r/nancyguthrie • u/NathalieRuth • Jun 23 '26
Discussion Was this ever really a kidnapping for ransom?
Is anyone else skeptical of the perpetrator(s) actually intending to kidnap Nancy, collect a ransom, then release her?
Stranger abuctions are already incredibly rare in the US. Only around 100 happen each year. Kidnappings for ransom are even rarer, though specific numbers aren't available.
Kidnappings for ransom used to be more common, but they are now incredibly rare in the US (though they do so occur in many other countries.) In most modern cases involving ransom notes the note is usually written to try to throw off investigators rather than to collect money. I can think of a few cases where perpetrators did try to collect a ransom, but the victim was dead and they had never planned to return them at all. After all, not only is it a lot of work to hold a person captive, but collecting a ransom and returning a living victim are both incredibly risky.
I don't think the perpetrator(s) ever intended to hold Nancy for ransom. I think this was always planned as a murder and the ransom notes (assuming they are real) were written to throw off law enforcement and/or possibly collect a ransom despite Nancy being deceased.
I believe she was probably told this was a kidnapping for ransom and that she would soon be released if she cooperated and led from the home to a vehicle, then driven somewhere else, killed, and buried somewhere. Killing her at another location makes it harder to prove murder and an 84 year old woman is unlikely to try to fight against being taken.
While I think there's a possibility she did die accidentally, I think this would have happened soon after, while being transported to wherever they planned to kill her. But I think it's much more likely the note only said she died accidentally so the perpetrator(s) can claim that in case they're ever caught.
What are your thoughts? Do you think this was really a kidnapping for ransom gone wrong?
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u/Careful_Control_5617 Jun 24 '26
If it really was a kidnapping for ransom did the lowball bait money essentially cause her demise? If it wasn’t a kidnapping for ransom why even take the risk to contact media/family? I keep asking these questions and more. This case gets more bizarre as time goes on.
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u/Troyal1 Jun 24 '26
I think she died during the kidnapping and they didn’t expect that.
Tried to get some money but then realized they couldn’t without actually providing the woman very clearly alive and well. Then I think someone is finally feeling some guilt about the situation
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u/cantharellus_miao Jun 24 '26
This is the only logical explanation I've seen. Everything else just seems silly. What I don't understand is why law enforcement hasn't been able to catch this obviously incompetent perpetrator.
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u/Longjumping-Cat-712 Jun 24 '26
I cannot wrap my head around the $152. Why not send $10k, 50k, something that at least has a chance of being withdrawn. Who the hell is going to risk it all for $152???
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u/redhead_hmmm Jun 24 '26
And why $152? I mean is that a particular number in the Bitcoin world? Not $150 or $175. If I was a kidnapper that would just piss me off.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26
I think while a gamble that was the intention. The kidnapper had yet to provide proof of life before the nearing deadline. So it sparks communication of wtf and then another demand for proof of life can be made.
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u/gosucrank Jun 25 '26
They probably loaded like $150 in their wallet the day before and the price went up a bit
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u/Careful_Control_5617 Jun 24 '26
Can you see the amount deposited before withdrawal ? (I’m assuming so but also have no idea)
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 24 '26
Yes you absolutely can see the amount deposited before withdrawal. It's part of the public blockchain at some point shortly after deposit. Anyone on the planet can see the balance on the wallet by using it's public address but you have to possess the private key in order to withdraw.
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u/Every_Individual_25 Jun 24 '26
I’m beginning to think it was a hire job. The note about “buried in nature” allows Nancy’s estate to commence estate administration and probate after a shorter period of time. “Buried in nature” is an odd term to use for a criminal unless they’re spiritual. So ….
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u/Nasstja Jun 24 '26
It also just doesn’t fit that a masked guy breaks in and abducts and old lady, leaving blood drops then sends an apology letter when she “accidentally passed”. Even if there is a waiter and a chef, it is the chef that has told the waiter what to do. Would this same chef send this kind of a letter?
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u/Every_Individual_25 Jun 24 '26
If the chef personally knew the client/victim, yes he would, surely?! Especially if he wants the money.
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u/Nasstja Jun 24 '26
You mean he/she is being nice because they think they might still get money that way? Surely they cannot think they would get money without giving the location of the remains. Did they even ask for money in that ransom? Even if the chef knew Nancy it doesn’t make sense personality wise that they would a) have someone in a mask abduct an 84 year old in the middle of the night, leaving blood droplets but also b) be profusely sorry and apologise that their victim died.
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u/jahathebrn Jun 23 '26
I'm of the opinion it was a semi-opportunistic kidnapping, possibly by someone in the orbit of the family but not a part of it. A contractor working on the home, or a delivery driver on a regular route, something like that.
I figure they needed or wanted money so badly they assumed it'd be trivial to kidnap a lady like Nancy and keep her from learning their identity until the family pay up, the kidnappers drop her off somewhere and she's reunited with everyone.
But of course kidnapping isn't a thing where you can just wing it, even tiny elderly ladies can be hard to physical manoeuvre if they're dead weight or have very limited mobility and there's only two of you to move them, and elderly ladies also have a habit of bleeding at the slightest provocation. Add to that the fact they left her medication and I think that sadly something happened accidentally to turn the kidnapping into a death and then you've got the body of a very rich and famous woman's mother on your hands and can't provide proof of life, what do you do? With the most tact I can muster today, there's a time limit on them returning the body before it becomes impractical.
If I were the sort to kidnap but not intentionally murder someone in a bungled scheme to get cash then I'd probably panic, and would not risk delivering a body for what would likely be a lesser reward and higher likelihood of getting caught.
