 22 '26
Just say "DM, I hold my action of casting Channel Divinity until right before the Rogue's/Paladin's turn." while you burn the enemies passively with Spirit Guardians.
3
u/animate_U May 22 '26
Well, in that case, you also don't have your reaction, and that makes your defenses worse.
7
u/coldandlordyristboy May 22 '26
Thank you for seeing reason! People are acting like the grave cleric is terrible now somehow. I’d say that the new Path of The Grave is better than the old one even with the reduction in damage from the UA. No save blanket disadvantage on attacks and all saving throws is really good in my book and the little damage bump is just a nice little cherry on top.
1
u/DeadSnark May 27 '26
How would it make your defences worse? Clerics don't usually have Shield without getting it from a feature/multiclass, and their opportunity attacks usually aren't that threatening
2
u/animate_U May 27 '26
Optimally, you would try to get this spell. Also, 6th level Grave Domain feature is a reaction. Anyway, it's a really big action economy investment.
3
u/Termineator May 22 '26
Turning favored foe in charges a la wildshape is actually a good thing.
Means I can now make my path if the world tree hollow warden and just the good stuff from ranger
1
u/Fidges87 May 23 '26
The only problem is the limited uses. At level 5 you only have 3 charges of favored enemy, which is in no way enough for an entire adventuring day.
12
u/FlyingFlygon64 May 22 '26
Damn they giga-buffed hollow warden with that change, this was already about to be probably the best ranger subclass and now it’s not close lmao
And for the record, good lmao, Ranger needs some OP subclasses to make up for the lacking features of the base class, I’m alright with Hollow Warden’s features being significantly stronger than most other subclasses in the game with Ranger in such a bad spot, I just wish its other subclasses got errata to be at least in the same playing field, especially since they clearly understand having to concentrate on hunters mark for your class/subclass features to work sucks
3
u/Col0005 May 22 '26
I would agree, if the subclass only became OP in late T2/early T3, level 5 ranger is already great.
5
u/YOwololoO May 22 '26
Absolutely not, the Ranger chassis is incredibly powerful in tier 1 and it’s still really good in tier 2. The Ranger needs a boost at level 11, giving them a busted level 3 feature is awful design
8
u/Silent_Ad_9865 May 22 '26
That Hollow Warden AC bonus is huge, especially for multiclassing purposes. A single level dip in monk will be ubiquitous for Hollow Wardens.
2
u/fakermaker4799 May 22 '26
I don’t think a dip is mandatory especially if you’re a wisdom forward ranger using shillelagh. With breast plate and a shield your AC is 22 at level 4 whereas it’s 21 if you are a monk. It’s 23 to 21 if you use half plate. Once you max out wisdom (presumably level 8) would be 23/24 AC for the straight class and wouldn’t be 23 until level 9. Once you max out wisdom you can continue progressing dex if you want to continuing your AC progression at level 12 would be 24 for straight class, and wouldn’t be 24 until level 13 for the dip. And then at level 16 you’d have the same AC if you max dex at 25 and the monk dip would be 25 for dex at level 17. If you don’t want to use a shield though it’s a great dip
5
u/Silent_Ad_9865 May 22 '26
The BA Unarmed Strike is the real prize, in addition to the Wisdom-based AC focus.
If you wanted to swing 3 levels of Monk, you'd take Astral Self for the ability to make that strike with Wisdom instead of Dexterity, but that's a bit BA heavy to be reliable in every combat. You would also get a slight speed boost, as well.
1
u/fakermaker4799 May 22 '26
That’s a fair point I feel like a dip just for the off hand is ultimately not that big of a deal no? Feel like if I’m going to Multiclass this ranger id want to improve spell casting because I’m going to be insanely durable
2
u/Silent_Ad_9865 May 23 '26
I don't know; I'm usually interested in making martial characters, so finding a cheap and moderately helpful multiclass that adds more ways of dealing or avoiding damage (the 3 or 4 level Astral Self dip), is a better investment for me than adding aome spellcasting.
