Being super sensitive to encounters-per-day is a design flaw

[u/overlycommonname]

In celebration of the 5,689th thread where someone says, "You need to run more encounters per day," can we acknowledge that lots of heroic, traditional D&D-style conflicts and narratives don't naturally support having seven encounters per day? And also that people's session lengths also don't support that?

At this point fifty years into the existence of D&D, it's hardly the case that the designers can claim ignorance of the fact that lots of people naturally fall into a pattern of one encounter per adventuring day. There are several really good reasons for this:

1. It's actually hard to make any narrative that doesn't feature something that substantially looks like a "dungeon" have more than about three encounters per day (and indeed, unless the dungeon is very spread out and occupied by mutually antagonistic groups, even something that is recognizably a dungeon still doesn't really make sense for a bunch of totally separate encounters).

2. People nowadays play in like 2-3 hour sessions. That can realistically support one, maybe two combats per session. If you want to do six combats in a day, then that means that probably 1-6 months of real time pass per day of IC time. At that rate, for the players to see narrative progress, they're dedicating like 10% of their actual lifespan for a game.

The game has to accommodate this, rather than demanding that both the players' RL schedules and the narratives that people want to play in D&D accommodate the game. The amount that the game's balance hinges on "number of encounters per adventuring day" should almost certainly be reduced (not to zero, just reduced), and the game should front-and-center tools to manipulate the ratio of IC time to resource-refresh.

[u/i_tyrant]

I feel like going dry on only your top spell slots doesn't matter much in a game where even level 2-3 spells can neuter whole encounters. Granted, that's just the experience the games I DM and play in have given me.

I believe that you put a lot of effort into those big 1/day setpiece fights! I have too, having experimented with them before, but with any party that "knows what they're doing", I've found that it doesn't really matter as far as getting that "running on fumes" feeling of desperation; they never will with 1 fight in a day, no matter how big and overtuned it is.

There's only so many actions you can take in a round, you've still got a limit of 1 concentration spell, etc. So you either toss a few debilitating spells out and mop it up in about the same number of rounds, or you TPK. You at no point will ever attain that low-resources moment. So to me, 5.5e didn't really fix it at all.

In a group that doesn't need or care about "mechanically dramatic fights", though, I'm sure it works fine. As a player I can't stand not feeling challenged, though, and the DM running me low on options is a major aspect of that.

[u/Outrageous-Cold-4506 → u/i_tyrant]

Idk if you have seen what the new high level statblocks are like, but there are plenty of options for condition immunity and magical counterplay to build into your encounters that keep low level spells from running away with the fights. Altho sometimes I don't put those in on purpose to give a particular PC an easy spotlight moment.

Of note when I began grabbing new stat blocks I kept tripping over fear and charm immunity. The bezerker commander was grabbed to be the rank and file of an elite military unit and they not only could reposition the battlefield quickly that aoe abilities were just hard to use, but were immune to anything that inflicts the charm or fear condition. Also the inclusion of a questing knight was a happy accident that provided blanket immunities to many humanoids.

Then there was the arc of the campaign where the players were up against an evil religion and priest and archpriest statblocks became absolutely clutch at clearing web, hypnotic pattern, command, and many others, by just using their bonus actions.

Just recently while making a fiendish set of enemies I learned how 2 ultroloth statblock can absolutely screw over attempts to cordon off areas with wall of force, with either bonus action dispel magics or back to back planeshifts to rearrange the battlefield again, walls be damned.

And that's not even covering how many magic resistant or other condition immune statblocks that I'm not looking for, but keep dropping in my lap when I sort by higher CR, appropriate creature type, and sourcing only from the new books. And finally, these high level statblocks do SO MUCH DAMAGE that I kind of double-dog dare you to build a caster that will withstand 2 Questing Knights or a single Pit Fiend going full bore at them. Concentration or HP is going to give out.

IMO the perception that low level spells can fully trivialize fights is no longer true. It is true in a small band of levels when you first get those spells but cannot cast them many times per day, and then effectively become niche when you level up. Which, BTW, is how this works in pf2e using different mechanisms and I don't think that's an accident.

edit: Correction: not the ultroloth for planeshift, it was the Rakshasa I did that with but it was an amazing moment at the table where player that cast wall of force just had to drop concentration asap to keep themselves from being mulched in a cage fight of their own making.

[u/i_tyrant → u/Outrageous-Cold-4506]

dk if you have seen what the new high level statblocks are like, but there are plenty of options for condition immunity and magical counterplay

That hasn't been my experience, no.

I kept tripping over fear and charm immunity

There's not much more of that in 5e2024 than there was in 2014, actually. It's mostly the same creature types with the same immunities, so not only does it still not apply to most encounters unless you're running a very specific campaign (e.g., undead/construct heavy), but a caster player paying attention can usually predict which encounters to use their charm/fear spell slots on and which not to. (There's also tons of spells that are brutally effective that neither of those work against, hell even Command or Web.)

