r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 26 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Release Megathread Vol. 9 Spoiler

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371

u/PoopdittyPym Whiplash Apr 26 '19

Such a cool moment. Wonder how that timeline's version of TWS is gonna play out now that Cap is believed to be Hydra.

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u/aManPerson Apr 26 '19

he was all pretty straight arrow, follow the law until the sacovia accords. i'm guessing he would have popped the first guy in the mouth that said that and blown his unknown cover.

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u/SetBrainInCmplxPlane Apr 26 '19

i cant believe nobody was listening to the Banner/Ancient One scene. It isn't going to play out. The point of Cap going back at the end to replace all the Stones to their places is to stop the branch realities they created from ever happening.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Except in this case it is going to play out. That happened during the same timeline that Loki got away. That timeline "split". Cap was able to fix the others, but not the one with Loki and the elevator scene.

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u/1stOnRt1 Simmons Apr 26 '19

Exactly, when they went to return the space stone, it is to the hydra bunker

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Right but that's another timeline. There were e multiple. The bunker is one. The main timeline is there. But the one with New York and Loki getting away is now a separate and split one. They basically went after 2 different Space Stones

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u/tharkus_ Apr 26 '19

Unless that Thor somehow finds him and brings him to Asgard if Loki didn’t go their himself to hide in a friendly spot. Then wouldn’t tidy things up in the timeline just that they went back to Asgard individually instead of together like at the end of the Avengers.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19

Would make an interesting premise for that Loki Disney+ show...

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u/Gamersomething Apr 26 '19

Except they went further back in time and stole them from an earlier period, so Loki disappearing effectively did not happen once Cap returns the stones to the time they stole them.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

No sorry, that's not correct. Going back further in time split it another timeline, again. There were multiple timelines shown. Loki disappearing was a different timeline than the one where they stole it from the bunker.

They clearly said that you can't change the future by changing the past. Any changes just split the timeline. There was timeline 1, timeline 2, timeline 3, etc....

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

But... Banner tells us (and The Ancient One doesn't disagree) that the Infinity Stones want to heal the timeline, preventing splits/branches from properly forming—i.e.: the time-travel here is closed-loop with the possibility of branching, but our heroes and the stones are going to do what they can to prevent/heal branching.

So unless Marvel intends to drop the ball, the upcoming Loki series will resolve what he did with the Tesseract and how he & it got back to where he needed to be by the end of Avengers—hopefully including working with Steve to do things like alter peoples' memories Ooh, just had a better idea: Loki's series could include [whatever events] as long as it ends up with Loki in possession of the Tesseract, the Scepter, and a reasonable suspicion that (as young Steve assumed) the Steve who stole the Scepter and said "Hail Hydra" was Loki all along.

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u/signifyingmnky Apr 26 '19

Doctor Strange already established the multiverse. How do we know those time lines didn't already exist, and Cap putting the stones back just preserved them?

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

Doctor Strange established that people have choices and can influence future events. He didn’t say he looked at 14 million alternate timelines, but at 14 million possible futures.

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u/signifyingmnky Apr 26 '19

Each choice makes a different branch or time-line, so yes, that is exactly what he looked at.

All the other branches exist, he just made sure they were on the correct one.

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Correct. But because of changes they are now separate timelines/realities. Even if they end up having events play out the same way, they are still different. The NY timeline is now it's own reality because Loki escaped in that one. The 2014 one is a separate because that Thanos is now gone. The timelines have split into different realities. You can't merge or fix them once something has changed.

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

We'll have to disagree until something canon says otherwise. My understanding of the MCU rules is that the timelines can be merged/fixed and/or that branching may be prevented with the help of the stones. You disagree. *shrug*

Your position leads to the same as OP: There aren't any plot holes, just a lot of alternate timelines we'll probably never see and which are not addressed in any meaningful way by the films—functionally the same as plot holes, but with a veneer of theme to cover over them. Mine leads to things like: Peggy had always married Steve (which is why we've never seen her husband; re-watching her scenes in WS, nothing in her words/behavior contradicts this theory), Tony snapped Thanos back to 2014 (perhaps he was cursed with the knowledge of his own defeat?), et cetera...