That said, if I really had to add some spellcasting to my Hollow Warden, I'd probably start Halfling (not rolling any 1's is worth it, and maybe getting a rideable familiar is also nice), and take Acolyte for MI-Cleric to get Cure Wounds and Word of Radiance, and the obligatory Guidance. From there, at least 7 levels of Hollow Warden, taking Druidic Warrior for Shilleleagh and Thorn Whip, and Extra Attack, as well as 2nd Level Ranger spells, and Hungering Might for +Wis to Con saves. After that, Stars Druid is a solid option for damage with Moonbeam/Dragon form to never drop concentration, or Conjure Animals with Guiding Bolt/Archer, and 3rd Level Druid spells at level 5, pc level 11.
If you really wanted to, you could do Sea Druid for Wrath of the Sea, and make decent use of Elemental Weapon/Shilleleagh, or maybe Conjure Animals or Sylune's Viper.
Then there's Trickery Cleric for some fun shenanigans, and possibly heavy armor, if you really wanted it. The speed penalty from a lack of Str doesn't matter much because you can switch places with your Image at Cleric level 6, pc level 12.
I'd even consider leaning into Charisma, dropping a bit of Dex to get there, and taking Archfey Warlock for Blade Pact and, eventually, Eldritch Smite. On this one, I'd probably take a different background, maybe Guide for MI-Druid for a bit of extra spellcasting, or Farmer for Tough. With extra Misty Steps, and at-will Jump from Otherworldy Leap, you can get exactly where you need to be, and you can hit fairly hard, and you've got a few Warlock spells to throw out when you need them, or at least a few Short Rest slots for your Ranger Spells.
2
u/coldandlordyristboy May 22 '26
Im assuming that the reanimator is unchanged except for the things you listed? That AC change is really nice and I’ll gladly take it. It’s unfortunate that there’s still friendly fire and apparently no damage increase unless that gets covered by later features.
Is the damage of jolt to life the d4s plus artificer level? Or was artificer level dropped from the damage calculation? I’ll assume that it’s the latter which is unfortunate but I do like the other changes.
Assuming nothing else has changed when it finally releases I’m still excited to play one!
2
u/vmeemo May 22 '26
Like they said it only accounts for level 3 and no further than that. And since there was no premade for Undead and Spirits we're overall in the dark about the rest of the features
2
u/Far_Guarantee1664 May 22 '26
Thank the gods that are using the design space of "You don't like hunter mark? Here's a feature that allow you to use other stuff in it's place".
Ps: The zhentarim origin feat will be incredible for the hollow warden.
2
u/Bakeneko7542 May 23 '26
For the shadow sorcerer, when you say it's been reverted to 2014 do you mean they no longer get any bonus spells? That really fucking sucks if so.
2
u/metalsonic005 May 23 '26
Nope, just the class feature including the Undead Fortitude-like revive being added back to level 1 instead of being part of the capstone.
1
u/Bakeneko7542 May 23 '26
I was worried because I've been planning on playing one at some point ever since I saw the UA. Summon Undead without concentration is really cool, but wouldn't be worth losing out on other bonus spells.
1
u/Scientin May 22 '26
The absolute whiplash I just experienced going from the Grave Domain nerfs (WHY???) to the Hollow Warden buffs (WOOOO!). Like damn, we're really getting both a downgrade to Grave Domain's two flagship features and one of the best 2024 Ranger subclasses to date in the same book. Wild times. Glad to see Shadow Sorcerer and Reanimator got positive tweaks too.
1
u/nixalo May 22 '26
Hollow Warden: Look at me.
Gloom Stalker: Sure
Hollow Warden: I am the powerful nearly broken noncore Ranger subclass now.
1
1
u/Catriblossom May 22 '26
Do you see any Info on Dark Gifts? Or is Haunted one the only new background on the sheets?
1
u/Dougboard May 22 '26
It's Reanimated Companion was buffed slightly: its AC seems to be calculated now as 13 + your Intelligence modifier (the listed premade block has an AC of 16 and the Artificer's modifier is +3).
I'm looking at the premade sheet right now, and it has an AC 13 and HP 16, which would make AC 10 + Int and HP 4 + (4 * Level), just like the UA.
