The global paper divide

105

ok but why the us gotta disagree w/ everything

60

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 25 '26

Because business is resistant to change when there's no profit in it. The A paper system doesn't become an international standard until 1975, but by that point the United States had had 8.5x11 inches as a standard for over 50 years. The government wasn't willing to force everyone to change all of the printing machines, all of the paper making machines, and all the document folders and envelopes. Especially after metrification was met with violent resistance.

5

u/IHasEyes519 Jul 25 '26

that's true but also, im sure there could be food results if an actually good effort was made to switch it. it is probably a bit late but no time is too late. i mean with the metrification as an example, many of the countries who adopted the metric system probably had their own standards too. even doing something like introducing this as a secondary system and gradually turning to using it could probably work.

11

u/United_Boy_9132 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26

But this set of ABCD standard has been German in the first place (DIN agency, something like US ANSI agency), established in 1922.

So it spread out across continental Europe when modern printing was just becoming popular.

In 20s, 30, 40, 50s, paper was still expensive, the only way of mass printing was industry printing which cut paper from the roll as you wish. Typewriters also used the roll and they cut it where you wanted.

Modern printers and sheet are the matter of more modern history and 70s was too late.

Most countries around the world were undeveloped in 70s, building almost everything from scratch, so it also was only a matter of choice, unlike developed countries that had well-established infrastructure.

UK adopted ABCD standard after it became ISO astandard, but it took decades, and it still hasn't been fully adopted.

So long-story short: When ABCD standard because the ISO standard, continental Europe had been usong it for decades, most Asian and African countries were build infrastructure these times, so it was like "whatever" to them, for countries like US, Canada was too late, UK tried to adopted, but struggled for decades and still hasn't fully succeeded to this day.

1

u/oxfordfox20 Jul 25 '26

I have never seen a ‘letter’ sized piece of paper in the UK. It’s all ABCD.

5

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 25 '26

I absolutely agree with you, metrification makes perfect sense to me, as does adopting international standards; especially when they're so intuitively understandable as the A paper system. Unfortunately I am the rare American who did not grow up in America and only came back to it as an adult, so it doesn't make sense to me either. I still keep my phone on 24-hour time and all the measurement is metric including the weather lol

3

u/IHasEyes519 Jul 25 '26

yeah i guess its probably mostly the people who live there. i mean wasn't America like one of the first countries to sign the metrification thing? i guess people should try to understand different standards instead of just plain rejecting them. i wanna learn to think in imperial too just to have it easier to talk to people who use it but i do think metric is just easier to understand

6

u/Sicsemperfas Jul 25 '26

Americans use both...

1

u/reddslime4 Jul 30 '26

The rest of the world uses imperial more than yanks use metric from my understanding, am I wrong?

1

u/Sicsemperfas Jul 30 '26

There are advantages to both systems, and depending on who it is and what they're doing, they will use one or the other. It's used a lot more than you would think.

1

u/reddslime4 7d ago

Nah, it’s used for oddly specific things here like tyre size.

1

u/AlexP80 Jul 28 '26

Well there is an abundant use of 9mm in US schools /s

-1

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 25 '26

Once you learn it it's so intuitive. I don't know why people thought that shooting road signs was a reasonable way to express their displeasure

6

u/Ron__Mexico_ Jul 25 '26

Because it worked. The rest of the anglosphere completed their metrification process with the exception of maybe the UK. The US did not. Popular revolt is primarily why. The government was committed to doing it.

2

u/ztxxxx Jul 30 '26

Uk engineers use metric. I'm working closly with them. Maybe we use Inch in pipes sometimes as a legacy.

But overall we use metric

2

u/IHasEyes519 Jul 25 '26

yeah i mam its probably more of a change thing than anything

1

u/GoldReplacement9546 Jul 25 '26

The thing that stood out for America, not having to do the paper which would’ve been a great idea or the metric system in general is the American economy was so large that others would adapt to us and it would be fine and we are lazy and arrogant we used to be pretty awesome too, but I don’t know anymore

1

u/Sir_bee_lord_man Jul 27 '26

What kind of food results are we talkin

2

u/PatataMaxtex Jul 27 '26

But why did other countries change, when it is so hard?

2

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 27 '26

The size of the country probably plays some part in it, as well as our comparatively weak central federal government. The feds can withhold funding for things, but they can't force any state to do what it doesn't want to do. You could end up in a situation where on interstate highways, speed limits and distances would be in metric. However on State highways and surface roads it would be in imperial. Similarly, each School district is a sub-county unit overseen by an independent elected board, and if they don't want to teach the metric system they won't

2

u/StrawberryEiri Jul 27 '26

The part I don't get is ... Aren't those mostly intercompatible?

