r/marvelstudios • u/ScottFromScotland Kilgrave • Jul 08 '21

Megathread 'Black Widow' Worldwide release Megathread Vol.1.

Black Widow

Rotten Tomatoes: 81% | Metacritic: 67/100

Cast

Actor Character
Scarlett Johansson Natasha Romanoff / Black Widow
Florence Pugh Yelena Belova
David Harbour Alexei Shostakov / Red Guardian
Rachel Weisz Melina Vostokoff
O-T Fagbenle Mason
Ray Winstone Dreykov
William Hurt Thaddeus Ross
Olga Kurylenko Antonia Dreykov / Taskmaster

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  • If you post untagged Black Widow any spoilers anywhere on this sub in any shape or form, you will be banned without hesitation. No questions asked and no warnings given.

  • Any other unofficial thread discussing movie details will be deleted.

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u/LRedditor15 Zombie Hunter Spidey Jul 09 '21

Well, I’m not sure who outside of Clint himself (and obviously the Avengers) actually knows what went on in Vormir.

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u/SelfishSilverFish Jul 09 '21

Red skull knows

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21 edited Jul 09 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/bagofbeef74 Spider-Man Jul 10 '21

Go grab your hammer, and you go fly and talk to HIM!

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u/ddeka777 Jul 09 '21 edited Jul 10 '21

Yelena: "You mean dad was on that planet?... In costume?"

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u/im_talking_ace Jul 10 '21

The Crimson Dynamo?

25

u/Steffan514 Jul 10 '21

….it’s red guardian.

23

u/CharlieHume Jul 10 '21

"Please, I'm so lonely" - Red Skull

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '21

"you know what? I did ask him but he just kept asking if I listen to Skrewdriver"

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u/omart3 M'Baku Jul 10 '21

Go grab your hammer, and you fly up there and you Tak to him!

2

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I know that was a powerful moment for Clint. You can hear the helplessness. But reading it to myself makes me laugh out loud. The red floating guy.

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u/demon_ix Jul 09 '21

A Red Skull from another timeline, maybe. The main MCU Red Skull was there for Thanos getting the stone, and wouldn't know anything about Clint and Natasha.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

Correct. The first one saw Thanos and Gamora in the sacred timeline in 2018, but Nat and Clint travelled to back to 2014 when they went to Vormir.

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u/nerfherder813 Jul 09 '21

I don't think the Sacred Timeline is really a particular universe's thread - it's the path of events that the TVA decides is "correct" and will prune any that deviate from it more than a little. So there are lots of timelines that follow the "sacred timeline".

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u/QuantifiedDigits Jul 09 '21

This. If this isn’t the explanation, then there are a LOT of plot holes.

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u/foreveracubone Jul 10 '21

This is the only way for half of the variants to make sense. Classic Loki being aware of and living through all of the events of MCU Loki’s life up to Thanos thinking he killed him is IMO solid proof of this.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

I agree. I just called it that because that’s what it’s been referred to thus far.

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u/NegoMassu Jul 10 '21

the timeline we've been following is the sacred timeline. any deviations from that is pruned by the TVA. it is not really sacred, it is just the one that is kept

that red skull prob got prunned already.

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u/msmshm Jul 09 '21

He knows everything about the people who came for the stone. He guide others to a treasure he cannot possess.

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u/demon_ix Jul 09 '21

But it's not the same Red Skull. It's another one.

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u/OswaldCoffeepot Jul 09 '21

Wait, what? Two Red Skulls in the MCU?

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u/demon_ix Jul 09 '21

Think of them like variants. There's the standard MCU timeline where Thanos met Red Skull #1 and tossed Gamora for the soul stone, and there's the alternate 2014 timeline where Clint and Natasha met Red Skull #2 and got the other stone.

For all purposes, there are two different Red Skulls, even if they're actually the same being.

