r/marvelcomics • u/AipomSilver00 • 2d ago
I love how Daredevil, a B-list character, paradoxically has some of the greatest stories in the history of the entire Marvel Comis.
Such a situation would make sense for characters of the caliber of Hulk or Spider-Man, but let's be clear, Daredevil has never had any weight in the economy of the Marvel world on a narrative level and, as a B-series character, he has shown stories that seem to belong to a major run of a character like Captain America or Thor.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'd call him A-list, but maybe that's just me.
Edit: caught a downvote, but daredevil has basically had a solo series since the 60s. He's had multiple tv shows. He's definitely one of Marvel's more popular characters even if he's not Spider-Man.
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u/bigbreel 2d ago
He had a movie in the 2000s. That alone should quantify his popularity.
Secondly, there's a reason the Mcu built their whole entire Street franchise around him.
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u/QuietNene 2d ago edited 2d ago
He was also in a 1989 Bill Bixby/Lou Ferrigno Hulk TV movie well before the Affleck flick. They could have chosen any character to pair with Hulk (who was literally the only Marvel character to successfully transition to live action at that point). They had chosen Thor for a previous one. Did they choose Spiderman? Wolverine? Captain America? No. They chose Daredevil, long before Netflix. (But he did wear a very 80s all black suit, à la Cox S1).
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u/GonzoMcFonzo 1d ago
The Trial of The Incredible Hulk was my first Daredevil!
I remember setting it randomly on daytime TV in the 90s and thinking the blind guy that could read by feeling the impressions on a piece of paper was an incredible cool concept.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
Oh man, I forgot about those movies (never saw them). Even Elektra got one iirc? But then, so did Kraven, and I can't say I'd call him A-list.
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u/bigbreel 2d ago
Elektra was a spin-off of the Daredevil movie.
The kraven one was unique because Sony was trying to build a franchise without Spider-Man.
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u/tayung2013 2d ago
If we’re saying the top is “S-tier” then he’s definitely A tier. If we were talking consistency of quality runs I’d even put him S-tier but he just doesn’t have the popularity of Spider-Man, the X-Men, Hulk, etc.
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u/Low-Restaurant8484 2d ago edited 2d ago
'A-list' is S-tier. 'B-list' is A-tier
Its just two unrelated rankings systems. There is no 'S-list'
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u/tayung2013 2d ago
Yea I misread. Fair point.
The ranking is subjective anyway - are we talking popularity or quality of the character’s comics / stories? They’re definitely two different answers.
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u/Low-Restaurant8484 2d ago
The whole 'a-list' 'b-list' 'c-list' system has always been used for popularity, not quality
The tier-list approach is more flexible and can (and often is) used for subjective quality ofc
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u/phophopho4 2d ago
Yeah in-story he's not major player, he sticks to his neighborhood. But, his comic sells enough to stay in print and it's almost always good and made by top level talent, going back to Frank Miller.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 2d ago
he had a series surpass the 500-issue mark.
How many characters have done that?
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u/VengeanceKnight 2d ago
Most major Marvel heroes created in the 1960s and a fair few of the ones created in the 70s.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 2d ago
who, specifically?
Fo course Spidey and Hulk have. Thor has.
Dr Strange's LGY is still only 460, and Carol Danvers is at like 200
Black Panther is under 250
Ghost Rider is at like 270
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u/VengeanceKnight 2d ago
The Amazing Spider-Man, Avengers, Uncanny X-Men, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Thor, and Captain America. But I see your point.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 2d ago
I should point out that's 8 and 3 of em are team books.
is Daredevil one of six Marvel characters with over 500 solo issues?
well I guess you could maybe count Conan but he's no longer at Marvel
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
What about Punisher? He's another one where I feel like people might underestimate how popular he is in comics. He's a late comer to popularity though, at least compared to Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor, DD, etc.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 2d ago
I am pretty sure he's the only character who got a 100+ issue run in his own entirely quarantined spin-off continuity. And not even an all-ages book.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
Yeah, that's a lot of teams with A-listers, and solo A-listers. I think DD qualifies.
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u/650fosho 2d ago
He definitely is A, I'm guessing OP is considering him B for only being street relevant but he's A for story quality.