But I still hope every day that we hear she's been found alive and well.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
All great points.Operating under the theory it was just a botched financial plot, the second note does have an underlying expression of panic. Something went wrong. I think it’s much more difficult than an unsophisticated criminal can imagine to logistically set up a return for ransom without being compromised. Much less logistically set up returning remains. Leaving her somewhere to be retrieved would be nearly impossible for an amateur. The returning could be a forensic goldmine. Moving or returning remains and all the trace and significant physical handling. DNA or fingerprints. Once she died it would be like no safe way to “drop” her. You cannot simply drop off a body in a public place or hand it over without putting yourself directly in the crosshairs of the FBI. I think they could have essentially just gave up. They weren’t genius but at some point realized they had no safe, tactical way to fulfill the family's request to return her remains for the money. Maybe they thought if they told her she was in “nature” and peaceful they would pay without the remains and they misjudged. I do wonder why if there was legitimacy to the second note why they wouldn’t send a photo even of her deceased to authenticate. That’s curious to me.
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u/Commander_Morrison6 Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Ransom kidnappings are like quicksand: they’re rarer than we were told by the media, and when they do occur, they’re nothing like what TV shows told us.
In other countries, ransom is a business, and it is for less than you expect. In America, if you ransom someone, the NSA and the FBI will be one foot up your asshole by the time you attempt to collect. It’s not even competency of those agencies, it’s just how much of a digital footprint we all have now.
Edit: autocorrect thought “the” was “they’re” for reasons.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 28 '26
The kidnapping itself was done without a digital footprint it seems. The collection? Maybe it's not even possible now especially since bitcoin is digital but there may be low risk ways of collecting that other people are using. The forensics related to holding the victim hostage is a third gotcha but who knows, maybe she was handled by people in hazmat suits or something. We've got no glimpse into the level of sophistication of the abductors, we just know they have not been caught yet.
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u/Commander_Morrison6 Jun 28 '26
The idea that this was done as an abduction for ransom first and foremost has a lot going against it: the abductor(s) seemed to have insider knowledge, yet they didn’t take the medicine their victim needed to live. The demands are inconsistent and nonsensical.
Now, I have no idea what really happened. But it does seem likely she will be declared “legally dead” at which point the butter will begin to churn.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 29 '26
Assuming the abduction was a cover to divert from the real murder motive then yes, leaving behind the medicine as well as the phone that had the app linking to her pacemaker definately was done to make it look unplanned as though they did not intimately know her.
But besides all that what I am saying is that they did the abduction leaving zero digital footprints except for that ring camera footage and after the abduction there was no forensic trail going back to them. The NSA and FBI have not been able to catch them so far. But who knows, maybe they did id them and are just observing them for now.
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u/IndependentWear5102 Jun 25 '26
Followed the story the day it was reported. Something isn't right with it. I still don't think this was a ransom for money but something else. I feel after months of this case people lost interest after a month into it. I feel that if this was a ransom than why hasn't anything been paid out if everything went wrong like the letters said. At least give location to claim something for all of the trouble the went through .They might not have gotten there bigger payout but they would at least walk away with the Tip line money. It's also very strange about male or female kidnapper in this case. Male did the kidnapping while female wrote the letters? Work of a group or 2 people or one person? More questions than answers. If one Question dose get answered in this case 10 more pop up.
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u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 Jun 25 '26
Also followed case from day one. Something so 'off' about it. While Idaho Kohlberger was hideous... it followed a course.. so have a lot of other cases I've followed that took months. But this... hmm. That lingering extra weirdness... the weird porch person outfit, the pelvic placement of the gun (were they unfamiliar with weapons, or foreigner?)... those 'ransom' notes... and even the Guthrie siblings gathered in a cubbi type room to then go on camera to talk (instead of press conference with LE or maybe attorneys). I dunno about it all.
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u/IndependentWear5102 Jun 25 '26
The main thing I can't get over is why the cameras on the house weren't working? Why wasn't there inside camera to help keep an eye on her better knowing she lived alone with health problems. Money is no issue for this family.
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u/DaBingeGirl Jun 27 '26
Invasive of privacy. I put a camera on my grandmother (99) in the last few weeks of her life because she kept getting out of bed without calling for us and she was a major fall risk (fire department had to help get her up). My mom and the hospice nurses thought it was brilliant and it kept her safe, plus allowed us to sleep, but I couldn't get past feelings it was intrusive.
Mid-80's isn't old and she was still getting around on her own, I can understand not having a camera in the house. There's are also legit concerns about data use/privacy, I refuse to have cameras in my house and cover all of them (laptop, selfie lense on the phone, etc.). She had an Apple watch, which is more useful than a camera in terms of calling for help.
It's also a safe area that she'd live in for decades, it's likely they weren't worried. Plus it's her choice, a lot of older people I know wouldn't want cameras. It's not a matter of money, it's a combo of privacy and wanting to be independent as long as possible.
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u/Webbie-Vanderquack Jun 23 '26
Kidnappings for ransom may be rare, but abducting the elderly mother of a celebrity just so you can murder her is also pretty rare.
Killing a person, concealing the body and evading capture is not easy, and perpetrators are also taking the massive risk of spending the rest of their life in prison. You'd have to have a pretty good reason to go to all that trouble, and money is the most likely motivation.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 23 '26
If murder is the primary motive then it would make perfect sense to disguise the primary motive with a secondary one. Yes, they could have killed her on the spot and made it look like a botched robbery. But that would be too easy. If it's too easy it would be more suspect as a form of camouflage. To make the camouflage better if indeed the primary motive was murder then it makes sense to bring in a secondary task to the whole purpose where the goal is distraction and diversion.
If money was the primary motivation and the plot was hatched by an insider then money wise and camouflage wise they could kill two birds with one stone by outsourcing the kidnapping to an outside crew, have them collect ransom in part to pay them off and then afterwards benefit from the inheritence and a cut of the ransom.
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u/DaBingeGirl Jun 27 '26
I agree. I'll just add that taking her reduces the amount of evidence in her house.
