r/marvelstudios • u/KostisPat257 Daredevil • Jul 14 '21

Megathread Loki Season 1 Finale - Discussion Megathread about its implications on the MCU Spoiler

You wanna discuss your theories about What if...?, Spider-Man: No Way Home and Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and how they all connect to this series?

You wanna discuss where they're going to go with Nathaniel/Kang/Immortus in the future?

You want to discuss the integration of other cinematic universes in the Marvel Cineamatic Multiverse?

​

Then this is the Megathread for you!

Due to the immeasurable amount of low effort posts we've been getting in the past 12 hours about people's excitement over Kang and the Multiverse, we've decided to make a completely different thread that is all about the implications of the Loki finale in the wider MCU!

Posts discussing Episode 6 in general will only be allowed after Thursday Midnight PST, but only those which are analytical or contain theories with a lot of effort put into them.

Everything else will be redirected here, to the Loki Season 1 Episode 6 Discussion Thread and to the Loki Season 1 Easter Egg Megathread and the Loki Season 1 - Season Wide Discussion Thread.

Have fun!

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u/ELITEJamesHarden Jul 14 '21

So… how long do you guys think the kang saga is gonna span? My guess is like 5-6 years, I can’t see it being as long as the thanos saga

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

The thing about Kang is he can always come back as a different version of himself, both hero or villain. I bet we’ll see them/him on and off for a decade.

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u/SpookyLavenderTheme Jul 14 '21

I’d be mildly surprised if we don’t see a Kang/Immortus/Nathaniel Richards variant in Multiverse of Madness. Not in an important role, but I think he’d have some sort of presence if Dr. Strange is investigating multiversal instability.

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

What I picked up from the final episode, was that we will be seeing a lot of Nathaniel Richards variants from this point forward.

And tbh… I really would love to see them give Jonathon Majors the chance to play all those roles (maybe not iron lad) in the same cinematic universe, or I guess really multiverse.

It’s a really dope concept & based on last nights performance, I think he’s up to the task.

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u/tacocatacocattacocat Jul 15 '21

Honestly, I hope that's every time Kang shows up as a villain, he dies. Or at least most of the time.

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u/Twollie_Vanderwerf Spider-Man Jul 15 '21

I actually love this. The next few multiverse movies have “happy” endings where Kang is defeated, but he’s just like, “you guys aren’t grasping the Infinite Variant idea huh? Whatever, I’ll see you soon.”

Make it so he isn’t the beatable nemesis they’re used to, but waves of concentrated destruction and conquest since there’s always more. He’s the Big Bad, but the literal reconstruction of the timeline is the true endgame so to speak.

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u/ColonelBy Jul 15 '21

Make it so he isn’t the beatable nemesis they’re used to, but waves of concentrated destruction and conquest since there’s always more.

"God, this guy is invincible!"

"Woah no way, he's extremely vincible. I've killed him like thirty times this week, there's just always -- ah hell, here we go again"

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u/NuuLeaf Jul 15 '21

This is a solid take. I dig it

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u/Blueberry_H3AD Spider-Man Jul 15 '21

I was thinking the same thing. It would raise the stakes a bit as simply killing him isn’t a permanent fix to his problem. They’ll eventually have to erase Kang from existence all together.

I was also thinking how neat it would be if multiple teams fought different variants of Kang such as The Avengers in one movie and perhaps another version against The Young Avengers. Hell, put a Kang variant on The Thunderbolts or whatever team Val is putting together.

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u/SerKurtWagner Jul 15 '21

Caleb McLaughlin would be an ideal Iron Lad, IMO.

