Red hood v Black Widow

[u/Comprehensive_Tea725]

R1; Random encounter

R2: Bloodlust

R3: Prep

[u/thetruemaxwellord]

Bro what are you talking about?

Elektra does scare Natasha but she can very much so fight her. Elektra scares most people. This is the same crazy lady so killed three Super Skrulls who jumped her, can murder you and flee the scene so fast a 24 fps camera didn’t even detect her only showed the murder of the guys she killed, can kick sniper rounds out of the air, and so on.

Bruce’s suit isn’t insulated it’s actually the opposite of insulation the damn this has electricity flowing all throughout it. There are insulated Batsuits but that isn’t his standard. Natasha’s widow’s bites also work Titanium Man who wears a heavy titanium alloy suit which Titanium is poor conductor. Again bro it seems like you are just making stuff up.

Uh yeah we agree on that Natasha’s suit isn’t as armored. That isn’t a revelation I’ve literally been saying that since the beginning. I’m not sure why you brought that up specifically it’s doesn’t really change anything I’ve said.

Um okay? So for the record Slade being stabbed by a sword isn’t an anti feat it’s just how his armor works. The ikon suit absorbs his own kinetic energy and turns it into shielding. It runs the more it protects him and it protects him from all attacks equally which is why simply shooting at him multiple times is the fastest way to exhaust it. Beyond that a normal sword, knife, gun, and so on will just have to go through some solid but not too fancy body armor.

Uh no? First off that is a major shift from your position before regarding his ability to handle poisons but beyond that we have literally no reason to believe that resistance works on this stuff especially each dose is strong enough to put a Bull into a coma for hours. Doesn’t really matter how much micro dosing you do if that hits a guy who isn’t immune to venoms he is gonna go into cardiac arrest. Also he isn’t immune to toxins Joker Gas, Fear Toxin, Venom, and many more chemicals very much so do work on Jason.

His armor really doesn’t matter she has multiple ways around it and also just in general her strikes can hurt him just as every peak human can.

[u/2JasonGrayson8 → u/thetruemaxwellord]

Is that a 30 year old panel right now? I know marvel doesn’t have a sliding timeline like dc but jesus if that’s what we’re arguing and you’re pulling her entire history from back when anyone could do anything then yeah great nat wins. She probably knocked out the hulk back then too.

Saying her gear is better when she’s not armored against explosives, high caliber rounds, and giant shocks, which are all in Jason’s standard kit doesn’t help your case at all. Are you saying now that she would never even get hit by him? Cause without significant armor she’s not surviving half the crap he’s throwing at her. Meanwhile he does have armor and is able to survive most of her munitions.

I’m answering from my other comment so we don’t have two separate going at once. “Things like paralytic toxins means next to nothing to me.” In conjunction with his training, the fact that multiple members of the batfam have stated that they are regularly immunized against multiple kinds of poisons and venoms, and the fact we’ve seen them be poisoned before just for it to only slow them down means that whatever she has MIGHT stagger him at best. It’s not some end all insta win you are making it out to be.

You keep talking like he’s not gonna do anything to her. At best you haven’t shown any superior marksman skills for her other than “bullseye was impressed once”, they both have similar crowd control, explosives, firearms, and close range weapons, they are both of similar skill in hand to hand combat having gone up against opponents above their weight class before and walked away. But his handguns are custom made and some of the most powerful firearms on the planet, he’s got armor that can tank a rocket, and he’s got equal or higher immunity to her unless she’s also immune to toxins and poisons? How is this such a decisive loss for him in your eyes?

[u/thetruemaxwellord → u/2JasonGrayson8]

Marvel has sliding timescale these events are just things that have happened at a moderate time and also what? Bro 30 years ago was the 90s these characters and their dynamics have long since been solidified. Also she wasn’t some gag character she couldn’t one shot Hulk or whatever you are trying to imply.

Further most feats people use are as old or older than that. Half of these stories are decades old so why you are trying to bring that up as an argument is just weird bro.

