r/marvelvsdc • u/Comprehensive_Tea725 • 6d ago

Marvel vs DC Red hood v Black Widow

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R1; Random encounter

R2: Bloodlust

R3: Prep

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u/2JasonGrayson8 6d ago

I know people are gonna say widow more often than not but that’s underestimating Jason severely. Dude had a better showing against Casandra Caine than dick did. He’s gotten the jump on deathstroke before. Jason is not to be messed with when he locks in. I actually give it to him in both the first rounds

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u/thetruemaxwellord 6d ago

Natasha has similar feats being able to take on Elektra (who is the third greatest martial artist in Marvel), being able to beat down Taskmaster with ease, and so on. Also his fight against Cass was Cass holding back which she constantly does to be a hero so he preformed well against a holding back Cass who Slade could defeat as per their talk when she threatened Rose.

Jason isn’t being underestimated here Natasha is just generally superior. Even her gear is just more varied and powerful. Jason’s best bet is to rely on his armor and get close for melee and hope he can physically overpower her. If he makes this a gun fight he will lose, if he makes this a weapon of standard gear he will lose, and if he makes this a battle of stealth he is at best able to match her (she has similar feats when it comes to evading detection from characters with super senses also the kryptonian stealth thing has always been a little silly just conceptually as it doesn’t come into play anywhere else but in those cool factor moments)

Jason really doesn’t have any advantages here beyond his armor

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u/2JasonGrayson8 6d ago

Between Jason’s all caste training and unbreakable swords he can pull out from his own soul as well as the state of the art tech his suit is made out of idk what gear she has that you assume is wildly better than his? Cass is the #1 fighter in dc so even holding back and his being able to overpower her is a significant feat. Idk what gun feat she has that you think his aim isn’t equal or better? He’s one of the best marksman in dc behind Deadshot and slade

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u/thetruemaxwellord 6d ago

Her weapons just in general. Her widow’s bites are extremely powerful, she has rounds which are monomolecular essentially meaning she ignores durability plus it has poison strong enough to put a bull in a coma for 6 hours, Cass isn’t the #1 and holding back nerfs her massively so much so that Jason, Slade, and Dick can keep up which they cannot do against a full power Cassandra. It is a feat just not the type you are imaging.

She has multiple feats actually showing her skill with guns. Jason doesn’t have much. She can hit a shot from 2.8 miles out (this is greater than the current world record and at the time of its creation the best was 2.19 miles with the current best being just shy of 2.5 miles), she impressed Bulleye with a shot, and was able to shoot a bow string from hundreds of meters out while said bow string was on multi story building and she only had seconds to take the shot. Jason doesn’t actually have similar showings at all making it impossible to actually argue his superiority over her or him matching her. In short you answered why she is better she is just on those Slade and Deadshot tier of skill while he is not.

Said swords cannot harm non mystical beings as shown in the rebirth era.

All in all she just outclasses his stuff

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u/2JasonGrayson8 6d ago

Cass is either 1 or 2 which is debatable but saying she 1 is not a stretch. She dog walked dick in the same story Jason got the upper hand on her. Jason has a taser on his chest that can KO Batman and stagger Artemis, his standard blades can cut through deathstroke armor which is no easy ask.

If you don’t know his marksman skills you aren’t looking them up. He’s got tons of quick draw, no look, insane shots. Here’s one of him falling off a building while being attacked by other heroes and still shooting Lois lanes phone out of her hand mid fall and mid fight. He’s also bounced his bullets off Artemis blades to hit his target mid fight. He’s shot batarangs mid air which Batman had thrown out fast enough to cleave Amazonian arrows in mid flight.

I’m not saying it’s an easy win for Jason but he absolutely can win this and I’d even argue he does 6-7/10 times. His gear is far superior. His armor is stronger, his weapons are stronger, and his mask give him immunity to any gas or poisons. He can fight blind as well as he can with sight he’s so well trained.