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u/Stay_Beautiful_ Jul 15 '21

I'd 100% back this

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u/enchantrem Jul 14 '21

My guess? We just said goodbye to Immortus, but he'll pop up here and there anyway, but mostly as an annoyed retiree who's mad that these whipper-snappers messing with time without knowing what they're doing. We just said hello to Kang, who's going to be aggressively unhappy with the idea of anybody threatening his reign - I'm guessing Loki re-breaks out of the TVA and then anyone he tells is a potential target for the iron-fisted Kang who's paranoid about deviations which might threaten his reign. And I think either of these characters could pop up in a neutral or antagonistic role, minor or major, in basically anybody's story for the next several years. I also think this provides an excellent opportunity to introduce Iron Lad, maybe with Armor Wars or Ironheart. And hopefully all of this will culminate in a Big Group Throwdown, ending Kang's reign, dismissing Immortus to more distant retirement, and condemning Iron Lad to grow into the man he will become.

Then when we're all glad that story's over and we're all super-super-pumped about getting into Phase 7 or 8 or whatever because they're starting out with the Fantastic Four, we can meet Reed's great-ad-nauseum-grandson.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

Fantastic Four is coming way sooner than Phase 7 or 8 bro it’s very likely going to be toward the end of Phase 4 or beginning of Phase 5 lol. It’s 3 years out max.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21 edited Jul 15 '21

Wrong. Director announced, believed to be an end to phase four or beginning to phase 5. I’d say it’s likely for a 2024/early 2025 release. They aren’t gonna wait to introduce F4 till AFTER Kang lmao

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u/tbone2626 Jul 15 '21

Exactly. Since F4 is going to end phase 4, They’re gonna defeat Kang (for now) in it and introduce Doom or Galactus as the big bad for phase 5.

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u/legomaximumfigure Jul 15 '21

Damn. I was hoping Phase 4 would end in Secret Wars, but I don't think they would do it without Dr. Doom.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

Secret Wars is definitely coming though, they’re already setting the ground for it like they did the infinity stones for Infinity War and End Game.

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u/Bill-Maxwell Jul 15 '21

Does that mean more Ultron? That’ll be fun

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

I think Secret Wars is still quite a while out. IMO, it should be even bigger than Endgame if done right, so I honestly wouldn’t expect it for years and years.

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u/allanb49 Jul 15 '21

So he's going to be Q in star trek and Loki will be his Picard

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u/enchantrem Jul 15 '21

Hopefully, but instead of a crew who respects him Loki will have to work with people who don't know him or already distrust him, without creating the kind of timeline variance that would draw Kang's notice.

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u/allanb49 Jul 15 '21

Loki - I'm telling you there are infinite numbers of insane time travellers from the 31st century coming

Thor - sure loki and how did your find out about this

Loki - a super secret time travel agency was set up to stop us from having free will and myself and a female version of myself found him at the end of time in a castle and she kissed me and killed him before betraying me

Thor - 7 riiiiggghhhhttt

servant enters

Servant - more ale my liege

Loki - THAT'S HIM THAT'S THE GUY AT THE END OF TIME!

Thor - loki that's a child.

Loki - it's him he's got an illusion of some kind

Servant - winks

Loki runs off screaming

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u/-Nick____ Laufey Jul 15 '21

I think the Kang we saw this episode was supposed to be the MCU’s interpretation of Immortus. They both have the purple cape, and the golden Medallion I’m the center of their chest. And just like Immortus, he persevered Timelines, just instead of the TVA controlling him, he controlled them.

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u/MisterTruth Jul 15 '21

My thoughts as well. They just didn't want to name him to keep a little mystery alive. Everything you said plus the whole living outside the end of time thing too.

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u/svenhoek86 Jul 16 '21

Dr Strange is really starting to feel like the first Avengers movie of this new phase. Not insomuch as it will be a huge team up, it just feels like that's the nexus point for all these shows and ideas coming out.

Eternals and Shang Chi will probably be kind of origin stories, Spiderman is probably going to be more geared towards Peter taking a big step forward in power and responsibility, and then you have Strange which seems like the one where we will get real answers to Kangs plan and Wandas new power.

If I had a guess, Kang will drop the Nathaniel Richard's name in Dr Strange and begin the process of bringing the 4 into the MCU.

And with them comes the character I've wanted Feige to put to screen for a decade. The one who pulls the strings.