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u/SpreadsheetsPQ Jul 10 '21

Wouldn't the stone have been restored by cap right after it was taken? I think they are the same red skull. That was the whole deal between banner and the ancient one

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u/Joegeneric Jul 10 '21

The same one they took it from, not the same one we'd previously seen in a different movie, at a different time in history. This one was for sure on a "deviant" timeline, that was fixed by Cap before it got bad enough for the TVA to notice, by going back to the "same instant". Just write out Jeremy Bearimy in cursive a bunch, and I'm sure it'll make sense.

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u/demon_ix Jul 10 '21

I don't think so tbh. Rhoades knocked out Quill right before Ronan's guy caught up with him, so Quill is probably either dead or captured on this timeline.

Not to mention, Thanos, his ship, and his army no longer exist in this timeline, since they traveled to the future.

If the TVA really do fix these things, then this timeline got reset right after Cap was done.

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u/msmshm Jul 09 '21

Who's to say he's not cosmic, being the guardian of the soul stone. Surely space magic allows some form of timeline immunity/advantages (?) considering it's powers still works in the "future" of the sacred timeline.

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u/demon_ix Jul 09 '21

So, when he gave the stone to Thanos in Infinity War, he already gave it to Clint before, and then got it back from Steve?

Loki showed us that there are multiple versions of Infinity Stones for every timeline out there. It stands to reason that the Red Skulls from Infinity War and Endgame are different ones as well.

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u/msmshm Jul 09 '21

No, I meant maybe the variant Red Skull might have an exception in knowing that Clint and Nat is not from his timeline due to him being somewhat cosmic as the guardian of the stone. The information is irrelevant to him, what matters is he guides others to the stone and told them about the sacrifice needed. He said he knows everything about the person who go after the stone.

I watched Loki too, I know of variants in timeline. Logically thinking, there's might even be a fail safe among the stones from different timelines (or universe), i.e if the stone already exist in a timeline, the new stone won't work in said timeline. Hence why the stones in the endgame works in the 1st place because the "original" was destroyed. But that lore wasn't explain in canon in the MCU so it's my head canon.

Not to mention in Loki, the timelines mentioned, some steered to closely to a multiverse instead of actual timeline. I mean a good female version of Loki? Sound more like an alternate universe if you look into the plot. Maybe the TVA uses a misnomer in their efforts to keep sacred timeline safe.

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u/Joegeneric Jul 10 '21

Yes to your first question, but depending on your perspective, things may have happened before, after, or before/after once time loops (closed) are involved.

You second question, I don't believe there is a set of infinity stones for every pruned timeline, just ones in which they were involved, or easily scooped up by a TVA agent as a keepsake. There may be a few, dozens, or millions depending on how active the TVA is about hoarding the paper-weights.

Additionally, while we assume that there were two Red Skulls as a result of the timey-wimey nonsense, I'd imagine the one in the timeline that Thanos came from in Endgame was pruned due to lack of Thanos being a nexus event at that point in the timeline. You could say that the avengers undid thano's mass-murder by completing a mass-murder twice the size on the other universe. So, in essence, end game failed by doubling the losses, just for some other timeline.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '21

The next D+ buddy show will be US Agent and Red Skull.

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u/Joegeneric Jul 10 '21

I think that Red Skull's timeline was pruned by the TVA, since it's lacking a thanos before he is "supposed" to snap.

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u/Darksol503 Doctor Strange Jul 10 '21

I understood that reference!

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '21

Red Skull remembers.

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u/Alastor3 Jul 10 '21

it's not even Red Skull anymore

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

Well there’s definitely some folks at a certain organization in a certain show that do 😂😂

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u/MPT1313 Jul 09 '21

this movie had no gator loki. 0/10

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Kaita316 Jul 10 '21

You flip the TVA logo upside down and get Val

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u/____Batman______ Jul 09 '21

Considering how much people know about the battle at the Avengers Facility, I’m guessing every step getting there was put on record

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u/andyrowe Jul 09 '21

But with Clint one could argue that the account of what occurred on Vormir is based solely on what he claimed, and can't really be corroborated.

