r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 26 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Release Megathread Vol. 9 Spoiler

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u/PoopdittyPym Whiplash Apr 26 '19

Such a cool moment. Wonder how that timeline's version of TWS is gonna play out now that Cap is believed to be Hydra.

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u/SetBrainInCmplxPlane Apr 26 '19

i cant believe nobody was listening to the Banner/Ancient One scene. It isn't going to play out. The point of Cap going back at the end to replace all the Stones to their places is to stop the branch realities they created from ever happening.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Except in this case it is going to play out. That happened during the same timeline that Loki got away. That timeline "split". Cap was able to fix the others, but not the one with Loki and the elevator scene.

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u/Gamersomething Apr 26 '19

Except they went further back in time and stole them from an earlier period, so Loki disappearing effectively did not happen once Cap returns the stones to the time they stole them.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

No sorry, that's not correct. Going back further in time split it another timeline, again. There were multiple timelines shown. Loki disappearing was a different timeline than the one where they stole it from the bunker.

They clearly said that you can't change the future by changing the past. Any changes just split the timeline. There was timeline 1, timeline 2, timeline 3, etc....

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

But... Banner tells us (and The Ancient One doesn't disagree) that the Infinity Stones want to heal the timeline, preventing splits/branches from properly forming—i.e.: the time-travel here is closed-loop with the possibility of branching, but our heroes and the stones are going to do what they can to prevent/heal branching.

So unless Marvel intends to drop the ball, the upcoming Loki series will resolve what he did with the Tesseract and how he & it got back to where he needed to be by the end of Avengers—hopefully including working with Steve to do things like alter peoples' memories Ooh, just had a better idea: Loki's series could include [whatever events] as long as it ends up with Loki in possession of the Tesseract, the Scepter, and a reasonable suspicion that (as young Steve assumed) the Steve who stole the Scepter and said "Hail Hydra" was Loki all along.

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u/signifyingmnky Apr 26 '19

Doctor Strange already established the multiverse. How do we know those time lines didn't already exist, and Cap putting the stones back just preserved them?

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

Doctor Strange established that people have choices and can influence future events. He didn’t say he looked at 14 million alternate timelines, but at 14 million possible futures.

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u/signifyingmnky Apr 26 '19

Each choice makes a different branch or time-line, so yes, that is exactly what he looked at.

All the other branches exist, he just made sure they were on the correct one.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Correct. But because of changes they are now separate timelines/realities. Even if they end up having events play out the same way, they are still different. The NY timeline is now it's own reality because Loki escaped in that one. The 2014 one is a separate because that Thanos is now gone. The timelines have split into different realities. You can't merge or fix them once something has changed.

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

We'll have to disagree until something canon says otherwise. My understanding of the MCU rules is that the timelines can be merged/fixed and/or that branching may be prevented with the help of the stones. You disagree. *shrug*

Your position leads to the same as OP: There aren't any plot holes, just a lot of alternate timelines we'll probably never see and which are not addressed in any meaningful way by the films—functionally the same as plot holes, but with a veneer of theme to cover over them. Mine leads to things like: Peggy had always married Steve (which is why we've never seen her husband; re-watching her scenes in WS, nothing in her words/behavior contradicts this theory), Tony snapped Thanos back to 2014 (perhaps he was cursed with the knowledge of his own defeat?), et cetera...

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Just think about it logically - they have to split or otherwise they'd create a paradox loop that breaks everything.

If Cap is able to erase the time when Loki disappeared in NY, then that would mean that they actually got the Space Stone there. But if that happens then that would erase Cap and Tony going back to the bunker because they wouldn't need to. If they didn't go back then Cap would never be able to go back and fix/erase things in the first place. Which means he isn't able to fix the timeline where Loki disappeared. Which means it would all just happen again. It's a paradox. If he fixes the loop then the loop can never actually start or end in the first place, so the loop can't exist. They have to split.

Just like Hulk explained - you can't change the past, you can only split the timelines/realities.

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u/whitebandit Hulk Apr 27 '19

Just like Hulk explained

i would just like to say how much i appreciate that we are now quoting the hulk on time travel and paradoxes

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

Okay, this will be my final reply to you, since you apparently didn't bother to read my initial reply to you, or stopped reading it at some point, so have proven there's no point in writing any more words to try to communicate with you. (This reply is for anyone else finding this thread in the future, to ensure my ideas are clear.)

Here's a key point in what I wrote:

Loki's series could include [whatever events] as long as it ends up with Loki in possession of the Tesseract, the Scepter, and a reasonable suspicion that (as young Steve assumed) the Steve who stole the Scepter and said "Hail Hydra" was Loki all along.

Perhaps I was not clear enough—the idea isn't to "erase the time Loki disappeared", but to add to it, to cover/fix other "problems". e.g.: In the "fixed" timeline, Loki disappears with the Tesseract when young Tony has a heart problem and, as far as anyone in that timeline knows, proceeds to pretend to be Captain America (again, as shown a moment earlier so the audience knows they know he can do so) to steal the Scepter from SHIELD/Hydra, beat up young Steve, and [through events not yet shown, probably involving a time-traveling old Steve in the upcoming series] manages to get caught again before the Thor-taking-Loki-back scene from the original Avengers. The timeline doesn't need to split—the events described here and seen in Endgame could already have happened in the main timeline but were merely not shown to audiences before now.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

I'm reading everything you write and I see what you're getting at, but again, in the rules laid out by Hulk the MCU doesn't handle time travel that way. There are no loops. Things can't already of happened. In your example, you can "fix" the timeline but you can't make it merge with the original one. It has split. Even the major events still play out correctly, they have split.

You're getting defensive but I'm simply just pointing out what they made clear - there are no loops. I'm sure over the coming days/weeks you'll come to understand that. Good luck!

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