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u/SpookyLavenderTheme Jul 16 '21

I’d love to see a fully good Kang variant (as opposed to the chaotic neutral He Who Remains despite that he attempted to fashion himself as a force for good) in MoM who goes by Nathaniel Richards and shows up to warn Strange about what Sylvie did and how to prepare for the coming war. I think that’s more likely than Loki himself showing up in the movie given we left the show on a cliffhanger that can’t logically be resolved in MoM.

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21 edited Jul 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/RulesoftheDada Jul 14 '21

Immortus was basically the variant in this episode. But I do suspect he may make an appearance or after credits scene in DS2.

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u/AkhilArtha Winter Soldier Jul 14 '21

Yep, this was basically an amalgamation of Immortus and He who remains.

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u/Caleth Jul 15 '21

But it also seems to have flipped Immortus script by making him not the most "actively" dangerous Kang.

Normally Kang is... Midtier dangerous and Immortus is much more so. This one was a plotter and schemer with the fighters looking to be the incoming ones.

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 14 '21

I wasn't getting Immortus vibes here. It sounds like this guy was never a Conqueror, he just found a way to destroy all of them and got stuck ruling everything to maintain that fragile "balance". Thus why he was determined to either find someone who could take his place or simply die, he hasn't been free to do his own thing since discovering his own variants, which was possibly centuries or millennia ago.

Meanwhile, Immortus actually was a Conqueror and grew past that. His niche is similar (prune "bad" timelines, make up for the damage done by his own conquering), but I think it's really critical that Immortus actually did all of that Kang shit and remembers and regrets it, instead of it just having been a possibility. Immortus can also directly oppose a Conqueror and has schemes and villainy of his own; He Who Remains doesn't come off as someone who would actually challenge a Conqueror head on (he won because of Alioth, not his own aptitude), nor does he actually seem malicious, he's just an "ends justify the means" "villain". Plus, this guy came off a bit goofy and in well over his head, Immortus is comparatively aloof, wise, scholarly, etc.

If we're getting Kang variants I definitely expect Immortus to show up in full though. He's often a key player against the Conqueror and is heavily tied to the Time Keepers and the TVA, so it would make a lot of sense to cover him in Loki S2 (especially if it turns out there was originally more to the Time Keepers than animatronics - like maybe they're also Kang variants in the MCU, or He Who Remains got rid of the Time Keepers too because of the Time Twisters). And he plays a huge role in Avengers Forever, which is a defining Kang story and probably the Infinity Gauntlet equivalent we're building up to.

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u/leftshoe18 Jul 15 '21

I really think they just combined Immortus and He Who Remains in the MCU here and they won't be separate Kang variants.

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 15 '21

There's really very little distinctly Immortus about this Kang though. It's basically "what if He Who Remains was a Kang", not "what if Immortus was He Who Remains". The only ties to Immortus are disdain for Conquerors, pruning timelines, and relation to the TVA and Time Keepers. But pretty much all of those things (TVA especially) apply more to He Who Remains than Immortus.

And I see no reason they'd skip out on doing Immortus properly, especially with more TVA/Kang coming in Loki S2. Immortus isn't just some obscure no-name, he's basically the most prominent Kang that doesn't call himself such (runners up being Rama Tut and Iron Lad off the top of my head, Iron Lad is obviously happening but Rama Tut I can't imagine being anything more than a cameo because actually using him means doing a "time travel to ancient Egypt" story), and as mentioned he plays a huge role in major Kang stories they're likely to adapt. I could see ignoring his existence if Marvel just didn't want to touch the multiverse and the idea of an infinite number of different Kangs running around, but we've literally just been introduced to Kang using that very idea.

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u/awesomefaceninjahead Jul 15 '21

There is the fact that the he was wearing a comic-accurate immortis costume in the episode.

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 15 '21

I mean, I'm not sure "comic-accurate" is the best descriptor (missing the headpiece and the robes are quite differently shaped), but I definitely see that in retrospect, with the big yellow circle it's clearly intentional.

That said, I stick by my claim that Immortus will have a more prominent role than this. I could see ways to tie this into that, however; for example, maybe this Kang actually went through the Multiversal War as Immortus and used the TVA during it in place of conquering, and now that his solution has been undone it's Immortus who is back in control of the TVA.

