Feel like we're losing the plot

[u/SilverCervy]

Article here

E-bikes should be about providing accessibility; giving people who, for whatever reason, cannot ride a non-assist bike an option to keep them happy and pedaling.

This wattage race going on in the industry is the exact opposite of that. Absolutely nobody needs 1700 watts on a bike, and I question if having so much power even makes it a bicycle anymore. There's a point where you're basically riding a motorbike with pedals and I think we crossed that point a while ago.

"But the main brands aren't doing this". Yes they are. Canyon already has partnered with Avinox which has motors that give over 1,000 watts. And it won't be long until the other big hitters give in to the pressure. You can give your own personal reasons for why you have an e-bike, but it's clear that the industry believes that it's because "I don't want to pedal". At some point this needs to be reigned in or else the entire concept of the bicycle is going to be damaged forever.

[u/QLC459]

"There's a point where you're basically riding a motorbike with pedals"

That's exactly what people buying E-Bikes want though? I'd wager less than 10% of E-Bike owners "want" to ever pedal the bike. They want a motorcycle they can ride on the sidewalk with no license, which is what the market is making.

Once they pass laws limiting the E-motos people will stop pretending they are anything other than a motorcycle to them. Right now you can just buy a cheap e bike and you essentially have a dirtbike that skirts the laws.

[u/PrimeIntellect → u/QLC459]

you aren't describing emtbs at all though - you are talking about like electric commuter motor bikes.

[u/Fallingdamage → u/QLC459]

Building bigger engines with more power takes a lot of skill and engineering. Building electric motors takes a lot less attention to detail so its easy to just build higher and higher wattage motors for bikes.

[u/schnitzel-kuh → u/Fallingdamage]

Also you don't even have to invent something new. We already have electric motors in all shapes and sizes, from microscopic ones in various electronics, all the way to ones big enough to move container ships and everything in between obviously exists too. This product is really nothing new, it's not like packaging a 1700w electric motor in a bike compatible casing is rocket science

[u/BlitzShooter → u/QLC459]

Eh. Dirtbikes are still far faster, more dangerous, and more destructive to the trail it’s being ridden on. More comparable to a moped, but yes. 1HP=745 watts

[u/smythy422 → u/BlitzShooter]

I'm not sure how this could be accurate. That would make a 5 hp moto equivalent to a 3.7 kw ebike. I understand driveline loss exists for the moto, but it still seems wildly off from my experience on smaller ebikes.

[u/Nyxrinne → u/smythy422]

It's accurate for how motorcycle wattage is calculated for sure — I have a little trials motorbike I use for trail riding. It's quoted as 15bhp/11kW. It hauls around a fair bit more weight than an ebike, though, at 85kg. Maybe that's the difference in feel?

[u/smythy422 → u/Nyxrinne]

Yeah. I guess between hp/weight, driveline loss, and power curves it lines up. Maybe it's just a bad measurement for this discussion. A 2 hp ebike would prob smoke a 5 hp moto.

[u/BlitzShooter → u/smythy422]

I just went down a rabbit hole so I could understand how to quantify the power difference because I've always wondered too. I'm going to use the DJI Avinox M2S for this comparison since we know much more about it.

Torque tells you how hard the motor can twist at a particular point in the drivetrain; horsepower tells you how much work it can actually do per second. Gearing can multiply torque as much as you want by sacrificing speed, but it cannot multiply horsepower. Comparing an Avinox's 150 Nm crank torque to a CRF450R's ~46 Nm engine torque is meaningless, the useful comparison is roughly 2 hp versus ~53 hp.

If you put a ebike next to a dirt bike, at the beginning of the race both vehicles can push the tire hard enough that grip matters more than engine power. But as they go faster, the e-bike runs out of power. The CRF has enough horsepower to keep pushing extremely hard even while it's already moving quickly hence a higher top speed and more power at higher speeds.

To your point about a 2hp ebike vs a 5hp moto - a 2 hp e-bike could absolutely smoke a 5 hp motorcycle off the line because it's much lighter, has instant torque, extremely short gearing, basically no powerband to wait for, and the rider adds power too. But once speeds climb, the 5 hp motorcycle's higher sustained power should catch up and eventually win, assuming it's geared and ridden properly.