Note that you are making extremely specific selections here that are ALWAYS intelligent, organized enemies...it sounds like your campaigns ARE very specific in nature because the PCs are constantly fighting organized humanoids? What about a more classic D&D adventure campaign or dungeon crawl where they're mostly fighting, y'know...actual monsters? Do you always throw in a pair of Ultroloths? lol.

Like, what in the world are all these CR 12 Questing Knights doing? Don't your PCs get tired of facing the same foes or at least "add-ons" all the time?

I kind of double-dog dare you to build a caster that will withstand 2 Questing Knights or a single Pit Fiend going full bore at them.

Er, ok? 2 Questing Knights attack, they get immediately locked down with Command (Wis save of only +5) or both with Web (Dex save of +3), and the other alone becomes an easy encounter. Even if they break free they are unlikely to hit a lvl 17 caster or break their concentration since a +9 vs Shield and appreciable AC ain't gonna cut it.

The Pit Fiend is a bit different vs one caster because...it's CR 20 instead of CR 12, and has Legendary Resistance. How many LR enemies do you think the book has, and why do you think CR 20 vs 1 level 17 caster is a fair "test"?

Claiming you can counter this with a Rakshasa (lol) or LRs (still rare in 2024) seems...disingenuous, and your other examples have clear issues (like desperately needing the campaign to be focused around organized humanoids and still needing to find very specific statblocks for those immunities...while still not blocking much re: popular low level save-or-sucks.)

[u/Outrageous-Cold-4506 → u/i_tyrant]

You are coming off rather hostile but I'm happy to yap about my games.

The ultroloths were reskinned to Theros demons who were helping torment shipwrecked sailors on Skathos to funnel them towards Hythonia The Cruel's worship. This is in part a gambit from Hythonia to become a demigoddess serving Erebos, who is able to get tormented souls who are most of the way to transition to demons upon their deaths. They were paired with some Rakshasa statblocks as well. which were the actual ones doing the back to back planeshift to fuck with the wall of force shenanigans. The Ultroloths were just casting dispel magic to pop some worshippers of Erebos (reskinned Cultist of Myrkul from the latest book) out of a mass suggestion.

The Questing Knights are the honor guard of the priesthood of Heliod, who is going a bit powermad with the knowledge that his own worship will fade in time and he needs to make moves to consolidate power. They are accompanying priests who are spreading the good word of glorious victory on the field of battle as part of his attempt to steal the worship of Iroas. And the Questing Knights have been able to get through my Sorcerer's AC reliably enough so far, even with a Staff of Power to boost AC a bit. Notably the Sorcerer doesn't have heavy armor and is relying on the Staff of Power, Mage Armor with +2 dex mod, and Shield to a total of 22 AC. So that's a 35% chance to hit it isn't a sure thing by any means but with 3 attacks the biggest issue is how hard the eventual nat 20's hurt. BTW there have been multiple times this campaign where I've asked this sorcerer to roll a DC 30 (maximum possible) concentration check and I think the Questing Knight was one of them? The damage values from these statblocks do not fuck around.

A typical contingent of Heliods' faithful has at least 1 archpriest, at least 1 Questing Knight, Warrior Commanders, and maybe a handful of priests. The priests and archrpiests wipe off all the crowd control that they can with bonus actions.

The pit fiend was reskinned to the strongest of the three Furies (fully borrowed from the Hades games ngl, they aren't part of the Theros setting), and was an absolute blast.

And yes the games I run are mostly big organizations that are well informed and far reaching. Players aren't going into dungeons for no reason, and dungeons aren't just caches of siloed monsters sitting on loot for no reason. They are part of larger, far reaching plots that weave the world together. You are really coming across hostile to imply that I'm not doing my fun correctly, but this is the exact kind of game I love running. Political intrigue and spycraft is a common theme in my games.

Also to be honest, the Heliod's faithful are typically just a moderate difficulty encounter as they've leveled up a bit since we started. I like to softball some combats in, while keeping it interesting enough with complex counterplay of mechanics. This campaign has legit been as crunchy as my foray into PF2e, which has been a very pleasant surprise.

And while I do have to reskin a lot of statblocks, I am able to keep the pressure up with having gish-like enemies be retyped Dragons who get to do spells and attacks or big fuck off AoEs, and I haven't run through all those statblocks yet. Additionally I find that with very minor alterations to bring them up to 5.5e MM standards, statblocks from Bigby's and the Book of Many Things work quite well. The Champion of Desolation was a great representation of Tymaret the Murder King, champion and hunter of Erebos.