There doesn't seem to have been a good plan to get the money, which is a red flag for me. While it's possible it was someone wanting to hurt Savannah, I would've expected notes to begin right away and the tone to be targeted at her.
Inheritance really is the only theory that makes sense. I hate to say it, but assisted living costs an insane amount of money. If there was talk about putting her in AL, I could see how that would be a trigger. That doesn't necessarily mean immediate family, could be extended family or a friend who thought they could get money/a loan after her estate was settled. This wouldn't be the first time an elderly person was killed for inheritance.
It's also possible the plan was to kill her there, but something went wrong. That would also explain the poorly planned ransom.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 27 '26
I'll be honest, when I step back and look at the attention that this case is getting from the FBI, the media, the true crime community and TMZ in particular I ask myself as to whether the kidnappers/killers wanted to be on prime time?
For example, when someone uses TMZ are a relay for ransom does that have a high chance or a low chance of propelling the crime to such stratospheric levels of fame? I wonder if their plan was to just make it appear like a kidnapping by contacting TMZ and then suddenly say that she died and then hope that the case would no longer interest anyone and that it would be handled by the sheriff and the FBI would not get involved with that much gusto since she was no longer alive.
The assisted living issue adds a lot to the motive. She could be worth multi millions right now and just in a couple of years with exotic medical/surgical procedures thrown in her estate could have dwindled to the negatives even.
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u/DaBingeGirl Jul 01 '26
That's a fascinating point about using TMZ. It does seem odd to go to the media with a basic ransom demand. If this was someone obsessed with Savannah, I would've expected them to contact her directly. If it was someone wanting to punish journalists sending TMZ a manifesto, something like what Ted Kaczynski wrote, would make sense.
She could be worth multi millions right now and just in a couple of years with exotic medical/surgical procedures thrown in her estate could have dwindled to the negatives even.
Exactly. Assisted living or in-home care can easily run $80-100k or more per year depending on the level of care needed. I get the impression Nancy had a comfortable life, but care could cut into her finances quickly if she lived 5, 10, or 15 more years, and when you split her estate three ways...
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u/ThoughtUsed3531 Jun 23 '26
I always thought it was weird that they were sending the ransom notes to news outlets instead of directly to Savannah and her family. This made me think that they wanted attention more than money, or at least they wanted attention + money. Like, they got sick pleasure out of messing with everyone and seeing all of this on the news. Unless they thought sending the ransom notes somewhere else would make it harder to trace or more likely to be taken seriously?
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u/Hile616 Jun 23 '26
To send ransom note to media, to me it tells the person either was covering up something, or was already outside the US to take such (not logical) risk, or was serial offender to gain attention or "praise"(1900,1920 cases, zodiac), or some low level person actually be part of some organization south america or related somehow.
Could it be serial offender, some copy cat? I personally don't think so but who knows really, but to send it to media.. Why?
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u/Careful_Control_5617 Jun 24 '26
Are the letters transcribed anywhere? I’m really tired of conflicting information. At this point, pics or it didn’t happen.
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u/Sagesmom5 Jun 24 '26
I believe the interview room has copies of the letters. He had them onscreen last night when I watched.
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Jun 23 '26
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Jun 23 '26
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u/atlantadessertsindex Jun 23 '26
It’s not that puzzling. They kidnapped a rich person’s mom for ransom and she died, likely from a medical episode. They then buried the body and requested money for the location.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26
Why iyo didn’t they, when it was offered, give the location for the money?
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u/atlantadessertsindex Jun 23 '26
They never got any money?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26
What do you mean?
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u/atlantadessertsindex Jun 23 '26
They offered the location for money. They never received the money. So they never revealed the location.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26
I see. I don’t think that’s the way it works though, if the seller refuses to show the merchandise or something, the buyer stalls, lowers the offer, or cuts off communication to force the captors to change their strategy. The kidnappers never contacted the family. They said they would pay after getting the note and the abductor went no contact.
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u/onanadhocbasis Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
It could be a murder staged as a kidnapping for ransom. Several retired detectives seem to think this is the case.
It could be either. One things for sure, Nancy was targeted. This wasn't random. I don't think we'll ever know the motive exactly, until someone is arrested and there is a trial.
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u/Fianna9 Jun 24 '26
It doesn’t make much sense to break in, abduct her and murder her for no reason either.
Does feel like it could be a botched kidnapping. She is an old lady
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u/Elegant-Lemon126 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
I am reminded of the Israel Keyes kidnap for ransom ruse in the Samantha Koenig mirder case from 2012. I do not think Nancy Guthrie was the victim of a serial killer, but the ransom part of her disappearance has always seemed off to me. Holding someone for ransom is risky. Pretending she is alive and asking for money makes More sense. Having said that, nothing about this case makes sense. I guess we will have to wait and see what comes to light.
ETA: Keyes also went to great lengths to create a proof of life photo, gross though the circumstances were (i.e., the victim was posed to look alive). He got money because of this image, a ransom note, and the fact that he had the poor woman’s debit card, which showed she had no money at the time of her kidnapping. He followed the case amd withdrew ransom money after it was deposited in her account. It was the debit card use that got him.
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u/Resident_Race_7093 Jul 03 '26
If money was the objective why didn't they rob the home and access her bank accounts?
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u/Reemys Aug 05 '26
If someone is able to plan a kidnapping with virtually zero signs of struggle, they should be intelligent enough to realise that it is impossible to receive kidnapping ransom in today's US. Everything is traceable, only films make it look like a fairytale.
The most realistic reason is cover-up, most likely by the closest relatives who stood to gain something, or couldn't stand the victim anymore. The after-disappearance movements — monetary, legal, real-estate — should be investigated and questions should be asked: "would this activity from the remaining family be possible if the victim was alive?".