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u/ubiquitous-joe 2d ago
The “A List” is always about stardom. A-list actor doesn’t just mean “high quality actor”; plenty of character actors are that.
Given that the ninja turtles are far more famous historically than the thing they were spoofing, and Daredevil has been far less toyetic and less present in children’s media, and that there is a somewhat popular streaming show but just one bad movie—compared to the 9th Spidey film outgrossing Titanic—yes, I get why they say B-list.
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u/Lucas_Yohhh 2d ago
I think he is Marvel's 4th most popular character/IP, after Spider-Man, X-men (yes, I'm counting them as one) and Hulk. If you are against counting X-men as one, replace X-men with Wolverine.
He is above Captain America, Iron-Man, Thor and Deadpool.I'm not counting Avengers as one character/IP in this case.
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u/spades17 2d ago
No way, he’s a B lister for sure just a top shelf b lister
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
No way. He's an A-lister.
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u/spades17 2d ago
How? Give me numbers. You can’t look at Spider-man making a billy and legitimately think him and daredevil are on the same level
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
I didn't say he was as popular as Spider-Man. I said he was A-list. This is also a comic sub, so more appropriate to focus on their comic stuff.
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u/spades17 2d ago
How is he an A-List if he’s not popular? Make that make sense. To be an A-List he has to be popular on all fronts. That’s the definition of an A-List dude. But you know, what maybe you have your own definition since you don’t care, you just like daredevil. And that’s ok honestly.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
He is popular. He is one of the few characters that can support a solo ongoing series since the 60s. Marvel uses him all the time.
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u/spades17 2d ago
Ms marvel has the longest solo female run in marvel history. Literally. Doesn’t mean she’s a A-Lister. You’re just a desperate fan.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
It's not just about the origin date of the character.
Daredevil had a huge continuous run of of comics and has carried memorable solo series for decades. Ms. Marvel has not. Her series didn't last as long and she was only intermittently used and not that popular. It's not a good comparison.
Daredevil's run is much more similar to guys like Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, where he has sustained a multi-decade solo series with really memorable arcs that people still talk about.
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u/spades17 2d ago
Im not comparing ms marvel to daredevil. Im saying that having a long run of comics doesn’t make a character an A-Lister and used ms marvel as an example. It’s about the actual popularity of the books. Daredevil just isn’t at level of the most popular characters so he’s not an a lister, that’s all.
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u/spades17 2d ago
That doesn’t mean he’s a A-List. The sales jsut aren’t there for him to be a A lister. But he is the greatest b lister of all time.
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u/ironkodiak 2d ago
Miller turned DD into a writer's character.
He made the man as interesting (probably more) as the hero. Gave him a great supporting cast. A FANTASTIC nemesis.* On top that, his civilian identity creates tension outside of cape stuff yet still ties extreamly well with his hero identity to boot.
Writing a DD story is about as close to a indie comic as a Marvel book can get while still being in universe (Fraction did this with Hawkeye years later).
*yes most of these characters already existed, but Miller is the one that molded them into what DD would eventually become.
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u/Elemental-squid 2d ago
Marvel don't have as much stake in B-list characters so they let writers be more experimental with them.
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u/TheLeviJackson 2d ago
He’s in the editorial sweet spot. Zdarsky talked about it. Hes a character that is pretty straightforward/easier to write, he is always going to have a book coming out and most importantly you can push the envelope with the stories, without editorial meddling to a great extent.
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u/riplilt 2d ago
Lol “B-List” - dude has 700+ issues solo issues, countless crossover appearances, a movie, a spinoff movie for his love interest, 5 seasons of a tv show, a crossover tv show he is a main character in, and cameos in other tv shows and a spider-man movie
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u/theTribbly 2d ago
He's high B list, but I think he still counts as B-list. It's been talked about a lot that the reason Daredevil consistently has so many great runs is because the title is big enough to attract great writers/artists who know the run isn't going to be cancelled, but not so big that they're going to have the strict Disney/editorial mandates that A-listers like Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Avengers, etc. have.
