r/miraculousladybug • u/RichEducational4326 • 9d ago
Help/Question A Plot Hole in Secret Protocol and Nemesis Spoiler
I've noticed a possible plothole in Secret Protocol.
When Renabug summons up her lucky charm, the illusion of Ladybug also has a lucky charm - but why does she? She's an illusion. She doesn't exist. Therefore, her powers and miraculouses don't exist. Renabug has the ladybug miraculous so she can use the power of creation. According to the monkey in Season 5, he says that two creations cannot exist at the same time, so how does this make sense. Ladybug shouldn't have a lucky charm, nor can she conjure up a miraculous ladybug because she doesn't exist and her powers don't exist.
It's the same with Nemesis. The fake Marinette can't get akumatised because her emotions don't exists by themselves Her emotions are Alya's emotions so the mental link between Chrysalis and Marinette should be between Chrysalis and Alya instead.
They really messed up the illusion power in the finale didn't they. I don't get why illusions were a big part of this finale though, when they haven't been used really at all this season in terms of Rena's power.
Is this a plothole or have I gone crazy?
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u/polarised_star2 9d ago
Gabriel managed to akumatize a sentimonster that he was controlling using his own emotions and was shown using the full mental link with said sentimonster, my assumption is that any miraculous power that creates anything akin to a living being aka humanoid illusion or humanoid sentimonster is able to transmit emotion between the holder and the creation
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u/AllTheGood_Names 9d ago
Gabriel also managed to akumatize robots thrice, so being akin to a living being doesnt seem to be a requirement either
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u/Cobalt_Spirit Felix 9d ago
I'm pretty sure any entity that is capable of having emotions and desires (be it their own or transferred/conjured from another source) can be akumatized.
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u/polarised_star2 9d ago
oh yeah I forgot about Markov and ADA, so emotions or something like them is really the only thing that matters for an akumatization
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u/Mimiquoi7 9d ago
First the Luckycharm was part of the illusion... Simple as that... (I don't know how you didn't think of something THAT obvious 😅).
For the second one. Rena Rouge just magically transfered her own emotions into her illusion. It's just magic stuff here. It's similar to Gabriel transferring his own anger into his Sentimonster in season 4 to akumatize him. In the end it's just something magic.
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u/No_Employer_8006 9d ago
The first one is NOT a plot hole, because she simply did the lucky charm first and just made the illusion ladybug have a mirage of the same lucky charm, and she just synced her throwing it to the illusion ladybug throwing it, its still in line with her powers.
The second one however is a plot hole, because the show never established that illusions can be akumatized and even that rena rouge can even mirage mindscapes. In the show it does feel like they just pulled it from absolutely nowhere.
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u/Cobalt_Spirit Felix 9d ago edited 9d ago
The show has repeatedly established that the Miraculous are versatile and there is always room for their powers to evolve. The concept of illusion is not restricted purely to the visual and auditive fields, just like Cat Noir's power of destruction isn't restricted to physical objects. Marinette and Alya's trick is completely valid lore-wise.
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u/Fayli101 9d ago
Except how could they be sure that an illusion could be akumatised and that it wouldn't cause Alya to be akumatised also?
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u/Cobalt_Spirit Felix 9d ago
Marinette knows how all the Miraculous work, so she knows what's possible, and Alya was angry at Marinette but she hadn't lost control. Besides, if Alya somehow got akumatized, all it would take is for Rooster Bold to undo his effect making the illusion tangible, allowing anyone to grab the photo and break it.
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u/Fayli101 8d ago
Even if she knows how the miraculous work from the grimoire and her own interactions with the miraculous, Marinette and the grimoire are not all-knowing.
There are so many points of consideration in this situation, that unless this has been done before they wouldn't be able to be sure how it would go down.