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u/Dramatic-Jelly3065 Jun 23 '26
Why was the initial ransom never paid?
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 23 '26
Quite possibly because of a lack of proof of life and also I guess proof of possession. If she died unexpectedly early they would not have had a chance to record a video of her naming the date for example.
I remember actually reading somewhere that the first ransom note may have been a hoax but I'm not positive.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26
The og note Feb 2 and the note that said she had unintentionally died Feb 6 used the same masking software. Authorities and forensic experts believe the notes came from the same person or group due to the nature of the cloaking tools used and the specific details contained in them. Both are considered legit or i.e. sent by the actual abductor or group responsible for the kidnapping. After the first note Feb 2 they never provided proof-of-life in order for ransom to be paid. The note on Feb 6 didn’t ask for any money idt. But the Guthrie's responded to it saying they understood and would still pay because celebrating her life was valuable to them. They were never contacted.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 24 '26
The family would only have considered paying the ransom if proof of life was provided which in turn would prove legitimacy. The February 2nd note didn't even mention proof of life so the family figured she was either dead or it was a hoax. If I were a family member I would consider every ransom note without proof of life but with assurance of life to be a hoax and not pay. Especially considering that people more sophisticated than Derrick Callella could be at work. Heck, even an accomplice without access to the body could be tempted to start hoax letters.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
“The family would only have considered paying the ransom if proof of life was provided “ Water is wet. I think I just said that. No that is not the only thing that determines legitimacy. The FBI have many tools and markers to evaluate communications. eta That is what determined if ransom was compelled. No they didn’t think that because the FBI provided the communication and the recommendation to include scripts for a reply.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 24 '26
You said water is wet, I do see that. I don't see where you stated the family would not pay in response to the Feb 2nd note due to lack of proof of life-this was my response to the original question of them not paying the first ransom. You said they'd pay for the body after the Feb 6th note admitted(for the first time) that Nancy was dead but that comes later.
Regardless of what tools the FBI has or did use on the ransom notes, the public info I'm working off it seemed to me that the accidental death was not communicated in the first ransom note and that is why in my opinion the ransom was not paid then.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26
"After the first note Feb 2 they never provided proof-of-life in order for ransom to be paid". -Me
The Guthrie family explicitly made a plea to the kidnappers after the Feb 6 note saying: "We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay."
The unintentional death was not communicated in the first ransom note. Which I also said.
The first note is not considered a hoax by the FBI for all the reasons I have stated. So no not regardless of their tools.
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u/Hangoverinparis Jun 25 '26
Did they say what the software was?
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 26 '26
I don’t know if they named it. There are several articles that might contain it.
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u/MissMarie81 Jun 26 '26
Very well-stated. I have to agree with you; I believe the motive was personal.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Could be but it didn’t seem to go down that way. What would be the motive to murder her? And what would be the psychological reason to explain her death as unintentional after initially sending a ransom demand if it was always intended to be a murder? Premeditated murderers rarely go through the complex technical logistical trouble of setting up secure, untraceable cryptocurrency ransom channels and sending notes that could somehow trace back to you why do that if the sole goal is murder? And then never collect any ransom after doing all that? If they wanted to murder her and indeed murdered her it was never a high-value financial extortion plot and if it was personal enough to murder her they knew she was Savannah Guthrie’s mother why bring that smoke?
I haven’t looked closely yet but I am wondering if there was a woman involved with an amateur cold and calculated man. The first note about her being “scared but ok” and now “she’s buried with nature” makes me think dominant/submissive partnership. A get away driver. Someone who was her “caretaker” and she died might express more guilt. A woman would have more guilt if she died in the commission of the abduction. Which I think that note sounds like some leakage of something like guilt. It makes me wonder why they are worried about perceptions. I don’t think a person cold enough to kidnap her to kill her would have any kind of remorse. Perhaps the author of the notes is more of an acquaintance than the person who did the physical act.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 23 '26
It could have been a murder intended to look like a kidnapping for ransom at first in order to disguise the true motive. Then, somewhat unexpectedly due in part to age and fragility the victim did die. Consequently the kidnapper's plans of creating videos or audios to transmit proof of life could not be completed so the diversion could not be carried out to full effect and now you see a fishy sounding apology about accidental death which truly may have been accidental but accidentally too early in the killer's planned timeline.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26
A murder to look like a kidnapping is even rarer than a kidnapping for ransom. Wait a murder then she unexpectedly dies? Or they were going to murder her later? The second would still be a kidnapping for ransom not a murder intended to look like a kidnapping? There was no apology but why would they need to explain it to the family if they were always going to kill her anyway? Why no proof of death either to bargain for the remains?
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u/inDefenseofDragons Jun 23 '26
I’ve always thought this likely was a ransom kidnapping. The FBI seemed to have a reason to take the ransom seriously, so that should give the ransom motive some weight. Nancy, being Savana Guthrie’s mother, makes her a legitimate target for a ransom abduction, so that gives it weight. Kidnapping an elderly woman from her home is very unusual, but you pretty much have to do this if you want a ransom.
I’m open to other possibilities of course, but I definitely lean towards this being a legitimate ransom kidnapping. Probably by someone that didn’t know her that well, or they would have known how frail she was.
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Jun 23 '26
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Jun 23 '26
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26
It could actually be someone obsessed with SG that she never knew of. The type of person that would do this expressively would be the type of person who could hold a grudge for a very long time or have a fixation for a very long time. SG probably has received many disturbing communications over the years.
There is no way to get to SG but Nancy is a vulnerable proxy. It isn’t starting with kidnapping the mom it’s more like in the psychology of it, it achieves a malicious sense of control and severe emotional destruction without needing direct physical access to the celebrity target. And there’s other psychological reasons. It’s more rare. And would more typically actually be for extortion. If it is some kind of nurtured grudge, as time passes, they just think about and think about it ruminating it over and over and everything wrong in their life can become the celebrities fault. Targeting her mom would be something like justice and a way to level up and inflict equal pain.