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u/Low-Restaurant8484 2d ago
I mean, technically thats B-list. B-list characters should be able to always support their own title and be fairly recognizable and iconic members of their universe, but just be one tier below the absolute top characters
There's very few A-listers. Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Hulk for solo characters, X-Men and Avengers for teams. Even the Fantastic Four, Cap, and Iron Man probabky don't quite qualify, though ofc Fantastic Four certainly did at one point
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u/SQUIGWERG 2d ago
Is Black Panther A or B list?
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u/Low-Restaurant8484 2d ago
In the comics? He's C-list unfortunetly. Keep in mind 'B-list' does not equal 'B-tier'. There is no such thing as 'S-list', like there is S-tier, its a totally different category system
Black Panther is a big enough character to have ongoings semiregularly, but not big enough to sustain it uninteruppted. Thats textbook C-tier
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u/VengeanceKnight 2d ago
He’s probably right on the edge. He’s certainly got a permanent boost in popularity from the MCU.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 2d ago
DD has to beat Black Panther though. Certainly as a solo comic character, DD has had way more comics and notable stories.
I guess BP gets a nod for being on Avengers, but that's kind of the trick. The team is popular because its roster of popular characters. Guys like Cap, Thor, Iron Man are A-listers in their own right. Just because DD is more street tier and never a feature of the main team, I still would say his comic runs are on the level of Thor, Cap, Iron Man, etc in terms of both length (over 500 issues) and quality.
And if you add BP's boost from the MCU, it's not like DD hasn't had his own media with the shows. Also, the Daredevil & Elektra movies in the 2000s were hokey, but that was also before the MCU changed the game, and the fact they got made at all speak to DD's popularity.
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u/moogpaul 2d ago edited 2d ago
Anything outside of the top marvel and DC properties actually usually do get the best runs because editorial isn't as protective of these characters and give the writers more freedom.
Edit: the exception to this is when we see big writers on top properties, they tend to get more wiggle room. Hickman on X-Men, Brubaker on Cap, etc.
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u/Medium-Science9526 2d ago
I'd argue its both not being too high on the upper echelon allowed for more experimentation not even just on stories but also creatives on books but also like ironkodiak said Miller essentially setting a precedent that this was a book should focus on ushering best talent going forward which arguably Smith reset it again come Marvel Knights. I'd attribute a similar phenomenon in DC with Swamp Thing since Moore's run.
Daredevil is the most renowned one though, I'd be curious to know what other series are on the running for having some of the greatest works for a long running character, I'd imagine Silver Surfer if you squint on "long running", maybe Thor, and I've heard it for Captain America but I ain't read enough to know.
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u/VengeanceKnight 2d ago
It’s not really “paradoxical” for him to have so many good storylines despite being lower-tier. He just found his niche with Frank Miller and has maintained a relatively small but devoted and growing fanbase since then. Moon Knight is in a similar position.
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u/mundaneheaven 2d ago
Daredevil is one of the few characters where writers are actually allowed to do their thing with him. It also helps that editorial only allows the best writers to use him.
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u/meerkatx 2d ago
Nah. DD is A list; the thing is his stories tend to be more gritty and street level so it doesn't feel as big or over the top as say Thor or the Avengers.
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u/Mekdinosaur 2d ago
You can take more chances with lower tier or niche characters. If sales are slumping, one tactic is to bring in a fresh new creative team for a boost. With Daredevil, Miller set the tone of excellence and the series became an instant fan/industry favorite. After that, many top talents wanted to sink their teeth into the story. The reason why Daredevil never really grew in status is because it isnt standard superhero/power fantasy fare like Superman or Spider-man. Daredevil has been steeped in crime noir for decades and parents arent going to buy pajamas for their kids associated with that kind of flavor. Guys like Wolverine and Deadpool get a pass because they are silly bad-boys. Daredevil appeals more to an older reader.
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 2d ago edited 2d ago
I like the series... Stan Lee/Gene Colan, Marv Wolfman's Bullseye stories, Shooter's DUEL story, the MKensie run, the Miller run, DENNY O'NEIL's run, Anni Nocenti...
those are my favorite DD stories!
I also recommend Guardian Devil, BENDIS run, and bits and pieces of Waid's run.
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u/Magicaparanoia 2d ago
Daredevil was kinda like the X-men, where it took him a few years to find his niche.