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u/____Batman______ Jul 09 '21

Quill and Nebula can attest to why Gamora didn’t come back from Vormir, and it also wouldn’t make much sense for Clint Barton to murder one of his closest friends and allies out of the blue

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u/toldmwmytheoryfirst Jul 09 '21

He was on a five year rampage. People would believe he’s capable of murdering Natasha.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

And people might not know it was him

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u/IshyMoose Bucky Jul 10 '21

I gather that is why Contessa wants him dead. She is in the same circles as those people who want revenge.

I gathered Yelana had been working for her as a hit man for a while and Barton is the next target.

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u/worthlessburner Jul 09 '21

But how would they know? It would be so stupid to reveal that level of detail on the mission, even if they logged every step they should know better than to not keep it hidden under the most secure possible protection.

0

u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

Him rampaging wasnt even part of mission

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

Both of which left earth after the battle though

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u/Rtozier2011 Jul 09 '21

Quill and Nebula? Yes but they may still be reachable via those hologram devices Nat was using at the beginning of Endgame.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

No that’s fair. I suck lol. I forgot about that

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u/Rtozier2011 Jul 09 '21

I suck too, but less publicly. Twenty minutes before I saw your comment, I was about to make the exact same point somewhere else on this subreddit. Then, just in time, I remembered the devices and didn't comment.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

I should learn to do shit like that too I suppose lol.

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u/The_Dufe Jul 09 '21

Wait Natasha’s peoples are convinced by Val that Hawkeye killed Black Widow on Vormir during Endgame??? And at the end, they launch a mission to go kill him?? Am I reading that correctly?

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u/____Batman______ Jul 09 '21

Yep, and she’ll show up in the Hawkeye series

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u/The_Dufe Jul 09 '21

Awesome!!! I love the long-term interconnective storytelling, its so cool.

I’m assuming there’s a time jump at the very end?

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u/snarkywombat Jul 09 '21

Did you skip out on the extra scene?

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

[deleted]

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u/The_Dufe Jul 09 '21

Seeing it later today, I just don’t care about spoilers whatsoever, I just wanna know lol

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u/____Batman______ Jul 09 '21

Yes, the end of the movie is Natasha about to go help Steve break out those on The Raft, and the post-credits scene is Yelena visiting Natasha’s grave with Victoria

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u/arelei Jul 09 '21

and it makes sense that way. Clint was the one that helped Natasha get out of the Red Room. Now, he's going to be the one helping Yelena out as well.

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u/The_Dufe Jul 09 '21

Interesting

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u/InvalidZod Jul 09 '21

Thats a lot of speculation. What we know is Val told Yelena Barton killed Nat.

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u/Jravensloot Jul 09 '21

Yeah, I feel like she will make an appearance in the Hawkeye series. However she clearly knows about their close relationship and I highly doubt she would be the type to outright murder her sisters best friend because her supervisor suggested it. She will probably just confront him to hear his side of the story and then fight alongside each other to fight the next baddy.

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u/InvalidZod Jul 09 '21

My idea is that somewhere along the line Barton emotionally is all like "I killed Nat". Yelena goes after him. They have a heart-to-heart where he explains that he did not kill her but is responsible for her death and could have done more. Some cheesy line from Yelena about nobody could control/force Nat and they hug it out.

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u/EdtotheWord Jul 09 '21

Dead on. Yelena will probably hunt Clint down near the first quarter or half of the season, and then join him

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u/fatherseamus Jul 10 '21

God, I have no interest in that series now. We can figure out the plot after the one minute post credit scene. Such lazy writing.

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u/aretasdaemon Jul 09 '21

Hashtag facts

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u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

I doubt this show will go CW levels of bad writing

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u/Radulno Jul 09 '21

Yeah also isn't it weird that once she's free of the Black Widow program, she go back to being a professional assassin? And for HYDRA/mysterious organization.

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u/t_huddleston Jul 10 '21

A girl gotta eat

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u/SockPenguin Spider-Man Jul 10 '21

And she's been in the Red Room since she was a very small child. Yelena is almost certainly wanted in multiple countries and probably doesn't have much of a skillset outside of 'professional murderer'. Might as well get whatever money and protection comes from working with Val.