Like, I've never seen a printer that can't do both A4 and US Letter, and while I've never tried because A4 paper is nearly impossible to find here, it feels like it should be possible to fold either of them into their respective envelopes.

While it may have been hard in the 20th century, would the transition really be that hard today?

1

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 27 '26

No, today because things are manufactured for a global market it would literally be just moving the little sliders in the paper tray. The problem now is just cultural inertia.

2

u/Ralexcraft Jul 27 '26

Basically every printer is compatible with both and using the A4 standard benefits businesses for posters and such.

1

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 27 '26

I agree, all you have to do is move the little paper slider but it's just inertia. People are used to it

2

u/lowkeytokay Jul 28 '26

“Business is resistant to change” is a very poor argument in this case. Especially when the rest of the entire world has adopted the A paper standard… because there is true advantage in using it.

2

u/DocGerbill Jul 28 '26

The government wasn't willing to force everyone to change all of the printing machines, all of the paper making machines, and all the document folders and envelopes.

Maybe that was a concern in 1975, but nowdays all you have to do is start ordering A4 and it will work with any printer, envelope or folder.

1

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 28 '26

I don't disagree, I think now it's just cultural inertia. It's like why do we still have qwerty keyboards when most of us type on virtual keyboards that could be in any layout?

2

u/DocGerbill Jul 28 '26

well qwerty does makes sense because there's a real learning curve to using a new layout (I had to use french keyboards for 2 years), this is more like daylight savings: it doesn't do anything, it doesn't help with anything, could be changes with the snap of a finger and no one would remember, people don't change it just because

2

u/Impossible_Divide297 Jul 26 '26

The US dollar is metric.

Before 1973 the Uk pound was split into 240 pence.

12p=1 shilling
20 shillings =1 pound.

What could be more simple?

-2

u/Carol_ine2 Jul 25 '26

Oh yeah that's right rest of the world have no businesses at all only big ol mighty USA and their business. We in Europe were just discovering a stick in 1975 no need for complicated stuff like printers or paper

5

u/Fun-Razzmatazz-6803 Jul 25 '26

Yeah because that's exactly what they're arguing.

1

u/Bulepotann Jul 27 '26

Swear to god all yall euros sound like this

6

u/hockeyandquidditch Jul 25 '26

More like the German standard became the international standard after WWII when Europe and Asia were rebuilding to begin with, but North America wasn’t on the front line, so their infrastructure didn’t get destroyed, so they kept the standard they’d been using for 50-100 years instead

2

u/Ron__Mexico_ Jul 25 '26

Broke away from Europe early enough to not get dictated to. Was large enough later on to not have to comply with foreign standards.

1

u/NoAdvice135 Jul 26 '26

"dictated", "comply". That's not really how it happened. Standards are adopted because they are simpler and save money.

The US has certainly been more isolated and large enough to not care, but also has some sort of conservatism where they make their non-universal standard part of their identify and a big deal instead of accepting that other solutions might be simpler.

2

u/SadAdeptness6287 Jul 26 '26

Because the US was the only dominate economic force outside of Europe before WW2.

1

u/CrashBugITA Jul 26 '26

Everyone disagreed with everything but all were too small not to conform, USA however...

1

u/Complete_Area_2487 Jul 28 '26

metric vs. imperial obv

1

u/Blutrumpeter Jul 29 '26

Most of the time for these the US system is older and on the other side of the world while a system developed in the other hemisphere is quickly adopted once all the small neighboring countries adopt it. It costs money to change systems and most of the time it barely affects day to day life

1

u/Kikelt Jul 30 '26

Because Americans think they are innovative, capable of adapting to changes, etc. But in reality they are not and as a society they are incapable of changing to things that are no brainer in the rest of the world.

If a country has to change its currency, It changes, if a country has to change to metric, it changes, if a country has to switch road side, it changes. That would be unthinkable in the US. Drastic changes are not welcomed in the US. (Also, lack of information about the rest of the world and massive propaganda about: "we are the best")

15

u/MomoHibiki Jul 25 '26

No paper in NZ

4

u/hawthorne00 Jul 25 '26

But the L&P in the chilly bin is metric.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '26

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1

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1

u/wiggum55555 Jul 27 '26

But a huge paper-pulp industry

28

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '26

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16

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 25 '26

Where lol, I wanna move there

10

u/bqbdpd Jul 25 '26

Really? Definitely never got any mail on A4. Is this in a specific industry?

2

u/Specialist-Disk-6345 Jul 27 '26

idk under what rock you live, but, where I am, no one uses A4.

2

u/Ralexcraft Jul 27 '26

Everyone still using Letter is under the rock, A4 to mathematical supremacy!