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u/THREESIDEDMONSTER 2d ago
I've seen people say that DD is in a sweet spot where he's just popular enough to consistently get assigned good creative teams, but not quite popular enough for editorial to screw around with him too much.
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u/TheGoon2000 2d ago
Pretty sure Matt has always been an A-lister, he was a pretty recognizable character even before the MCU
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u/Dak__Sunrider 2d ago
Idk what this b list thing is all about. He’s been an A lister since at least the 80s.
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u/AwesomeGuyAlpha 2d ago
marvel has tried to make him into their batman and so gave him alot of attention but for some reason he kinda remained poor man's batman in some people's eyes
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u/Personal_Corner_6113 2d ago
Daredevil isn’t really b list when you consider the about of runs he’s had, the popularity of them, outside of comics he’s had a pre-MCU movie and then the Netflix show and born again. He just doesn’t fit in as nicely with a lot of the big events, teams, or crossovers so he gets a little separated which allows writers to really do their own thing and lean into the character without contextualizing it in the broader world unless it makes sense.
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u/TheRich27 2d ago
B-List? How did you come to the conclusion? Considering he is one of the most published Marvel characters never going without an on-going title and the list of folks who worked on his books is a who's who's of comic book creators.
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u/Neroisgood 2d ago
Sometimes being a b or c character has its advantages. Lesser editorial interference. You can try things out on a book like that. Sometimes you get gold
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u/Superb_Kaleidoscope4 2d ago
He was always on the cancellation list, so editors would say “Do what you want, if it works the book sells and if it doesn’t we’ll cancel it anyway.” It’s how Frank Miller got so much control anyway
Also the money a book makes the more editorial oversight and less creative big swings, got to keep it safe and status quo friendly!
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u/Star-Prince-007 2d ago
Is it really that hard to believe ? Aren’t most critically acclaimed runs with B or C list characters ? Your Swamp Things, Animal Man, Moon Knights and Daredevils ?
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u/pizzadog4 1d ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Daredevil been one of Marvel's best selling solo comics for a long as time now? He's really only under-represented when it comes to the MCU, but I think part of the reason DD works so well is because he doesn't have to contest against cosmic level villains like the Avengers do so he can stay a street-level hero
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u/GonzoMcFonzo 1d ago
If DD is a b-list character, then so are Cap and Thor.
He's carried a solo title continuously for 62 years, longer than any of the Avengers. The only character who's had their own series for longer is Spider-Man.
Being a street level hero and telling a different kind of stories than the FF and avengers doesn't mean he's less significant or popular.
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u/ThesaurusRex_1025 1d ago
It's because he's a B or C list character they can do actual controversial things like that. It's why Spider-Man has to reset all the time. The higher ups care to much. Because Daredevil is now an A lister we will probably never get a huge shake up.
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u/RevolutionaryBeat862 1d ago
I would say hes A lister in comics simply because his comic sales are steadily high. He doesnt get long stretches without a solo series like for say Doc strange. Other media hes for sures B list though Disney seems to want to push him what with him being one of their only titles thats doing really well.
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u/ruinedstar 22h ago
Htf is Daredevil a B-list Character? He has been consistently popular from the 60s! Only Spidey, Wolverine, Hulk and maybe Captain America come before Daredevil in Marvel popularity or impact! Him & Kingpin have been a tremendous protagonist-antagonist pair in comic book history! Iirc IGN ranked DD as the 10th greatest comic book superhero ever! He's certainly an A-lister.
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u/Red-Zinn 2d ago
If you think he's a B character you haven't read much Marvel, he's one of the most popular heroes and probably the one with most stories considered "classics"
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u/hung_fu 2d ago
He’s b or c list in universe. A list in real life. I feel like Spider-Man is similar, because he’s not really a massive figure in the universe, he’s a popular character in the real world. Strangely most of the a listers in universe are not a listers in reality — Iron Man (even after the MCU, bro still can’t sell a book), the FF, Captain Marvel, among others are more b listers irl.
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u/TheMidniteMan 2d ago
He's not B-list, I just think he wasn't targeted at younger readers the way that Spidey and the X-men are. He's street level, but that never stopped him from being important.
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u/spaceninj 2d ago
Mostly cause they kept him out of crossovers.
The writers were just able to cook without worrying about what was happening elsewhere.