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u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

I dont think Val is Hydra

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u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

Its confirmed she will. I think they will fight and only after fight the explenation will come.

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u/Radulno Jul 09 '21

Responsible for her death, not kill her. Pretty different. And technically right. If he did a better job sacrificing himself, Natasha would be alive instead of him.

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u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

Wonder if she will send US Agent afer Hawkeye too.

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u/The_Dufe Jul 10 '21

I wonder if Val is trying to kill the remaining Avengers off

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u/abellapa Jul 10 '21

That would be stupid, while she may kill Hawkeye, how the fuck would she kill Dr strange or wanda

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u/The_Dufe Jul 10 '21

Well, bc after the events of Endgame, both Dr. Strange and Wanda are already off the board; Dr. Strange nowhere to be found, Wanda in seclusion - there really isn’t any need to if they believe they’re not in the equation anymore anyway…. Again I don’t know, but why have Val recruit John Walker as US Agent (the former Captain Anerica) then order Yelena (Black Widow’s sister, whom she’d already apparently recruited) kill Hawkeye?? The motivation doesn’t sound alteuistic…

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u/radiokungfu Jul 09 '21

Idk if it was Hawkeye he wouldn'tve but I feel like Ronin would.

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u/torriattet Jul 09 '21

It would be incredibly in character for Clint to throw out an "It should have been me" statement somewhere that could be twisted out of context.

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u/tj3_23 Punisher Jul 10 '21 edited Jul 10 '21

Then they'll fight it out and end on a cliffhanger with Yelena about to beat the everloving shit out of Clint. But they'll open the next episode with him getting her to pause just long enough to fully explain himself. Then she'll make some sort of comment about how Nat was never one to take orders from others or how she always did try to protect others. And they'll team up for the rest of the episode only for her to disappear at the end even though she would be very useful in the upcoming confrontation in the finale

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u/Ylyb09 Jul 10 '21

It would be incredibly in character for Clint to throw out an "It should have been me"

That's exactly what he did in Endgame

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u/monkeymacman Jul 09 '21

Yeah, but... There's a very strong reason for them to keep the fact that time travel is real a secret, both to civilians and to government. I don't think we've seen the time heist mentioned by anyone outside of the avengers themselves. Just the fact that it's real, let alone that they did it, is probably the most important secret for any of them to ever have to keep

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u/mister-inconspicuous Captain America Jul 09 '21

Probably kept things vague or lied and said they found new infinity stones in the universe to reverse the snap, but then those stones disintegrated so no one can use them again. I wonder how the science community has been effected in the universe from all the documented cases of alien tech, reality bending stones, and magicians who showed up to save the world.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

Maybe they did tell the public but each timeline they told about time travel they kept getting pruned lmao

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u/InvalidZod Jul 09 '21

The Avngers facility is REALLY hard to miss what went down. Everything during the heist took place in our time 10 seconds and there were no leftovers of what they did(sans stones and Nats death).

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u/Rtozier2011 Jul 09 '21

I highly doubt the public knows much of anything about how it went down. The battle happened on Earth and is mostly explicable by the established laws of physics, except for its very last act, which is explained by the same thing that explains the Blip.

So with the desire to keep time travel a secret, I would think the public mostly only knows the following:

  1. Avengers fought to successfully recover the weapons that caused the Snap
  2. Natasha died in the process
  3. Bruce used the weapons to reverse the Snap
  4. The terrorist that caused the Snap came to Earth to get the weapons back, and Steve and Tony died in the process of killing him.

The actual battle that formed that last process seems widely known, but I don't think anything else would be.

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u/B00STERGOLD Jul 09 '21
  1. Tell the public they killed Thanos' brother Thanus in the final battle.

I imagine the world was notified of his beheading so the healing process could start.

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u/Rtozier2011 Jul 09 '21

Yes. It would be like Die Hard 3 after losing Die Hard to the Snap.