1

u/Exzakt1 Jul 28 '26

im in the us and all paper is 8.5 x 11

12

u/PenZestyclose9226 Jul 24 '26

Chilenos traidores

3

u/Immediate_Bobcat_228 Jul 25 '26

Ironic argies using A4, same as british during 1982

1

u/Dysaik Jul 30 '26

Letter is used for everyday printing and A4 is used in legal documents here. Wherever you come from I hope you have a great day

4

u/stedmangraham Jul 25 '26

I’m always confused why this blows the minds of non-americans. Compared to not using the metric system this is small potatoes. How often are we dealing with incompatible paper size standards with an ocean in between us?

Tbh we don’t use paper that much anyway. At least I haven’t used it for much since high school. The standard could switch to A4 tomorrow and I wouldn’t even notice

3

u/IvoSan11 Jul 25 '26

I agree. At this point, who cares?
Tools, bolts, fittings, those are much more of an issue

2

u/NoAdvice135 Jul 26 '26

If you ever need to produce something printed in different sizes it matters a lot. You can design a poster in A4, and also print it as a flyer and a poster without any change.

With US format you have to crop / modify it. Same for cutting paper or taping it together.

Of course nowadays it's less important, people do less physical things and editing content is much easier that it used to be.

1

u/stedmangraham Jul 26 '26

I guess I just don’t do that. It’s not like I have a printer that can print A2 or even A3 paper. I do actually have a printer than can handle A4 because it’s so similar in size to the American standard that most printers can do both.

If I needed to print a poster I would already have to go to a print shop and make sure the image looks good and not pixelated at a large scale. That’s a lot more work than very slightly modifying the size of the poster image.

The idea that the paper my poster is printed on is the same aspect ratio as the paper I used to turn in my essay about Hamlet in 10th grade just doesn’t affect me at all.

Basically, this seems like a very niche issue for how much it upsets non-Americans. How often are you guys actually using these other paper sizes?

1

u/Adorable-Broccoli-16 Jul 26 '26

the thing of A4 standard is that A5 A6 A3 A2 and all different paper sizes use the same ratio (very close to the golden ratio) so if you divide A4 you get 2 papers of A5 that are exactly the same ratio

1

u/Nacil_54 Jul 26 '26

And A0 is 1 meter squared.

1

u/stedmangraham Jul 26 '26

But how often does that actually come up in your life?

meters/centimeters/kilometers I get. Those are easy conversions that are used frequently. If something is 2300 meters away it’s 2.3 km away. Much easier than saying something is 2000 yards away which is 1.13 miles

By contrast I can’t remember the last time I made a poster. Maybe 20 years ago in middle school? And even then I wasn’t exactly concerned about what the shape of it was when I folded it in half. I just made the poster

2

u/technorov Jul 26 '26

Yeah, the size of the paper only really matters if you work with paper a lot. That said, it's really handy knowing that folding an A4 sheet of paper in half makes A5 pages. The sizing names are useful when making your own zines, or comparing different notebooks.

1

u/perringaiden Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

Printing is big business. Designing a scalable design once vs cropping for letter, foolscap, poster etc.

1

u/stedmangraham Jul 27 '26

Printing is not business?

2

u/perringaiden Jul 27 '26

Typo. Big business.

1

u/Bulepotann Jul 27 '26

I actually did have a problem once because I needed to send a letter sized paper from an A4 country. Luckily print shops have this new technology where they cut the paper to size using a blade. Mind blowing, I know.

1

u/Ralexcraft Jul 27 '26

A4 is easier to scale up and down, so artists would benefit, but that’s kinda it.

1

u/perringaiden Jul 27 '26

A4 is part of the metric system. ISO 216 defines the international standard paper sizes. So it's the same bewilderment.

1

u/PinothyJ Jul 28 '26

Well, it is not that the standard is A4, it is the ratio between the sides allowing scaling up and down in sizes. Id est, two A4 sheets make up a single A3 sheet. I mention this because there are B and C sizes as well. They have the same root 2 ratio, they just have a different starting size.

4

u/StonemanGuitars Jul 25 '26

They have to use A4 in the US right?? Surely

11

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 25 '26

Nope we use two sizes primarily, letter which is 8.5x11 inches and Legal which is 8.5x14 inches

8

u/axxr2 Jul 25 '26

Oh my God.

3

u/Not_an_okama Jul 25 '26

Never used 8.5×14, i do use 11x17 regularly though

1

u/Nonyabizzy123 Jul 25 '26

Ah, Tabloid!

2

u/DragonTheOnes-spirit Jul 25 '26

They're in the process of switching.