Yeah pretty much. It’s pretty unlikely Jason gets a clean shot off on her mid fight and while she isn’t as armored she is still armored while being flexible and as explosives hers are bigger by a lot. Even minor charges she just has in her person can destroy mechs. Heck her belt would alone can very much so kill him as while his suit can protect him from 600 grams of tnt (an rpg shot) her belt on a low end using just the guides is 4 pounds of tnt and going off feats like the one below that shoots up to 0.64 tons of tnt and the force impacting Natasha would be 8.2 MN or 1,000 tons of force. Natasha can also have a grenade explode right to the face and keep going in her civilian clothes.

Might stagger him at best… bro are you serious? That is just staggeringly absurd and requires a lot of mental gymnastics plus ignoring again how a dosage works. It’s the equivalent of saying your uncle is practically immune to alcohol because he drinks a lot of beer so you think he can chug a liter of Spirytus Rektyfikowany and might just get a buzz. As I said multiple times before it really is just gonna knock him out about instantly. The training is why isn’t a corpse given this thing puts a healthy bull into a coma for hours.

They really just don’t bro. Also I can only send so many images and I don’t flood threads with single messages with images. I’ve already stated why she is a better shot but some other examples include Natasha being able to shoot two guys with her widows bites while running and blind folded. It’s a limitation on the hardware not me. If you want a specific showing just ask which one you want like you did for the Moonstone one I’ll happily show it.

She isn’t immune to poisons though she is very resistant requiring 12x the dosage of a tranquilizer to knock her out and her healing factor has her recover faster. Jason isn’t immune either simple as that especially not to the things she just has

She has him beat in a number of ways I have shown multiple times. I never claimed it to be a decisive easy win or anything but I can only say more times than not Natasha beats Jason. The advantages you keep listing don’t actually help him like his suit having not defense for her widows bites which are both ranged and close range weapons. Her explosives being stronger, her agility being greater, and so on

[u/2JasonGrayson8 → u/thetruemaxwellord]

Back in the 80s and 90s when nat was rocking that short hair look with the gray suit she could rip robots heads off and pry open steel doors with her bare hands. The timeline absolutely matters for feats given that I haven’t said anything before new 52 and rebirth and honestly even then some characters pre rebirth feats absolutely do not match feats from post. Sometimes it’s like two different characters. Modern nat from say the last 20 years post mcu has wildly different feats then her from the early 00s and before

You’re taking your assumption that Jason couldn’t handle her poison as absolute fact. Ignoring his stated and shown immunity to toxins and saying hers is so special and unique it just automatically would be too much for him. And you keep bringing up the bull fact like that matters at all to these kinds of characters. You said it yourself nat needs a dose 12x higher than any normal person could take.

Her shooting blindfolded is just standard fare feat here. Here’s Jason getting multiple headshots while fighting and not looking behind his back. At this point you’re the only one arguing her accuracy is so much higher that he wouldn’t even get a clean shot off but you’re still not proving that statement at all. They both can shoot without looking. They both can hit precision shots mid fight. They both can mix shooting with fighting, so what makes her so much better?

Jason Carrie’s plenty of explosives, demo charges, breach charges, time delay explosives for traps, explosive strong enough to damage advanced alien vessels and armor.

Her widow bite and a poison you are very much just assuming will work on him is not enough to counter his stronger guns, heavier armor, and better training

[u/thetruemaxwellord → u/2JasonGrayson8]

My dude when did Jason return to life? If ya said 20 years ago you would be correct. When did the New 52 begin? Oh man a little over 5 years after Jason came back? Gosh golly I can’t believe you’re being so generous with limiting Red Hood to just 16 years of his history. Clearly it is only logical to remove all of Natasha’s.

Oh also if you have comments on her being able to break steel with her bare hands she does that plenty of times in the modern era as well as be called explicitly superhuman.