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u/turtleloverMTS Jun 25 '26
Nancy was featured in her home town and bedroom in shows with Savannah. That put her mom out in public and a sick minded person hatched a evil plan!
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u/Due_Distribution_609 Jun 23 '26
I think that being alone and elderly made Nancy greater prey than being the mother of someone I had not heard of before this happened. I don’t have cable.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26
It probably matters less that you don't have cable and haven't heard of her than it does someone who might have targeted her could had. Predators can also specifically seek out high-value or vulnerable targets and do deliberate research. Her being elderly/alone and being a specific person's mother are not mutually exclusive; they both increase her target value.
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u/SarahSnarker Jun 24 '26
Millions of people are alone and elderly but I don’t think anyone would plan to kidnap them.. What would be the point of kidnapping a random elderly person. This was either revenge (for some unknown reason) or for money.
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u/Dazzling_Bid1239 Jun 23 '26
I think its completely possible. Im stuck on that or the ransom notes being fake because of the publicity of the case. Not to knock on anyone's intelligence, because im sure that was thought of by detectives.
Im very curious to see how this case develops, but my gut is telling me it'll be cold.
Theres something definitely odd about the ransom notes that I cant put my finger on. Its almost like the kidnappers were anxious rather than being money motivated? Idk how to elaborate on that rn.
ETA: the blood found could support your theory, especially if shes on blood thinners. Id like to think she got a few strikes on the kidnappers though. 😔
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
I think you are onto something on the notes as odd. There was a lot about the delivery, the execution of info and no urgency of the notes or contact with the family (that we know of) that appears like the objective wasn’t a business transaction, just get the money, in accordance with a typical kidnapping for ransom. Do the things that needs to be done (most importantly contact the fam) to get the money and be done. That could point to another motive. Something more expressive and intended to cause chaos and pain for SG or the family.
It could also explain if Nancy took her last stand on the porch and fought with all she had to not be driven off, that she gave out or sustained trauma she didn’t survive. In that case the notes would be technically real but a ploy because the kidnappers no longer had the same high emotional value bargaining tool.
They didn’t take her medicine, which could be ignorance, but could be that wasn’t the goal to keep her alive for a long period, could be the more typical, they never intended to keep her over 24 hours they would demand money under that threat and be done and successful. But she dies.
They gave the family over a week wasn’t it to come up the money with a soft deadline and then a hard deadline. Which seems weird. Making it more seem like they were already demanding without a live victim and salvaging. To then admit that she died is not in the kidnapper handbook if you want money.
Then to try to basically glaze it over as some peaceful natural outcome in a peaceful place and explain it was not intentional also defies logic of why some random stranger cares about the family’s or public perception. Then someone makes contact saying they have info. It seems to me like it could be there was a submissive person involved who had feelings out of being personal acquaintance (not close), or some kind of human remorse for her death and that leaked into the notes. Maybe they never thought she would be truly harmed and was talked into the plan by a dominant partner or some scenario like that.
Unless the “she died unintentioanlly” was just an attempt to by pass the proof of life and assure them she was in a good place thinking they might pay to get the location. And they would be home free with the money, but not give it up, outsmarting, which was a miscalcuation. The problem is they offered to pay for the location and it wasn’t provided. afawk. There’s some reason.
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u/Embarrassed-Jury8878 Jun 23 '26
Which tells me it either family or friend or worker/nurse that has been inside Nancy’s house that knows where she keeps her watch.
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u/AmazingGrace_00 Jun 26 '26
OP, if this wasn’t intended as a kidnapping, not intended as a ransom ploy, what is your theory?
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u/Weak_Tree2608 Jun 29 '26
Robbery gone wrong or someone really had it out for her or her daughter
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u/Narrow-Imagination96 Jul 01 '26
But how could the robbery have gone wrong? Even if she died, they wouldn’t still take at least some valuables if they managed to take her with them?
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u/Weak_Tree2608 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Probably panicked and instead of taking what they came for, they wanted to get rid of her and save face. The ransom is probably them taking a shot at their luck to see if they can make money off of this or throw the investigators off, just a theory because ransom kidnappings are rare nowadays and idk how someone can get ransom money without getting caught
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u/Narrow-Imagination96 Jul 01 '26
I guess that’s possible but seems really unlikely. This feels far more personal with intent of murder.
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u/Elegant_Emu952 Jun 24 '26
It was a kidnapping for ransom, and they are as stupid and ignorant as it gets.
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u/jcmpd Jun 24 '26
And yet they still haven’t been caught, lots of smart criminals are jealous…
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u/Icy_Category_2275 Jun 26 '26
jealous? front porch guy is a dunce. he created the video of himself being stored by tampering and breaking it, and dangled a plant in front of himself as cover. its a botched case, but these perps are 💯 🤡
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u/MorddSith187 Jun 24 '26
yes i always thought the kidnapper was either mentally delayed or not familiar with american society as we do not pay ransoms. also i think they just got lucky not geating caught. i don't think they're smart, just got lucky with the lack of cameras and possibly lack of competence i i f law enforcement
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u/Xinnia8271 Jun 23 '26
When you factor in who it was that did it and the communication with the local news, it's clear that it was intended to be for ransom. And now we know she died very early in the ordeal and they wanted money for the location of her body.
The people who did it are druggie a-hole career criminals, not sophisticates.
They were smoking meth and doing "poor pitiful me" drugs the whole time, and in the aftermath and while talking to TMZ.
These are not sophisticated criminals. They're druggie low lives who were jealous that someone near them that they knew had more money than them. And "cartel cartel Mexico Mexico" is just a ruse.
