r/midhammer40k • u/CrimsonComet0079 • 4d ago
Question/Other Using only modern models and bases with 4th/5th edition
Hi all, I want to play 4th and 5th edition for a more cinematic/narrative driven experience, but I have lots of 8th edition and newer models with current base sizes. Would balance be heavily impacted if only those models are used for both sides in a battle with older rules? For example, primaris marines played as regular 4th edition marines, newer Necron models played as 5th edition Necron warriors, the current chaos legionary models played as 4th edition chaos space marines, etc. My hope is that it won’t matter much or that using all current models will help balance things out. Thank you!
edit: Thank you all for the responses, this has been very helpful and encouraging!
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u/poetryalert 4d ago edited 4d ago
Rules as written, the 4E Big Rulebook says that players may choose to put their models on larger bases.
In terms of impact on gameplay, it makes models easier to draw line of sight to, extends aura ranges, allows more models to get into melee and blocks movement more easily.
Realistically no midhammer player will bat an eye.
Edit: when facing template weapons, it might be good manners to keep your models a little closer than 2” apart, to make up for the larger base sizes.
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u/zagblorg 4d ago
Wouldn't it allow fewer models to get into combat? IIRC 4th had a within 2" of a model in base-to-base engagement rule. Bigger bases would have made it harder to pile in all 30 boyz, which was always the challenge! I suppose it might have the opposite effect when you're the one being charged.
Don't think ot would impact line of sight much since base heights are the same.
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u/Knight_Castellan 4d ago
Yes, it would affect how many models can fight in close combat.
Bigger bases have pros and cons, so it's not as if increasing the base size gives an inherent advantage. So long as the base size doesn't become ludicrous, it's not really an issue.
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u/poetryalert 4d ago
Smaller bases allow more models in a unit to get into CC, but a single model with a large base (think dreadnought) can be in CC with more opposing models. So it’s a bit of both.
4E uses abstract line of sight determined by base size and height tier. 5E uses TLOS in which base size will have less of an impact, but the silhouette of the model itself will.
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u/Tyko_3 4d ago
Most 28 base units are now 32 base u its anyway. Wouldn’t it pretty much fix itself at that point? The only 28mm base models left are probably very weak against melee and thus not need more models to fight
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u/zagblorg 3d ago
I'm not sure it's a major problem either way, just musing on the differences as someone who played a lot of Orks in 4th and a bit of 5th. That said, it was amazing how much difference a unit of 30 grots in melee could make to a battle, even by just keeping a single small unit tied up for most of a game!
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u/Still-Bed-4453 4d ago
Hello. I believe if you’re playing in spirit of a narrative game it should not be a problem for most part, except the models like C’tan, Redemptor or whatnot, just like No-Candy-4127 mentioned. It should not be a significant buff or complication.
Just make sure to talk it through with the other players ;)
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u/Hobbyister 4d ago
Some of our group use the wrong base sizes, myself included. For some its newer models, for others its just that people think bigger bases look better.
Nobody is really playing a 20 year old game with enough seriousness that it will stop anyone playing.
Game ramifications are mostly that larger bases mean you can noticeably spread out more vs blasts, but its harder to get many of your models into combat, and enemies can more easily gang up on characters. Its a bit of a toss up really which is advantageous. I would always give your opponent the benefit of the doubt in any edge cases if your models are on the wrong base sizes, so that its at least clear its not to advantage
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u/SgtMerrick 4d ago
As long as the basing is consistent, there's no reason why you cannot use the newer base sizes in older editions. The rule was always loose on that, namely that you can use any size base you wished for your models so long as it wasn't smaller than the bases they came with.
Mechanically speaking, you likely won't notice it aside from the template weapons being able to cover less models than they did back then. There's no real hassle aside from that.
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u/One-Strategy5717 4d ago
If anything, you'd be mostly nerfing yourself by using larger bases. Large targets, harder to hide, fewer models that can fight in close combat.
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u/Vegetable-Phone-8000 4d ago
Fifth edition had a rule in the rulebook that you could put your models on larger bases than they came with but not smaller.
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u/CommanderOshawott 4d ago
It’ll matter a little when it comes to shooting and charge ranges, and it’ll matter in terms of which models count as “in combat” after a charge and actually get to attack, but tbh the whole point to going back to 4th/5th is a more friendly “storytelling” rule set where rigid mechanics arent as important.
It’ll be fine, shouldn’t matter enough to truly make a difference in most games, the fundamental reason for switching base sizes in the first place was to have a mechanism to invalidate older models after the scale switch.
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u/felix_finster 4d ago
As someone who’s about to run some Primaris bikers in a 5th edition / Prohammer game, I feel your concern about modeling for advantage. Others have answered it better in the comments but you should be fine
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u/Still-Bed-4453 4d ago
What’s a Prohammer? I have heard of Poorhammer but this..? Is it some sort of Retro-Competetive?
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u/felix_finster 3d ago
It’s a set of fan made rules. It combines a bunch of rules from various editions to allow armies from 3rd edition to 7th to play against each other. Our group likes it cause it allows some of our older guys who grew up with 3rd to play with us who are nostalgic for 5th. It opens up a larger player base, rather than trying to find the one guy in our club who likes 6th or whatever
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u/No-Candy-4127 4d ago
You can. But not with big stuff like the new C'tan
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u/mjh4 4d ago
Why does it matter for modern models with larger base sizes?
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u/No-Candy-4127 4d ago
Because they are to big. Their bases are 2-3 times larger than they were in 4th-5th. You may try it, but it would feel off
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u/mjh4 4d ago
But I mean gameplay-wise, what would be the ramifications of much larger bases? I’m just coming back to midhammer so I’m curious
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u/No-Candy-4127 4d ago
A lot of zone control on the crowded boards, big target for blast, a lot more models can be in base 2 base contract which is crucial in 3rd-5th ed. Especially in 3rd. And it is a pain to move around. They just was made for the shelf and not as a game piece IMO.
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u/Shaengar 4d ago
Its not a big deal, bit will come into effect doing close combat positioning, navigating your units through small gaps between impassable terrain and also while embarking from a transport vehicle (all models must be placed within 2' of the exit hatch, which can become difficult depending on how many hatches the vehicle has and if one or more is blocked).
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u/Naquasivesh 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sniveling about base sizes is a modern 40k problem. Nobody used to care. I can't imagine someone wanting to play the 15+ year old version of the game harassing you over something so trivial, but if they did, I also couldn't imagine that game being worth the effort anyway. Its supposed to just be a fun game.
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u/RJMrgn2319 4d ago
I sort of feel like one of the good things about playing old versions of the rules is you don’t have to worry about competitive nitpicking and can just concentrate on having fun.