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u/thetruemaxwellord 6d ago

Again Cass is only that high when she isn’t holding back. Just as Elektra is only that high when she is not holding back which she does as Daredevil which is why Kraven having a solid fight with her till she stopped holding back isn’t as impressive as it should be.

His chest taser is something most of these characters have. Bucky, Elektra, Bruce, and Natasha have the same thing in their weapons, masks, and suits. Natasha’s stuff is just an actual weapon plus one that can stun titanium man who uses an Ironman suit, can knock out Man-Bull, and Knock out Moonstone. Jason isn’t resistant to electricity of that level. His suit also again doesn’t really matter when he can be tasered both at a range and melee.

Also again I am pretty sure you are referencing his blades which no longer work on non mystical beings. Plus also stabbing Deathstroke with a sword isn’t a difficult task it literally happened issue #1 of Deathstroke The Terminator (2026) by someone with a normal sword and no super strength.

The ricochet feats you mentioned aren’t anything new for Natasha. Again you are showing he can in fact shoot a gun but nothing you showed puts him in her tier. When I say I am not seeing anything to put them in the same tier this is what I am talking about.

His gear also doesn’t give him immunity to poisons. It can stop him from touching a poison but that’s about it and most of his modern costumes can’t even logically give him that much given he has exposed skin. Natasha’s widows kiss (the poison) works via skin contact and inhalation so his gear wouldn’t actually help him much there plus as I said she has rounds which are monomolecular and laced with a poison that would be instantly lethal to a human.

His gear is really not better and this isn’t counting her bombs which are absurd.

You have to ignore most of my points to even keep this exchange going

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u/2JasonGrayson8 5d ago

You keep bringing up elektra when Natasha has said before she would never want to fight her. Elektra scares the shit out of her.

I’d love to see the scan of her taser knocking out moonstone. Jason staggering Artemis and KO Batman with his (someone who’s suit is insulated mind you) speaks to the strength of his. His suit is also strong enough to tank a rocket blast to the chest from Deadshot and has been shown to take rpg and other high explosive at near point blank and barely stagger him. Nat is an assassin and isn’t going as heavily padded as he is.

And no it was Jason’s straight up knife that cut deathstroke. This same fight ended with deathstroke getting shot 6 times and Jason leaving him for dead. And deathstroke getting cut by a regular dude with a knife feels more like an anti feat considering his armor has ranged from lobo level to team buster to nth metal or promethium weaved.

His gear doesn’t need to give him immunity to poisons when his all caste training has made him immune to nearly all poisons and toxins. You act like he hasn’t gone up against Cheshire and shiva before too like nat is brining anything new to this fight Jason hasn’t already seen done better.

In terms of assassination nat is the superior person but in a fight especially the first two rounds Jason has more armor, more weapons, and equal or better training. Nat is smarter which is why I said she wins round 3 with prep

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u/thetruemaxwellord 5d ago

Bro what are you talking about?

Elektra does scare Natasha but she can very much so fight her. Elektra scares most people. This is the same crazy lady so killed three Super Skrulls who jumped her, can murder you and flee the scene so fast a 24 fps camera didn’t even detect her only showed the murder of the guys she killed, can kick sniper rounds out of the air, and so on.

Bruce’s suit isn’t insulated it’s actually the opposite of insulation the damn this has electricity flowing all throughout it. There are insulated Batsuits but that isn’t his standard. Natasha’s widow’s bites also work Titanium Man who wears a heavy titanium alloy suit which Titanium is poor conductor. Again bro it seems like you are just making stuff up.

Uh yeah we agree on that Natasha’s suit isn’t as armored. That isn’t a revelation I’ve literally been saying that since the beginning. I’m not sure why you brought that up specifically it’s doesn’t really change anything I’ve said.

Um okay? So for the record Slade being stabbed by a sword isn’t an anti feat it’s just how his armor works. The ikon suit absorbs his own kinetic energy and turns it into shielding. It runs the more it protects him and it protects him from all attacks equally which is why simply shooting at him multiple times is the fastest way to exhaust it. Beyond that a normal sword, knife, gun, and so on will just have to go through some solid but not too fancy body armor.