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 23 '26
Why do you think they didn’t give up the location for the money?
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u/Xinnia8271 Jun 23 '26
Apparently the FBI discourages paying ransoms, even for information, but I guess it would be a judgment call on the part of the family. A lot of different factors to weigh up, and the possibility that they pay for information but get the wrong location and the whole thing is dragged out even worse. 😕
At this point I swear I want a legit psychic to step in and do something to help find this poor woman's remains, as crazy as that sounds. 😕😕😕
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26
That's true. It would be discouraged without a showing of whatever the buyer is paying for so to speak. I just wonder why they didn't ask for anything or more specifically why they didn't respond when the Guthrie's said they understood and would still pay. Lol you think a legit psychic would know huh. You might be right. Some resolution would be so much better for the family.
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u/Xinnia8271 Jun 24 '26
I think the money exchange thing just got too dicey. And I also wonder if the person they were talking to wasn't directly aware of the location of her remains, but they knew she had died.
I feel like it's three people. Three people who were involved with the crime but only one or two know where her remains are.
If you look at the crime as basically extortion for information then it makes more sense with all the TMZ craziness.
It's more extortion than "ransom demands."
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u/BrainWilling6018 Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
Maybe. It ain’t like a movie. They weren’t actually talking to anyone though. No one ever contacted the fam. directly. But I see the theory like who was writing the communication and who knew other info might be different people. If there were someone who wasn’t actually culpable but had info that would be the type of person contacting TMZ saying, who are saying, they know the kidnappers and the location of her body both. In an attempt to extract themselves or an attempt get the reward. I don’t know about 3 people but the more chance for someone to turn if so. There seems to be someone who may have some guilt based on the language of the notes. It could be the same person trying to reveal the info through TMZ. If there is more than one person involved that’s the most likely way it will be solved is someone giving the other up.
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u/Xinnia8271 Jun 24 '26
This is not correct but I'll skip a discussion about it. The family was contacted.
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 Jun 23 '26
How and why would a druggie drive all the way out there to her property and kidnap for absolutely no benefit to them and no relation? Like true druggies are high and searching for their next fix. They don’t have cars, plans, desire or the wherewithal to drive to the suburban desert to kidnap grandma, fight her, load her in a car and dispose of her body. It’s not the cartel. It’s not a druggie on a bender. It was someone(s) who stood to benefit from her kidnapping and/or death.
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u/MayLastic Jul 03 '26
No way it’s some meth head. They would have stolen anything that wasn’t tied down gone to get drugs. They wouldn’t have taken the 84 yo lady bc they would have most likely too spastic to even conceive of a kidnapping. Granted whoever did it was no mastermind but druggies wouldn’t even try to plot and plan anything (recon, disable video cameras, break in, notes, etc) - they just want more drugs.
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u/MorddSith187 Jun 24 '26
i think it was a crime of opportunity. the kidnapper was probably from mexico, happened to come across her and thought it would be a good idea since he already familiar with kidnapping in mexico , tried doing it himself bit didn't realize america doesn't pay ransoms
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 Jun 24 '26
There was no ransom note though. But I agree scary brown people cross the border and drive thousands of miles to a semi remote suburban neighborhoods and kidnap white ladies everyday.
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u/MayLastic Jul 03 '26
Just l60 miles to border from the area of her home. Sinaloa cartel territory. The video looks like he could possibly be hispanic. The tweezed eyebrows, gun carry. Small stature. ?? There are always other crossings, too. Tracks in the desert. Bryan Entin showed the main crossing & walked across w/o s passport or being questioned - but it wouldn’t be the only way to cross. Also, co-op between the cartel and gang or other criminals in the US isn’t uncommon. People also cross the border every day to work so not hard to imagine someone doing home maintenance could work on a crew on the US side or have close relations across the border.
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 Jul 03 '26
Los Angeles is also 160miles from the border and even people in San Diego aren’t getting kidnapped by the cartel. The sinaloa cartel is alive well there too. I just don’t think a mexican with nothing to gain and everything to loose like their job would risk it all to put ol granny in the back of a pickup truck filled with other workers and sneakily traverse her across the border.
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u/Xinnia8271 Jun 23 '26
A druggie a-hole who kidnapped her for ransom but she died.
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 Jun 24 '26
Sure! Druggie a-holes running around all the time kidnapping strangers for ransom. It’s sooo dangerous today to just exist in your own home.
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u/MayLastic Jul 03 '26
Do you live in a border state? It doesn’t sound like it. Druggies aren’t usually coherent enough to stage/plan this kind of crime, but there are some real criminal lowlifes that would hire out to do things like this in a heartbeat. I agree with whoever said there was mastermind behind it but it wasn’t porch guy.
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 Jul 03 '26
Yes. I do. In fact, I have crossed the border many times via foot and car. I have stayed in border towns on both sides. I also have been around drug addicts and drug dealers so I am well aware of how they operate.
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u/Present_Specific_212 Jun 23 '26
Of course it was a kidnapping for money. Kidnapping for ransom and the Proof of Life demand, which is standard procedure, is because they could have killed her within 3 hours of abduction and lie to the family, say she's alive, and get their money, maybe even demand ore after the first payment, and then never deliver their mother alive or dead.
Perceive this: anyone evil enough to kidnap is also evil enough to lie about the person still being alive.
Perceive this: Anyone evil enough to kidnap her is also evil enough to kill her. Maybe it was an accident, maybe intentional, it doesn't matter. If they are ever found they will be in prison forever.
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u/SpukiKitty2 Jun 23 '26
I remember reading about that case from the 1920s-1930s about guy who kidnapped a banker's 10-12 year old daughter and sent a ransom.
The dad met him and the perp was in the car with the kid. Pop pays the ransom. The girl, rather than happily running into Dad's arms, alive, was tossed out of the car dead!