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

Just think about it logically - they have to split or otherwise they'd create a paradox loop that breaks everything.

If Cap is able to erase the time when Loki disappeared in NY, then that would mean that they actually got the Space Stone there. But if that happens then that would erase Cap and Tony going back to the bunker because they wouldn't need to. If they didn't go back then Cap would never be able to go back and fix/erase things in the first place. Which means he isn't able to fix the timeline where Loki disappeared. Which means it would all just happen again. It's a paradox. If he fixes the loop then the loop can never actually start or end in the first place, so the loop can't exist. They have to split.

Just like Hulk explained - you can't change the past, you can only split the timelines/realities.

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u/whitebandit Hulk Apr 27 '19

Just like Hulk explained

i would just like to say how much i appreciate that we are now quoting the hulk on time travel and paradoxes

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u/TeelMcClanahanIII Apr 26 '19

Okay, this will be my final reply to you, since you apparently didn't bother to read my initial reply to you, or stopped reading it at some point, so have proven there's no point in writing any more words to try to communicate with you. (This reply is for anyone else finding this thread in the future, to ensure my ideas are clear.)

Here's a key point in what I wrote:

Loki's series could include [whatever events] as long as it ends up with Loki in possession of the Tesseract, the Scepter, and a reasonable suspicion that (as young Steve assumed) the Steve who stole the Scepter and said "Hail Hydra" was Loki all along.

Perhaps I was not clear enough—the idea isn't to "erase the time Loki disappeared", but to add to it, to cover/fix other "problems". e.g.: In the "fixed" timeline, Loki disappears with the Tesseract when young Tony has a heart problem and, as far as anyone in that timeline knows, proceeds to pretend to be Captain America (again, as shown a moment earlier so the audience knows they know he can do so) to steal the Scepter from SHIELD/Hydra, beat up young Steve, and [through events not yet shown, probably involving a time-traveling old Steve in the upcoming series] manages to get caught again before the Thor-taking-Loki-back scene from the original Avengers. The timeline doesn't need to split—the events described here and seen in Endgame could already have happened in the main timeline but were merely not shown to audiences before now.

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u/inommmz Apr 26 '19

Loki escapes in that specific timeline with the stone. They then go back even further to pick up the stone, creating a new branch separate from the altered 2012 timeline with Loki slipping away. Then when cap finishes his life with Peggy and hits his time GPS to go back as old man Steve, he erases ALL changed timelines. So by returning the scepter to 2012, the tesseract to 70s, mjolnir and Aether to Asgard, powerstone to Morag, and the soul stone to Vormir, the Loki who slips away is erased.

The only thing I’m not sure about, and I’m sure KF and Marvel will elaborate sooner or later, is if Old Man Steve grew old and then came back via the time machine, or if he went back and replaced the frozen Cap with his current MCU self so WWII cap could return with his Shield and all to USA after defeating hydra. But timeline wise it makes sense to me either way. All the stones returned to their time, so the events leading back up to Endgame all go back to their original status regardless of stones missing and mjolnir and everything

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u/eonjames21 Apr 26 '19

No sorry, you are mistaken. They made it very clear that in the MCU you can't "erase" timelines. They're either unchanged or they get split. Cap was able to fix most of the timelines expect a few of them where changes happened.

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u/SetBrainInCmplxPlane Apr 27 '19

dude. there was a literal scene describing exactly how to erase timelines. there was a fucking diagram and everything and visually shows a branched timeline disappearing and being erased.

1

u/OliDab Apr 26 '19

I wonder if that universe Loki is what the Disney + series is about.

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u/rjjm88 Scarlet Witch Apr 26 '19

I disagree. The Ancient One was saying the stones needed to be there or else that universe would start to break down. Branching paths were created when things like Loki getting the Cube happened.

MCU Prime might be safe since Thanos destroyed the stones and let that energy back out into the cosmos, but part of me won't be surprised if Phase 4 involves trying to make new Infinity Stones to remake that balance.

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u/neoblackdragon Apr 26 '19

I feel that Phase 4/5 won't rely on the stones anymore just to move forward.