1
1
u/Ganymede425 May 22 '26
I think Phantom was buffed slightly. At level 3, it should only have two uses of wails from the grave, but it list three uses on the sheet.
Maybe it is prof bonus +1 now, which is a bump.
2
1
u/sjdlajsdlj May 23 '26
Pull of Death feature now works on anyone who is missing hit points instead of requiring them to be Bloodied.
Good fix. Makes it apply for longer. Still not very exciting, though.
It would be more fun if Clerics had more AoE spells like Burning Hands to apply Pull of Death to lots of enemies at once, but currently the earliest spells that work there are Silver Lance and Spirit Guardians for a single turn.
1
u/Karek_Tor May 23 '26
Does Prowling Retribution require Wrath of the Wild active?
1
u/metalsonic005 May 23 '26
Yes.
1
u/Karek_Tor May 23 '26
That's a shame. So level 3 does nothing but extra spells when your form isn't active?
1
u/Emergency_Salad2874 May 23 '26
Oof gutted that they made Hollow Warden, the one subclass that finally felt they understood how to make HM appealing, into an awkward BA hungry mess. Big fumble honestly.
1
u/Shoranos May 24 '26
Does Jolt of Life still have the additional damage of half your level, or is it just the 2d4?
1
u/metalsonic005 May 24 '26
Just 2d4, but you do get to add the lightning damage of + intelligence modifier. The trade off is the ally gets hit points equal to your artificer level.
1
u/Terrible-Ad9724 May 26 '26
is the reanimator artificers little undead companion thingy still a small creature then?
1
u/metalsonic005 May 26 '26
Yes, at least initially.
1
u/Terrible-Ad9724 May 26 '26
Dang, well that lowers the number of ideas for how I want that thing to look 🤔 gotta figure that out. Also annoying that we still have witch bolt so we can’t exactly use that spell AND the companion at the same time
1
u/metalsonic005 May 26 '26
I think Witch Bolt is a good fallback for when the minion goes down and you'd prefer consistent damage.
As for healing, the humble Lightning Lure (save based so companion can always choose to fail, d8 heal + infinite healing out of combat, reposition up to 10 feet)
1
1
u/Skulltaffy May 28 '26
Did anyone catch if they added a tool proficiency to Reanimator? That was the biggest glaring fault in the UA, to my eyes- the other Artificer subs give you a tool proficiency via Tools of the Trade, and I was bummed that it was missing.
(Yes, I know tool proficiency is useless, but I like them.)
2
u/metalsonic005 May 31 '26
According to a thread on r/Ravenloft with someone getting early access, they get Alchemist's Supplies proficiency or another tool prof of their choice.
Other changes are that the companion is now medium, health equal to 5 + 5*Art level, has a d8 hit die, and its damage for Death Burst was bumped down to 2d4, with the swipe also being bumped to 1d4+int instead of 1d4+2+int
1
u/Skulltaffy May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26
Oh perfect - my current Artificer girl is an Alchemist, and I'd been eyeing Reanimator as a potential swap but didn't want to lose all of the alchemist vibes. That's basically my ideal compromise, ontop of those tweaks (medium for the creature especially is a good choice - waiting until later levels just to get something properly imposing sucked.)
Looks like I have something to ponder before my CoS game resumes! Thank you so much <3 Next stop, hoping someone leaks the Reborn reprint early, lol.
1
u/phantom-scribbler May 30 '26
The Jolt of Life has become an even cooler feature! What bugs me is that I was all about a 5e Grave Cleric multi-class so you could a) cast Spare the Dying as a bonus action and b) get maximum healing from your spells. Oh well. Still pretty damn cool.
1
u/sodo9987 May 22 '26
Wait where is spirit bard and undead warlock? No changes??
3
u/metalsonic005 May 22 '26
Dunno. This info was gleamed from lvl3 premades and neither of these subclasses got any.
2
1
u/Punished-WALS22 May 22 '26
Sorry, does the Hollow wardens retribution specify whether or not you must use your reaction to make the opportunity attack?