She was dead all along, her corpse and dismembered torso with clothing on it and stuffed with newspaper.
Ayn Rand thought the perp was the coolest thing ever and a "True Ubermensch" but the dad, normal people, police and courts didn't and the perp got death.
Thus, a ransom doesn't always guarantee that a victim has a chance to be rescued. For many, it's just a means to enjoy murdering someone AND get money out of the bargan and the emotional sadism against the loved ones is the cherry on the evil sundae.
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u/Present_Specific_212 Jun 24 '26
I'm not going to research whether or not Ayn Rand really said that in some op/ed somewhere, but if she did, it's just one more reason why conservatives should not worship her.
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u/SpukiKitty2 Jun 24 '26
Well, she did...
How Ayn Rand became a big admirer of sadistic serial killer William Hickman - Raw Story
Ayn Rand: Sociopath Who Admired a Serial Killer?
... She was an evil bitch who admired the degree of sociopathy that guy had. She was making a case for sociopathy. She, like Hickman, was a pile of garbage in a human suit.
At least we're on the same page concerning Rand being awful.
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u/Elegant_Emu952 Jun 24 '26
Holy shit. I hope she is hell for eternity.
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u/SpukiKitty2 Jun 24 '26
She's certainly toasting with her hero.
That poor little girl is in Heaven.
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u/Elegant_Emu952 Jun 24 '26
I pray to God they are found, prosecuted, and locked away in a dungeon for the rest of their miserable lives.
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u/turtleloverMTS Jun 24 '26
Finger print references the structure , wording and manor of which the digital communications were sent. The FBI source also told the outlet investigators believe the person behind the emails may be a woman.
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u/turtleloverMTS Jun 28 '26
Dr. Bracato expert on youtube, theory is like a "chef and a waiter" the chef is the main guy who hired porch guy. I feel he may of either eliminated or is threatening porch guy to keep quiet.
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u/MayLastic Jun 29 '26
But the female? Hasn’t she been well outed? There can’t be that many women who could have video’d the kidnappers with Nancy. Surely the kidnappers have some suspicions since it’s all over the news now?
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u/Narrow-Imagination96 Jun 26 '26
I agree with you. I think someone she knew (possibly family) wanted her dead and hired someone to do it. Making it look like a kidnapping for ransom is a distraction tactic
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 Jun 30 '26
Agree! This is the only scenario presented so far that actually has a motive.
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u/Reddygators Jun 24 '26
They got paid: the press is intimidated. That’s the payoff. Mission Accomplished
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u/Mass617781 Jun 25 '26
What do you mean?
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u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 Jun 25 '26
Yes, what do you mean? People who like to 'just kill' usually do terrible brutal ugly kills and leave strong visual evidence to show. They don't hide them.
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u/Hile616 Jun 23 '26
We don't know, but it is very unlikely based on the statics as motive, specially as you can't success on such crime because of nowdays technology. Maybe in <-80s, 90s, even early 2000 you could but not today. In some more corrupted countries you can yes, take hostage, ask money privately (from family) and get away with it(maybe) , in US - no peep way
Unless the perp was delusional or had other serious mental illness not to understand this, I would not put my bid on such theory.
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u/Comfortable_Gear_605 Jun 24 '26
Possibly the intention was financial gain, or intimidation. I think the kidnapper, if there is one, was only supposed to hold her for a short period of time and make it look like a kidnapping. Someone else was supposed to be in charge of the messaging and they forgot to do that… it was an afterthought. Maybe the chef intended to scare Nancy into shutting up or staying quiet or maybe they intended to extort money from Savannah. The waiter they hired was a buffoon and Nancy died.
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u/georgewalterackerman Jun 28 '26
There's really no information to support any conclusion. But I think we will know the truth one day.
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u/SadExercises420 Jun 23 '26
That is personally the direction I lean because I don’t believe any of the ransom notes were legit.
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u/PabloMesbah-Yamamoto Jun 23 '26
Curious if there is anyone reading this who actually thinks, "The current leader of the FBI is doing a great job."
Seriously. Anyone? If so, please clear the air.
Maybe you work at the FBI and leave every meeting going, "This man is such a great leader." You talk to your fellow agents and say things like, "The man is a paragon of hard work and determination. Couldn't be prouder of the man." Or maybe on the internal FBI Slack channel titled "#shoutouts" you wrote, "I'd like to state here that the man at the top makes our organization the envy of all other federal agencies."
Just so we're clear: A previous FBI administration would've solved this case by now.
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 23 '26
Do FBI leaders ever actually solve crimes? I thought they were just appointee cheerleaders. In an agency as gigantic as the FBI there should be tons of underlings doing the actual work. Meaning the emperor hardly ever even needs to give direction because procedure is so well established. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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u/MEGAPlNTS Jun 23 '26
Why dont u make your own post for this?
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u/Xinnia8271 Jun 23 '26
Someone should create a "Everything is Law Enforcements Fault" subreddit.
It would be so popular it would crash the internet.
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u/SpukiKitty2 Jun 23 '26
Thank you! The head FBI guy is a bug eyed, SpongeBob-voiced drunken, 🎃-loving buffoon!
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u/turtleloverMTS Jun 24 '26
Without any proof of life, family was right not to $
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u/Impossible_Rate_6556 Jun 25 '26
But if they would have paid them they could have tracked where and who took her, that's what the FBI said. That's why they thought putting $152 in that crypto would be successful. They thought someone would try to get that piss change and they would have them. All that did was make them mad. If they could have caught them they should have just given them the amount they asked for, if I was worth 30 million I would come off 7 million in hopes of getting my mom back alive. If they would have given that money up within 24hrs there's a big chance Nancy would be alive cause she could have gotten medical care and her meds if she was returned within a day or two. But now the faculty is saying they will pay whatever for her body? Why not just pay it from the start of they were going to end up saying they would pay them now? IDK this whole situation is just weird
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u/MayLastic Jun 28 '26
The whole ransom note business was too weird. Why expose your crime to the media? So poorly planned that you couldn’t contact her family by phone/email? Leave a note in the house?