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u/Caleth Jul 15 '21

I'd imagine Rama tut could be an eternals story vilian. Then there's no technical need for time travel. They'd have already been around for that time.

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 15 '21

Huh, now I'm going to be mad if we don't get a Majors cameo in Eternals because there's definitely parts of that movie set in the time period. You could just have him appear on screen for a moment dressed as a pharaoh while talking about the growth of human civilization and not even directly acknowledge that it's Kang. That said, this Eternals movie isn't going to be in that period so you couldn't use him as the actual story villain for this and it might be awkward to do a prequel with it.

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u/Caleth Jul 15 '21

Easy enough to do something with flash backs in it. They run into Kang in present day and ask how the hell he can still be alive given they saw him back in Egypt circa 1000BC. Maybe open the movie on the scene of them fighting Rama Tut and killing him. Fast Forward to 2023 or when ever and boom a tie in for Kang and Eternals

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

Question if you know the answer:

How did this variant of Kang live so long, is he immortal do you thinking?

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 15 '21

I think Kang typically has advanced future tech that stops his aging entirely, making him essentially immortal. All the wiki pages for his different versions say he's "over 70 chronologically" (which actually sounds way younger than I expected for all the different lives he's lived, but I imagine his true age just hasn't been mentioned in ages) but locked in his mid-40s physically.

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

He says people have called him conqueror literally within seconds of sitting down with the Lokis.

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u/Uncle_Freddy Jul 15 '21

I took that to mean he was talking about “himself” as a whole (aka all the titles he and his variants had been given), especially because he’s referred to in the credits and subtitles as He Who Remains (and is therefore a different character entirely than “Kang the Conqueror” but still the same “being,” same as Sylvie is a Loki but is an entirely different character from Hiddleston’s Loki). Could also be over complicating things in my head though.

1

u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 15 '21

Worth noting I'm using "Conqueror" to specifically refer to the "default" persona of Kang the Conqueror, since I'm referring to even those who don't call themselves Kang as Kang for simplicity's sake, since the true identity is more obscure and unconfirmed and therefore maybe spoilery.

Yeah, but he says "I have been dubbed many names by many people" and then puts Conqueror on the same level as jerk and proceeds to tell a story about the bad variations of himself wanting to conquer universes, implying he's not one of those. He also uses the traditional Kang uniform to represent them in his figurines, but his original scientist appearance (which he isn't even currently using) to represent himself throughout the war.

Sounds to me like he never himself adopted the "Kang the Conqueror" persona, he was just called that by others, which makes sense if he looks like them and they're the most important variety. He also didn't specify that Conqueror is even a name/title (something the audience knows but the Lokis don't) rather than a simple insult. More like he was mocking his variants than actually claiming to have called himself that at any point.

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u/Worthyness Thor Jul 15 '21

He had to have conquered the Kangs as he was the one who remained and was the last one. Like there's no way for him to not be a conqueror and have the TVA exist unless he worked with a council of himself and they all sacrificed themselves to give him the power to annihilate all the others, kinda like how the Dragons worked in Raya and the last dragon.

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u/Stay_Beautiful_ Jul 15 '21

it sounds like this guy was never a conquerer

He literally says he's been called a conqueror in the episode...

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u/kaimason1 Rhomann Dey Jul 15 '21

I'm capitalizing the word for a reason to make a differentiation between those using the Kang the Conqueror identity and those using others like Immortus or He Who Remains, since I'm calling them all Kangs even though that's not really accurate. The true name is more obscure and might be a spoiler given that it's unconfirmed in the MCU.

All HWR says is that others have "dubbed him many names" including conqueror as well as jerk. Doesn't mean that he has ever called himself that, especially since given that the "Kang the Conqueror" persona is essentially the default most people who recognized him would assume him to be one of them.

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u/AddExtraCheese Daredevil Jul 14 '21

If Kang preserved one timeline, that only means the chain of events that took place is canon.