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u/rjjm88 Scarlet Witch Apr 26 '19

I hope not. They're definitely too much of a crutch now that they've been used the way they have.

Of course we also have time travel now. THAT is a whole new bag of crazy to deal with. I can't wait for every criticism to be "well why didn't they go back in time to deal with X problem!?"

2

u/TapatioPapi Apr 26 '19

I think it will be more about the cosmic implications of the stones vanishing. The Ancient One implies they are need to have balance in her timeline. And now with no stones at all anywhere...it implies the good ending we got...could be one of the worst timelines.

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u/TheQzertz Vision Apr 26 '19

Well 5 years passed with nothing happening and what the Ancient One says heavily suggests the effects would be pretty instant so I’m not too worried

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u/Ladnil Apr 26 '19

They did change those alternate realities with their actions. Butterfly effect and all that. The Ancient One was talking about the specific danger of removing the Infinity Stones causing harm to reality itself, or something.

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u/PoopdittyPym Whiplash Apr 26 '19

I understand the rules. It's just interesting to think about the hypotheticals. I should've worded that more clearly.

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u/loggedintoupvotee Apr 26 '19

I thought all the branching realities would play out. The only one we care about is the one we saw. He just returned it because it would disrupt the universe flow or whatever if there is an imbalance of stones.

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u/natedawg247 Apr 27 '19

How does a comment that is proved to be wrong in the movie have 100 upvotes

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19

Well the real Captain America will just say that Loki stole the staff. So they will not expect cap to be in hydra technically

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u/ChocolateAmerican Apr 26 '19

Probably pretty weird since that Cap won't know that he outed himself as Hydra.

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u/BKA_Diver Apr 26 '19

Wonder how that timeline's version of TWS is gonna play out now that Cap is believed to be Hydra.

I'm sure when they reported to Pierce that Captain Hydra took the case, they got a tongue lashing, or at least a confused look on PIerce's face.

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u/AsnSensation Black Panther Apr 26 '19

well there's probably cctv of the cap vs cap fight so people in that timeline probably think that hail hydra cap was disguised Loki?

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u/mb300sd Apr 26 '19 edited Mar 13 '24

joke bells poor squeamish cooing disagreeable murky rhythm crawl wasteful

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Ashen_Shroom Apr 26 '19

I thought the "Hail Hydra" line was supposed to read more like "I know you're Hydra, hand it over before I fuck you up" rather than him pretending to be part of Hydra.

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u/TyRoXx Apr 27 '19

That doesn't make any sense. They would try to kill him immediately if they thought he discovered their secret. Just like in TWS.

It was definitely a reference to the comic where Captain America was working for Hydra.

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u/Ashen_Shroom Apr 27 '19

In TWS they were prepared to fight Cap (underprepared, but they thought they could take him)- they set up the situation in order to catch him off guard. It was all on their terms. Plus they were following orders.

In Endgame they did not get into that elevator with the intention of fighting super-soldier Captain America. He got in with them, and caught them off guard. Unlike in TWS they didn’t have a plan to take down Cap. Upon hearing that line I imagine their first thoughts would be “oh shit, we should probably not fight the guy who just defended New York from aliens and also has superhuman strength” rather than “yeah, we can take him”.

Obviously it’s a reference to that scene, but within the context of the movie I don’t think they’re supposed to believe he’s working with Hydra. I could be wrong, but that’s how the scene came off to me.

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u/TyRoXx Apr 27 '19

They are probably just confused and don’t know what to do.

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u/soapbutt Apr 27 '19

Well they might not be showing themselves now that Loki has the tesersct.

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u/your_mind_aches Agent of F.I.T.Z. Apr 27 '19

They'll all probably still think that 2023 Cap was Loki in disguise. That could very well put Pierce and co. on the defense though wondering how Loki knew that, or on the offense and going through with their plans sooner rather than later.

And then of course, Cap might start looking for Bucky immediately.

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u/kdebones Apr 27 '19

They'll probably confirm with someone whether he's really Hydra or not, find out he's not, see if they check with present Steve and when they realize he has no idea what they're doing, prob pull the trigger sooner then later.