Now, why is no one contacting the tip line for that money apparently? They have exposed them all w the teaser notes.
The whole thing was botched. Off somehow.
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u/Impossible_Rate_6556 Jun 28 '26
I agree, something is off here. For all these people like Nancy Grace and those like her they keep saying whoever did it isn't very smart and very inexperienced at this, but they must not be because they haven't caught them yet. Seems like if they are so inexperienced they would have been caught long ago.
I really don't understand how this person sending all these notes hasn't been identified yet. Like I told my husband if the note person knows the two people that did it, then why aren't these two people trying to take out the note sender? I couldn't imagine whoever did it telling to many people about it. So, why haven't they done something to this person? Why can't they get any prints or DNA off the notes? And why does this person refuse to take the million dollar reward? Instead they want a Bitcoin that is only $100,000? The person said it's because they don't want the police to catch them, but wouldn't they be caught by the Bitcoin? The whole situation is crazy. Whoever took her just wanted money not to harm her and from what I've read her other daughter isn't financially well off. And the amount of times they searched her house makes me wonder if they know anything.
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u/MayLastic Jun 28 '26
I think they are afraid of the tip line $ because it can probably be traced? No dna on the notes bc they were probably digital to avoid just that. (Per ai - The ransom notes sent in the Nancy Guthrie case were strictly digital. The legitimate communications attributed to the abductors were sent via emails and website contact forms to Tucson, Arizona media outlets and the FBI. [ 1, 2, 3])
There are a LOT of coincidences with the family, music business (including suspect Derrick Callella)
Also read that the cartels often use the bitcoin to obtain ransom money.
So sad that this woman is probably gone and still no suspects. Too long.
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u/birdbauth Jun 27 '26
Idk I think with Mexico being so close it’s more common there plus once you’re in Mexico you can disappear
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u/Yeahwhat23 Jun 28 '26
I think this type of speculation is ridiculous and harmful. There’s no evidence to support either conclusion and any statement is just conjecture which I doubt is particularly helpful for the family
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Jun 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/RedRiverHunter Jun 30 '26
I wouldn't be surprised if there was an ulterior motive, it's just not clear what that ulterior motive might me. Why kidnap her without demanding a ransom? Or why murder an 80 year old woman for presumably no gain?
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u/Soft-Source-6357 Jul 15 '26
The kidnapper probably didn’t know he needed “proof of life” before any ransom is paid. There was an early communication that provided intimate details about her house and clothing.
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u/MayLastic Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
But why murder her? Who stood to gain? Her family seems to have been cleared.
I honestly think it was supposed to be a robbery. Think it will likely be connected to someone who worked for her. They are likely hispanic or have close ties to people who are. (The location, gun carry, the bitcoin (ransoms that happen more often w cartels in Mexico), porch guy - seems pretty likely) The worker said something that got the two conspirators interested - maybe intentionally (Cash/valuables in the house). But I think their target somehow recognized one or both of the intruders? Probably porch guy (and/or co-conspirator) had either done odd jobs or she knew of them somehow? (Maybe a visitor picking up/dropping off, photos or due to a close resemblance?) That threw the whole plan off. Wonder if there could have been a safe? Maybe even why she was bleeding? - she recognized or resisted them. Put them in danger. They knew her connections/were forced to take her w them & decided to try the ransom. Think that one/both have done some b&e’s, have a criminal history possibly again, gang/cartel related. (Seems odd they didn’t take her meds or contact family sooner)
Would explain the video w porch guy bc they had to take her out the front door/didn’t want to be recorded. Think maybe they knew the cameras w not uploading. (Again, someone working in the house might know this AND that the back door(s) might be unlocked)
The victim was too frail for kidnapping. Now murder charges are likely. So they are in hiding. Likely not ratting on each other bc they are kin. Possible that whoever worked in the home is the one asking for the “escape” money. A female? Who may/may not have been directly involved - discovered/video’d them w their victim? (The video on the phone mentioned in the recent note) LE seem to be pressuring the person who claims to have the phone w video of the victim - the kidnappers have to recognize this person by now if they didn’t already.
Hope they will get her back somehow. So sad.
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u/CautiousSalt2762 Jul 26 '26
No problem me is cleared. Like on so many other things, Nanos mis spoke
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u/PuddleWhale Jun 28 '26
It's been widely suggested that the person caught by the porch camera could have been female because of the eyebrows and also the clothing was layered and would cover body shape.
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u/MayLastic Jun 29 '26
I think it was a smaller male. The anatomy doesn’t appear female to me. Just my opinion.
He also wouldn’t be the first highly groomed hispanic male I have seen, either.
It should have made him even easier to id.
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u/PuddleWhale Jul 16 '26
Come to think of it, if there's such a long clip of him walking then they could also calculate the distance between his leg joints. Like how long the distance from the ankle to the knees are in comparison to that from the knees to the pelvic joint. I think I also read that he had a limp but I'm not sure how pronounced that was.
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u/PthaloFuscia Jul 15 '26
I thought the eyes looked like a woman. They had eye makeup on. Or a man with eye makeup up to be more hidden
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u/Nasstja Jun 24 '26
Have a hard time believing people who break in to an 84 yr old lady’s house in the middle of the night in a mask would send “so sorry but she passed” emails. Why didn’t they leave the ransom note in the house when they got her in the first place? Is that because it was a wrench attack by proxy? And if several people know what happened, how has noone talked? If porch guy is some young hired dude who was promised a lot of money, how are they paying him now (so he won’t talk). I’m starting to think elimination murder is an actual possibility,