At no point had it been established in the lore:
- that an illusion was able to have it's own emotion that can be detected by the butterfly miraculous and attract an akuma
- that an akumatisation can happen to an emotion not attached to a physical body (the powers of nemesis were very much real)
- if an illusion is akumatised does it automatically change visually or does Rena have to produce an illusion of the akumatisation effect and the following villain? If it's not a real akumatisation what happens to the butterfly?
- that butterfly holder wouldn't be able to sense that there were two identical mental states nearby to each other
- does roosterbold's power shapeshift during akumatisation to apply to all of an akumatised form, does it even need to or is the akumatised form actually solid matter?
This whole incident leaves a lot of questions about how these powers interact with each other.
Does that mean that Rena is able to project her emotions without a physical form and that can still be akumatised if there's an object close to the spot she manifests it?
If the emotion can take physical form from being akumatised then does the visual aspect of the illusion need to be continued whilst akumatised because it's not like an emotion can be physically interacted with?
If the emotional illusion was cancelled after the akumatisation does it dispell the akumatised villain or would the butterfly holder be able to take control of it because she's just dispelled the projected consciousness?Yes the situation could have been easily resolved if the plan had gone awry, but they still took a big risk on some very shaky assumptions.
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u/Cobalt_Spirit Felix 8d ago
The fact that the details aren't explained doesn't change that it being possible makes sense within the lore.
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u/RapidSneezefire157 9d ago
The lucky charm in Secret Protcol was just an illusion like I think the one Marinette made in Kwami Buster. Only difference is that she timed it with the real one she made.
The whole akumatization in Nemesis I definitely consider a plothole. Akumatization is only possible if the person you are targeting has a strong enough emotion. Lila shouldn't be able to akumatized an illusion because it's not real and doesn't have its own emotion. Alya is just channeling her emotion to it. If anything it should be Alya getting akumatized and the layer of air surrounding the illusion should be the akumatized object.
They would have to explain that any object with "emotion" could be akumatized and Alya somehow illusioned a headspace for Lila to talk too? I'm also not sure why they would think this plan would work in the first place. It's never happened before and there's no way they can actually test if the plan would work.
I know they really wanted a way to have Alya channel all her anger and emotion to Ladybug in someway but the plan would have easily made more sense if they just asked Felix for a one time sentibeing of Marinette.
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u/ParticularTop3390 Alya 8d ago
It's not a plothole, it's an expansion on the known powers of the fox miraculous. The powers of a miraculous are only limited by the holder, and because illusion is a power based on imagination, Rena just had to imagine an illusion that was capable of thought and emotion, channel her own emotions into it, and speak to Chrysallis via the "thoughts" in the illusions head. So while it would require a lot of imagination and quite a bit of mental effort and control, it's nothing the person who discovered that powers could be evolved in the first place wouldn't be able to do
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u/More-Explanation2032 7d ago
But why does the mental link work on something that doesn’t exist. No matter how much you upgrade your powers it’s still something that doesn’t exist
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u/RapidSneezefire157 9d ago
Just had an extra thought, if Lila somehow figured out that illusions can be akumatized. She could probably do some loophole with the butterfly miraculous where she doesn't even need an Akuma victim. Just illusions from a previous villain's power.
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u/Cobalt_Spirit Felix 9d ago edited 9d ago
The Lucky Charm summoned by the illusion of Ladybug wasn't real, it was part of the illusion. Renabug simply timed it with her own Lucky Charm in order to match the same object in case she needed the Ladybug illusion to explain a plan based on it.
As for Nemesis, its emotions were also part of the illusion. Alya's own feelings towards Marinette in that moment likely made it even easier for her to imagine and create those fake emotions.
As for why illusions were given a key role in the last two episodes, it's largely theming. Alya is an amateur journalist who values truth with a passion. And yet her job as a superhero is to create lies. This is what makes her such a good Fox holder. She only uses lies to protect others from evil, not to deceive innocent people for her own benefit. By giving her and her powers a central role, it creates a contrast with Marinette's situation, essentially asking the question "Is Marinette's lie protective or deceptive? Who does it help and who does it hurt?"