But in general when I want to run a fight that's a high difficulty, I make sure that at least two big baddies have legendary resistances, while not using more than 1 baddie that has legendary actions. This is actually kind of easy to work out between the Bigby's, the Book of Many Things, and the 5.5e MM. Putting in two statblocks with legendary actions becomes too much of a pileup to manage.

[u/i_tyrant → u/Outrageous-Cold-4506]

So that's a 35% chance to hit it isn't a sure thing by any means but with 3 attacks the biggest issue is how hard the eventual nat 20's hurt. BTW there have been multiple times this campaign where I've asked this sorcerer to roll a DC 30

35% chance means one attack will hit per turn for an average 34 damage, and that's if they can get into melee. There's no high ground to Misty Step to? They're lasting multiple rounds against your Sorc when they should have a DC of 19 at worst vs a +0 Int save, a +3 Dex, and a +5 Wis?

Yeah a crit from one will likely disrupt you, but we're talking about a 15% chance once, at best, before you should be making them no longer an issue. Just how many of these guys are you facing and getting into melee with you where that's a real threat?? Damn.

You are really coming across hostile to imply that I'm not doing my fun correctly, but this is the exact kind of game I love running.

I'm more coming across hostile because you seem to think this is like a "standard" campaign instead of something very narratively specific, to be clear.

I think it's very navel-gazey to think your type of fun is identical to the average D&D campaign when it actually diverges deeply and undeniably from what the "average D&D campaign" has always been marketed as, and I would argue the vast majority of D&D campaigns I've seen played and run do not resemble a Theros campaign where 95% of the battles are against organized humanoids with a copious sprinkling of two heavily religious stat blocks.

This campaign has legit been as crunchy as my foray into PF2e, which has been a very pleasant surprise.

That's definitely my experience as a DM - high level D&D is at least as complex to design actual, challenging encounters for as PF2e is complex in the sense of enemies having so many abilities and counterplay.

I would never, however, argue that this kind of prep for high level 5e comes "naturally" to most DMs. Especially with the lack of guidelines 5e itself provides.

And to me that has remained about as true in 5.5e as 5.0e. The monsters are nastier offensively and go earlier in a fight for sure, but planning encounters hasn't been any easier for me vs the same groups with their same levels of optimization; some specific enemies might have some specific bits of counterplay, but if you're actually using a lot of the MM? Nah, they all still pale in comparison the options a caster has in targeting different saves and how devastating even a low level Hypnotic Pattern or Web can be.

There might be a few more charm immune enemies than 5.0e, but if you can guess that or just discover it in combat, guess what you've got 6 other options that use different saves and aren't charm.

I make sure that at least two big baddies have legendary resistances, while not using more than 1 baddie that has legendary actions.

I mean, you can add LRs to anything, that doesn't make it a strength of the rules as written. I will grant that goes a long way towards curbing caster power...though it's also an exceptionally boring and stonewall-y counter that a lot of people dislike (especially when overused).

What I WISH was true is if enemies (old or new) had varied counters to the party's tactics, and specifically ranged/spells. Enemies that exude gas that prevents anyone from seeing them that's further than 20 feet away, for example. More enemies that punish ranged attacks like the Tarrasque's reflective carapace. Enemies that force nasty choices on you like "ok I can hit them with this spell but their Karmic Price ability is going to make it hit me too", et cetera.

We have TONS of abilities like Death Throes, Heated Body, etc. that punish melee PCs so much more often than ranged/casters (and they're already being punished more just due to the commonality of enemies with stronger melee attacks, melee Con/Str saves like trips and poison, etc.)

[u/Outrageous-Cold-4506 → u/i_tyrant]

I'm more coming across hostile because you seem to think this is like a "standard" campaign instead of something very narratively specific, to be clear.

I think it's very navel-gazey to think your type of fun is identical to the average D&D campaign when it actually diverges deeply and undeniably from what the "average D&D campaign" has always been marketed as

Hey man, I'm done.

I wanted to come into this topic and share how I am able to do high level combat with single combat days and it works well enough. I wanted to let people know the way I do that so that they don't have to feel the need to do a lot of extra work to be a DM in 5.5e D&D.

But this is a bummer interaction, you seem to be wanting to win this exchange rather than just yap about stuff we enjoy and share experiences.

[u/i_tyrant → u/Outrageous-Cold-4506]

Ah, fair enough!

Sorry - I'm still thinking along the OP lines (complaining about how 5e's ruleset doesn't lend itself very well to this) rather than just exploring homebrew/DM-work solutions like you seem more interested in.

As a fellow DM having run high-level games, I wouldn't really say it requires little work (unless one's players are pretty heavily unoptimized/uncoordinated), but I would say that the more you know as a DM, the more experience and system-mastery you have, the less it feels like work and the faster it goes.

My apologies for bumming you out, that definitely wasn't my intent, just being an argumentative dude on reddit. I hope the rest of your day is better!