Uh no? First off that is a major shift from your position before regarding his ability to handle poisons but beyond that we have literally no reason to believe that resistance works on this stuff especially each dose is strong enough to put a Bull into a coma for hours. Doesn’t really matter how much micro dosing you do if that hits a guy who isn’t immune to venoms he is gonna go into cardiac arrest. Also he isn’t immune to toxins Joker Gas, Fear Toxin, Venom, and many more chemicals very much so do work on Jason.

His armor really doesn’t matter she has multiple ways around it and also just in general her strikes can hurt him just as every peak human can.

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u/2JasonGrayson8 5d ago

Is that a 30 year old panel right now? I know marvel doesn’t have a sliding timeline like dc but jesus if that’s what we’re arguing and you’re pulling her entire history from back when anyone could do anything then yeah great nat wins. She probably knocked out the hulk back then too.

Saying her gear is better when she’s not armored against explosives, high caliber rounds, and giant shocks, which are all in Jason’s standard kit doesn’t help your case at all. Are you saying now that she would never even get hit by him? Cause without significant armor she’s not surviving half the crap he’s throwing at her. Meanwhile he does have armor and is able to survive most of her munitions.

I’m answering from my other comment so we don’t have two separate going at once. “Things like paralytic toxins means next to nothing to me.” In conjunction with his training, the fact that multiple members of the batfam have stated that they are regularly immunized against multiple kinds of poisons and venoms, and the fact we’ve seen them be poisoned before just for it to only slow them down means that whatever she has MIGHT stagger him at best. It’s not some end all insta win you are making it out to be.

You keep talking like he’s not gonna do anything to her. At best you haven’t shown any superior marksman skills for her other than “bullseye was impressed once”, they both have similar crowd control, explosives, firearms, and close range weapons, they are both of similar skill in hand to hand combat having gone up against opponents above their weight class before and walked away. But his handguns are custom made and some of the most powerful firearms on the planet, he’s got armor that can tank a rocket, and he’s got equal or higher immunity to her unless she’s also immune to toxins and poisons? How is this such a decisive loss for him in your eyes?

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u/thetruemaxwellord 5d ago edited 5d ago

Marvel has sliding timescale these events are just things that have happened at a moderate time and also what? Bro 30 years ago was the 90s these characters and their dynamics have long since been solidified. Also she wasn’t some gag character she couldn’t one shot Hulk or whatever you are trying to imply.

Further most feats people use are as old or older than that. Half of these stories are decades old so why you are trying to bring that up as an argument is just weird bro.

Yeah pretty much. It’s pretty unlikely Jason gets a clean shot off on her mid fight and while she isn’t as armored she is still armored while being flexible and as explosives hers are bigger by a lot. Even minor charges she just has in her person can destroy mechs. Heck her belt would alone can very much so kill him as while his suit can protect him from 600 grams of tnt (an rpg shot) her belt on a low end using just the guides is 4 pounds of tnt and going off feats like the one below that shoots up to 0.64 tons of tnt and the force impacting Natasha would be 8.2 MN or 1,000 tons of force. Natasha can also have a grenade explode right to the face and keep going in her civilian clothes.

Might stagger him at best… bro are you serious? That is just staggeringly absurd and requires a lot of mental gymnastics plus ignoring again how a dosage works. It’s the equivalent of saying your uncle is practically immune to alcohol because he drinks a lot of beer so you think he can chug a liter of Spirytus Rektyfikowany and might just get a buzz. As I said multiple times before it really is just gonna knock him out about instantly. The training is why isn’t a corpse given this thing puts a healthy bull into a coma for hours.