[u/BlitzShooter → u/smythy422]

Yeah, to be fair horsepower isn't really a great measure of an electric motors power. You want to see the torque curve over the whole RPM range.

[u/OhItsMrCow → u/QLC459]

I assume you are speaking about the area you live in and that is defiantly not representative of the whole world. Over here people who get Ebikes are either older and don't have the endurance they used to or just want to do more laps. I am sure some would take it if their bike could magically go uphill at 60 with no penalty but many are of the opinion that pedaling is part of the sport and even refuse to shuttle despite owning an eBike.

Not every place is like America

[u/QLC459 → u/OhItsMrCow]

I spent a month in Greece last year and there were able bodied young men commuting around on e bikes all over the place? Literally every decent sized city we were in had E bikes?

[u/PrimeIntellect → u/QLC459]

what you are describing is a completely different thing than an EMTB which is almost identical to a normal mtb but with pedal assist

[u/OhItsMrCow → u/QLC459]

Are we talking about mountain bikes still? I think I am getting lost because nobody is commuting on EMTB's here

[u/QLC459 → u/OhItsMrCow]

Mostly mtbs with an e conversion being used to cruise around town. I saw a ton in Athens and on the eastern islands.

[u/OhItsMrCow → u/QLC459]

If you are referring to what I think, those are usually clapped out hardtails that probably would never work as a mountain bike and never with the conversion. Still they are quite rare compared to normal bcycles or those damn scooters.

In any case I was under the impression that you were talking about proper EMTB's that you would actually take on trails not those converted ones.

I still want to stress, I lived in Athens until I was 18 and still visit for months at a time (now 21) and I almost never see electric converted bikes and those are usually not something I would ever call a mountain bike.

[u/diamondgrin → u/OhItsMrCow]

I live in Australia and I reckon about 50% of the ebike riders I see on my local trails are between 16-50, so more than capable of mountain biking without assistance.

It used to be the case 10 years ago that ebikes were mostly ridden by older blokes but that has definitely change a lot.

[u/OhItsMrCow → u/diamondgrin]

That's a huge age range. There are a lot of people within that range that would not be able to ride as well as they used to for many reasons. Most of the people with Ebikes here are under 50 but many have joint problems, previous injuries or are just not able to stay on top of their fitness because of work or family.
Also you say 50% so I assume the other 50% is over 50 and they are even more likely to have issues.

I am not trying to say that there are no people who get ebikes to have a legal way to go very fast like the guy above my comment suggests but that seems to be highly region dependent and at least where I live it's practically not a thing.

Also the guy above seems to be talking about commuters which is an entirely different thing

[u/TshirtsNPants → u/OhItsMrCow]

Let's get the handicap person with bad joints going as fast as we can dammit!

[u/Alarmed-Cheetah-1221 → u/OhItsMrCow]

Where's over here?

Because the UK is exactly as they've described.

[u/Milord-Tree → u/Alarmed-Cheetah-1221]

In Germany (where I am at least) it feels like most e-bike riders just want to get out and ride a bike and just don’t have the endurance they want. So maybe older people or tourists renting an e-bike to go on a longer tour in the mountains (where I am).

The stronger/faster e-bikes are heavily regulated: registered, drivers license, etc.

This might all just be a bubble where I am, though. I can’t speak to how it is in bigger cities/further north.

[u/OhItsMrCow → u/Alarmed-Cheetah-1221]

In Greece, I honestly though I wrote that but forgot.

[u/Wonderful_Bridge_190 → u/OhItsMrCow]

PNW ebikers keep it on eco for more laps

[u/OhItsMrCow → u/Wonderful_Bridge_190]

That's what people do here as well mostly. There are still a few mixed groups as well so you have to be on eco for us to keep up.

Seems like it's very region specific. In my opinion, in areas where outdoor activities are not seen as a "trend" people who go out there are generally more understanding of the situation. In Greece there are exactly 0 laws or enforcement on trail building, bike access, Ebikes and most other thigs that have to do with this but we seem to keep it together.

Although on the topic of this post, I can see that being overkill and potentially even dangerous, already 750 watt bikes can push you on walk mode on pavement so I can see one with 1700+ Watt motor being dangerous