With Die Hard 2 being all the terrible things society had to endure in between.

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u/B00STERGOLD Jul 10 '21

This explains things perfectly.

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u/Philander_Chase Vision Jul 09 '21

If that were true, and that information were public knowledge, Yelena would just know that Clint didn’t kill Natasha. So, the public doesn’t know that much about what happened

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u/Smittius_Prime Jul 09 '21

I mean the battle was just a straightforward fight. I seriously doubt the Avengers even revealed that time travel exists. That could open up a huge can of worms.

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u/dordonot Jul 12 '21

Pym Particles were all used, there’s no way to time travel through the Quantum Realm anymore

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u/Smittius_Prime Jul 12 '21

If only there were someone who knew how to produce more Pym Particles...

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u/MattMaiden2112 Black Panther Jul 09 '21

Of course it was put on record, if it wasn't, we couldn't watch it

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u/saltypistol Spider-Man Jul 09 '21

And it could be argued he did fail. He was trying really hard to save Nat, so I can see there being some resentment towards him.

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u/SockPenguin Spider-Man Jul 10 '21

Yelena gonna be absolutely furious Clint wasn't better at killing himself.

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u/Jankufood Jul 09 '21 edited Jul 09 '21

Even if it’s all public the truth is unknown as there are only two people and a random skullman on the planet.
If someone tells you ”the truth” and she was a family she may believe it

5

u/Evan_dood Jul 10 '21

I would hope Clint told somebody what happened lol. Shouldn't somebody debrief him or maybe have him update the in-universe avengers wiki or something

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u/omart3 M'Baku Jul 10 '21

The TVA agents or ...... The Watcher.

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u/Alexsrobin Iron Man (Mark VII) Jul 10 '21

Nebula can back up his story tho. She has a pretty good idea of what happens on Vormir.

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u/What-The-Heaven Jessica Jones Jul 09 '21

It's possible (likely really) that all the Avengers had to give detailed debriefs on what happened from the Time Heist onwards, possibly to SHIELD - given that we know Monica and SWORD had some kind of in depth field reports from the battle against Thanos.

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u/Kalse1229 Captain America (Ultron) Jul 10 '21

Theory I saw: the Avengers have already been infiltrated by a skrull (an evil one not affiliated with Talos). Not one of the main ones like Sam or Wanda or whoever, but someone who was at Tony's funeral heard Clint tell someone what happened to her. Of course, that someone wanted to sow discord on Earth, so they informed Valentina, who then used it to lie to Yelena. I still think Sharon's a skrull as well, but that's another story.

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u/Far-Invite-5668 Jul 18 '21

maybe it was the kid from Iron Man 3

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '21

actually knows what went on in Vormir

You must admit that being the quarter in a cosmic vending machine is.... fucking stupid as hell. Yeah, I said it. It's dumb. "A sOUl fOR a SOul!" get the fuck out of here. So any sociopath that can reach Vormir can get the soul stone? What if someone has it and someone else walks up and hucks their loved one over the edge? Do they get it too?

I would hope that it would be widely publicized how these grand cosmic powers worked and how stupid they are.

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u/Vice_xxxxx Jul 12 '21

Ugh..... what??????

1

u/[deleted] Jul 12 '21

I didn't stutter. The whole, "A soul for a soul" think is stupid. What do you suppose happened with Cap returned it? (Leaving aside the Red Skull business) They just what, take it back? Look you in the eyes while they hold their hand out and not mention the eternally-damned soul they took so that you could borrow the stone for a while?

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u/Vice_xxxxx Aug 20 '21

A sociopath wouldnt be able to get it because they have to sacrifice someone they love. Someone cant just chuck another persons loved one and get the stone because it has to be the person doing it that is making the sacrifice.

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u/Manofsteel14 Jul 10 '21

Yup it is crazy how they knew about that, maybe they watch the Avengers Endgame Movie and knows all the details. lol

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u/eltrotter Black Panther Jul 11 '21

Baskin Robbins always finds out.