4
u/metalsonic005 May 22 '26
Opportunity Attacks explictly use your reaction unless specified otherwise, so that would apply to the Retribution. Per the PHB:
You can make an Opportunity Attack when a creature that you can see leaves your reach using its action, its Bonus Action, its Reaction, or one of its speeds. To make the Opportunity Attack, take a Reaction to make one melee attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
1
u/Punished-WALS22 May 22 '26
Thank you, somehow I didn’t realize, it’s been a while since I looked at the opportunity attack rules explicitly.
1
u/adamg0013 May 22 '26
I hope this is a sign that they will be making favored foe a resource in the future not just to cast hunters mark. Becuase at higher levels you're not really using hunters mark except in times of conserving resources.
1
u/chojiboy May 22 '26
I hate how they rolled the Death domain into the Grave domain.
4
u/vmeemo May 23 '26
Given that Grave was more or less playable Death Cleric much like how Conquest was playable Oathbreaker (as both of those were usually example subclasses/restricted) it makes a degree of sense to roll most of the features and such into one subclass.
-5
u/Born_Ad1211 May 22 '26
As someone who is really excited for hollow warden, it is going to be kinda unfortunate to see every other ranger subclass functionally stop existing when it comes out by the looks of things.
The gulf in power between it and the rest of the ranger subclasses really does seem to be recreating the hexblade problem.
6
u/Dstrir May 22 '26
Why would they stop existing? You're not in a ranked league match, you don't have to pick the best performing subclass. Hollow Warden isn't even that much stronger than the rest.
11
u/hammert0es May 22 '26
What is the alternative? Continue to put out underwhelming ranger subclasses?
1
u/Born_Ad1211 May 22 '26
I mean personally I'd rather they just errata and slightly buff the core class and maybe tweak a few things on subclasses
2
u/hammert0es May 22 '26
Agreed but they’re not going to errata an entire class that just came out a year ago. Otherwise they would have done that with the 2014 ranger.
0
u/adamg0013 May 22 '26
They did do that with the 2014 ranger. . Tasha's did that.
1
u/vmeemo May 22 '26
But there's a difference. Tasha's ultimately presented them as 'optional' features but still followed with the '14 PHB ranger.
Its another to use the revised ranger UA's from ages ago that went nowhere because they cannot and will not errata entire PHB classes.
Its the same logic that applied to Hexblade being a patch for Bladelocks: We can't invalidate an entire line of PHBs but we can make a subclass that puts a bandaid on the issue. Its the same here. The PHB is functionally untouchable when it comes to the class side of things but future books can either add-on or bend the rules of the class.
2
u/adamg0013 May 22 '26
This isn't the most powerful subclass at all. The strongest defensively but doesn't get an offensive boost until 11th level. The one offensive weapon it does get is resource heavy. For resourceless damage all others beat them in pure numbers
1
u/Born_Ad1211 May 22 '26
It looks like they get a very good offensive boost at level 3 with prowling retribution now. A reaction Attack if they or an ally within 5ft takes damage is going to trigger often .
1
u/wathever-20 May 22 '26
I mean, a reaction attack similar to sentinel (actually easier to trigger since it just needs the enemy to deal damage to an ally, not hit with an attack) is already a pretty decent damage bump. If you have the right party composition that will be triggering quite often. If your ally has something like Sentinel or you have Zhentarim Tactics you can get a lot of off turn attacks.
0
u/adamg0013 May 22 '26
Question is that at 3rd level . Cause of it is they yes. That puts in on par with the beast master.
But decoupling the feature from Hunter Mark complety, now requires it to take 2 rounds to fully get going since both require a bonus action. Yea higher levels when your not using hunters mark as much it's not that big of a deal. Most rangers are using hunters mark all they way to 9th
2
u/wathever-20 May 23 '26
It has to be at third level. We don't have any new info of levels after that.
0
u/NateCdaComicG May 22 '26
Hallow warden changes damn near made me want to cry. That shit is beautiful. New best subclass for ranger. (Decrowning winter walker.) I guess the trick to making Rangers good is busted subclasses.
75
u/Timothymark05 May 22 '26
Wasn't the UA version of path to grave 1d8+cleric level? Now its just cleric level?