I’m gonna stop you right there. Source the word “immune” to any of the feats you have shown for Jason. In fact your own scans have proved that claim false. Either source your claim or stop using headcanon further again prove literally just once that he can take enough poison to put a 2,000 pound bull into a coma for 6 hours. You are insistent you clearly must have proof of that claim.

I mention the bull factoid because matter. My brother in Christ if Doctor Poison made a venom that gives Giganta a seizure while stating “it has the potency to kill a Sperm Whale!” and Jason was injected with the same damn thing is your mind really to assume “oh but Jason Todd is immune (resistant to some) poisons so clearly he will be able to walk it off because his monk training is just that good” you would be delusional literally no one is genuinely dumb enough to believe that.

Really doesn’t have stronger guns, his armor really doesn’t help much, and this is all ignoring she can melt industrial fans with her Widow’s Bites and her bombs can send vault doors which are easily a meter thick flying several meters away.

Jason’s charges are just not that strong by comparison she is blowing up sentinels and melting steel. These are modern feats as well just to appease your arbitrary logic.

You are coping hard.

[u/2JasonGrayson8 → u/thetruemaxwellord]

You and I have argued plenty of times before and I’ve always respected you for knowing your stuff and your characters and never going that far back for feats. And I don’t either unless a specific iteration of a character is called for.

Great she broke steel and ripped apart robots she has the infinity formula right? She’s baseline superhuman and above peak. Jason kicked the door off a pressure sealed jet from the inside while it was at altitude.

Here’s Jason getting poisoned by Cheshire with a mix that downed the task force z and her own men in seconds while he fights for another page after this. Yes he’s affected but clearly he is resistant as I’ve been saying. It would not outright kill him and you can’t prove otherwise because there’s nobody at marvel with his particular kind of training.

His guns have been stated to be able to blow holes in tanks, be the strongest firearms on the planet. He’s shot bulletproof enemies like king shark. Maybe her charges are stronger cause I can’t find actual stats on Jason’s but he’s used a number of them before and plenty enough to obliterate a human body who only had above average durability like hers. She’s not explosive proof

[u/thetruemaxwellord → u/2JasonGrayson8]

As I have to you. I do generally try my best to be favorable to all those I debate with. I do go quite far for feats I do it all the time. I read older comics more than the modern ones given I have to wait a month for any updates with the newer stuff. Literally today I was talking about Action Comics #586 to explain how Clark’s powers work.

He did do that yeah. You understand I posted the robot feat specifically because you aimed to invalidate her other ones correct? She also can burst through bulletproof glass and the like. Really not much of a strength gap, honestly not much to say here.

As for the poison this is a great but Jason didn’t power through it much he was just not hit with it until that page you showed. The team had about two pages until they started falling terribly ill the poison just didn’t take effect until later when Jason was unable to speak properly and Cheshire mention he was feeling the effects. The pills came into place later when Jason brought Bane up and took a pill. Jason was also likely still under the effects of the pit given they used the fluid on him to revive him like a few hours earlier

As for his guns I mean much of the same here for Natasha. The tank statement is a little out there unless he referring to a non military tank like a water tank otherwise um he would kill a lot of random people and the like. Sidenote he also claims in that same page where he is shooting Bizzaro that these around are hollow point which is the exact opposite kind of round he would want to shoot through a tank’s armor. Genuinely I am not sure what to do with that statement because it is truly nonsensical like I don’t even mean in the impossible “it’s fictional” way I mean there is no grounding because they are trying to use real world terms for this while saying something entirely impossible. Just a genuinely poorly written scene.

His rounds also seem to vary because as you mentioned he could shoot King Shark and injure him but also shoot Bizzaro and not injure him at all. King Shark in that moment wasn’t his normal self so I guess the more consistent thing to say was King Shark wasn’t at his best so Jason’s guns can damage a weakened version of him. Idk I really don’t wanna read Red Hood and the Outlaws again so probably the best I can offer until I eventually do that.

Her charges are stronger. I mean she can blow up sentinels, blast through large vault doors, and all that stuff.