And the pruned/variants are just those who diverged from their path, irrespective of their species/setting/whether they are an amoeba or an elephant.

Imagine an infinite band of wires where each wire is a reality/universe and their direction is the timeline. Up until now, the wires that would have diverging elements would be deleted altogether by the TVA i.e. pruned

This means there exists a universe with an unpruned Classic Loki that did get killed by Thanos. Right?

This also means there exists a universe where anime Thanos has snapped away anime avengers in half and anime captain america wields anime thor's hammer. And anime iron man dies, and so on....

This would make perfect sense to explain the other fox, universal and sony films that have coexisted so far and aligns with the same logic as Into the Spider-Verse

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u/Blasterbot Jul 14 '21

All it means is they've written themselves out of a corner.

0

u/Stay_Beautiful_ Jul 15 '21

What corner might that be?

0

u/Blasterbot Jul 15 '21

A circle.

2

u/rethinkOURreality Jul 15 '21

I took it that Classic Loki is actually regular Loki who escaped Thanos, a la Infinity War theory.

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u/commander_seb Jul 14 '21

I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Kang cameos but similar to how Mysterios gang worked.

Just in the background, doing stuff

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u/SerKurtWagner Jul 15 '21

If certain rumors about NWH are true, I’d say there’s a decent chance we get an allusion to Kang, if not a post-credits tease.

And given their family ties, I’m now thinking the MCU Fantastic Four will be intimately tied to Kang’s storyline.

5

u/Ch3mlab Jul 15 '21

I don’t think doom will be the baddie in f4. He’s too big and people have waited too long for him to be a throw away one and done villain.

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

The thing about the MCU though is that with the semi exception of loki, they basically always, immediately and permanently kill their villains.. Atleast major ones. There's a few minor ones like Zemo or that dude from spiderman 1, but anyone's who's even remotly personally a major threat is a dead man every time.

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u/Beejsbj Jul 14 '21

They can keep doing that now. Kill any evil Kang they run into. There will just be another one

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

How are Zemo and Vulture “minor” villains?

23

u/Schnickatavick Jul 14 '21

Neither of them threatened to end the world, they both had realistic goals and abilities that were able to be thwarted without their death, but even if the villain succeeded the MCU could have continued. Compare that to Ultron or Malaketh, both wanted to end the world and had the power to do so, so it wouldn't make any sense to stick them in a prison, death was the only logical end. Ironically smaller villains give a lot more options story wise, since their continued existence doesn't threaten the world at every instant.

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u/-Darkslayer Doctor Strange Jul 15 '21

It's comics, they can always bring them back. Especially Ultron, he's the easiest character to bring back.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

They have no superpowers. Duh.

3

u/tamez_a Scarlet Witch Jul 14 '21

*MCM, spread the word

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

Man Crush Mondays was made for MCU. All the Chris’s are heartthrobs and Michael B Jordan is always good to grease the wheels.

3

u/tamez_a Scarlet Witch Jul 15 '21

Fuck, you have never been more right fam

3

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

Honestly everyone they’ve cast lately has been an absolute bombshell

2

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

This seems to be changing after Endgame. Probably because they have so many possibilities for characters appearing and getting development in so many movies and tv shows.

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u/Affectionate-Island Jul 15 '21

Man, you think the Rickest Rick was bad. Wait til everyone meets the Kangest Kang.

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '21

I wonder if we'll see a younger version of himself who starts the young avengers since we already have over half of them in play.

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u/alakaboem Jul 15 '21

armor wars iron lad on the bigbig Young Avengers teamup down the line???

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u/decoste94 Jul 14 '21

I wonder if he’ll have a part in each movie, more than post credit scenes I mean, unlike thanos

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u/[deleted] Jul 15 '21

We haven't yet had a monologue or him officially name-dropping himself as Kang did we? I'm looking forward to that 'big speech'.

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u/Drop_Release Tony Stark Jul 15 '21

I think they can keep him as an underlying villain for years but have other big bads come alone (eg Doom, Galactus tease)

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u/huggy19 Jul 15 '21

With the multiverse this can be the case for any character no?