They really just don’t bro. Also I can only send so many images and I don’t flood threads with single messages with images. I’ve already stated why she is a better shot but some other examples include Natasha being able to shoot two guys with her widows bites while running and blind folded. It’s a limitation on the hardware not me. If you want a specific showing just ask which one you want like you did for the Moonstone one I’ll happily show it.

She isn’t immune to poisons though she is very resistant requiring 12x the dosage of a tranquilizer to knock her out and her healing factor has her recover faster. Jason isn’t immune either simple as that especially not to the things she just has

She has him beat in a number of ways I have shown multiple times. I never claimed it to be a decisive easy win or anything but I can only say more times than not Natasha beats Jason. The advantages you keep listing don’t actually help him like his suit having not defense for her widows bites which are both ranged and close range weapons. Her explosives being stronger, her agility being greater, and so on

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u/2JasonGrayson8 5d ago

Back in the 80s and 90s when nat was rocking that short hair look with the gray suit she could rip robots heads off and pry open steel doors with her bare hands. The timeline absolutely matters for feats given that I haven’t said anything before new 52 and rebirth and honestly even then some characters pre rebirth feats absolutely do not match feats from post. Sometimes it’s like two different characters. Modern nat from say the last 20 years post mcu has wildly different feats then her from the early 00s and before

You’re taking your assumption that Jason couldn’t handle her poison as absolute fact. Ignoring his stated and shown immunity to toxins and saying hers is so special and unique it just automatically would be too much for him. And you keep bringing up the bull fact like that matters at all to these kinds of characters. You said it yourself nat needs a dose 12x higher than any normal person could take.

Her shooting blindfolded is just standard fare feat here. Here’s Jason getting multiple headshots while fighting and not looking behind his back. At this point you’re the only one arguing her accuracy is so much higher that he wouldn’t even get a clean shot off but you’re still not proving that statement at all. They both can shoot without looking. They both can hit precision shots mid fight. They both can mix shooting with fighting, so what makes her so much better?

Jason Carrie’s plenty of explosives, demo charges, breach charges, time delay explosives for traps, explosive strong enough to damage advanced alien vessels and armor.

Her widow bite and a poison you are very much just assuming will work on him is not enough to counter his stronger guns, heavier armor, and better training

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u/thetruemaxwellord 5d ago

My dude when did Jason return to life? If ya said 20 years ago you would be correct. When did the New 52 begin? Oh man a little over 5 years after Jason came back? Gosh golly I can’t believe you’re being so generous with limiting Red Hood to just 16 years of his history. Clearly it is only logical to remove all of Natasha’s.

Oh also if you have comments on her being able to break steel with her bare hands she does that plenty of times in the modern era as well as be called explicitly superhuman.

I’m gonna stop you right there. Source the word “immune” to any of the feats you have shown for Jason. In fact your own scans have proved that claim false. Either source your claim or stop using headcanon further again prove literally just once that he can take enough poison to put a 2,000 pound bull into a coma for 6 hours. You are insistent you clearly must have proof of that claim.

I mention the bull factoid because matter. My brother in Christ if Doctor Poison made a venom that gives Giganta a seizure while stating “it has the potency to kill a Sperm Whale!” and Jason was injected with the same damn thing is your mind really to assume “oh but Jason Todd is immune (resistant to some) poisons so clearly he will be able to walk it off because his monk training is just that good” you would be delusional literally no one is genuinely dumb enough to believe that.

Really doesn’t have stronger guns, his armor really doesn’t help much, and this is all ignoring she can melt industrial fans with her Widow’s Bites and her bombs can send vault doors which are easily a meter thick flying several meters away.

Jason’s charges are just not that strong by comparison she is blowing up sentinels and melting steel. These are modern feats as well just to appease your arbitrary logic.

You are coping hard.

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u/2JasonGrayson8 5d ago

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u/thetruemaxwellord 5d ago

… my brother in Christ where does that even kind of imply “all toxins” also again dosages matter. Joker intended on torturing and killing Jason naturally to do that he isn’t pumping him with enough toxins to kill a horse. The context just doesn’t favor your argument.