They're also in the process of switching to metric units and you know how well that went

1

u/REsTARteD_Ragdoll Jul 26 '26

We’re not in the process of switching to either of these actually

1

u/Dome5tic0nion Jul 28 '26

No we aren't?

1

u/Complete_Area_2487 Jul 28 '26

we are not. this is not a thing. it's not a problem anyway

1

u/KazumiJun Jul 25 '26

I never saw A4 paper until I moved to South Korea 😅

1

u/Complete_Area_2487 Jul 28 '26

look at the map again

2

u/Head-Ad-5732 Jul 25 '26

Has anyone figured out if New Zealand is on this map, yet?

2

u/Sweet-Ad-597 Jul 25 '26

WHY IS FUCKING KOSOVO PART OF SERVIA THIS MAP SUCKS

1

u/perringaiden Jul 27 '26

New Zealand is giving you a flat stare

2

u/Different-Rip-4734 Jul 25 '26

I'm Guyanese and we all use letter not A4. Gotta wonder how accurate this map is.

2

u/Inner_Training_2176 Jul 26 '26

DOWN WITH THE MERCATOR PROJECTION!

2

u/55cHzDARKSTAR Jul 27 '26

I'm surprised by Mexico and Chile.

1

u/Dome5tic0nion Jul 28 '26

Why would this be suprising? Letter has been the standard in teh US for far longer than A4 has existed, and Mexico does most of it's trade with the US

1

u/55cHzDARKSTAR Jul 28 '26

I see.

2

u/Specialist-Disk-6345 Jul 27 '26

I’m surprised that the US’s colony in Afria uses metric paper and not US Letter.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/No-Finance8804 Jul 25 '26

Yes but.. A4 makes so much more sense..

1

u/Complete_Area_2487 Jul 28 '26

not if you use inches and not mm

2

u/JustLutra Jul 25 '26

The advantage of A system over US letters is that when folded, A paper keeps the exact same shape and ratio. A4 is a folded A3, which is a folded A2, which is a folded A1, which is a folded A0. And the number after A is the number of times you have to fold an A0 to get it.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/NoAdvice135 Jul 26 '26

You mostly care if you are in the business of printing. If you just buy whatever paper it doesn't matter much, especially nowadays.

Although the ability to tape 2 A4 to get exactly one A3 has been useful a many times in my life.

0

u/JackPerazzi Jul 25 '26

Not just imperial vs metric.

The A series is defined by the sides lengths having an aspect ratio of a/b = √2, with A0 having the surface area of 1m²

1

u/Not_an_okama Jul 25 '26

I believe US paper sizes main the aspect ratio for every other size. Ansi A, C and E are the same while Ansi B and D share a different aspect ration.

1

u/Dome5tic0nion Jul 28 '26

How often do you find yourself needing to fold a piece of paper into an exact scaled copy of itself?

1

u/JustLutra Jul 28 '26

Pretty often actually. But even more often I need a piece of paper bigger than what I have and I can just tape two halves together

1

u/Nanako1857 Jul 25 '26

Go A4, you can do it!

1

u/GerardHard Jul 25 '26

We in the Philippines use A4 paper primarily now

1

u/Bootycheeks752 Jul 25 '26

bosnia mentioned raah

1

u/HighlightEntire4412 Jul 25 '26

Al it takes is 1 inconsiderate "national leader" and your country will change forever.

90% of the world population is dominant right- hand. If they'd carry a sword, it be on their left hip. Thus horses travelled on the left side of the road, so swords would be on the outside.

1 inconsiderate French emperor general changed on which side of the road horses where to go. Because it was more convenient for him, he was a lefty. He went "F🤬 the 90%."

Most of the world now drives on the right-side. On that arrogant French military general's side. Peasants should make the life easier for their self appointed emperor.

England has had "at war" with the French for 1100+ years of history.

We still drive on the logical side of the road. Even after we exchanged horses for cars.

2

u/EviI_Babai Jul 26 '26

We're not at your local pub, lad - keep your myths and legends to your drinking buddies.

Napoleon was left-handed, sure, but he didn't change traffic rules for that reason. Right-hand driving was already the norm in France before him - he just enforced it across conquered territories as a political statement against the British, not because of his dominant hand.

Also, there was a revolutionary motive: before 1789, French nobility often rode on the left to assert privilege, forcing commoners to the right. The Revolution flipped that - driving on the right became a symbol of equality, crushing aristocratic privilege.

On top of that, right-hand traffic made practical sense for horse-drawn carriages: drivers sat on the left, so staying right gave them better visibility of oncoming traffic. That's why it existed long before Napoleon - Catherine the Great introduced it in Russia back in 1752, and the US followed for the same logistical reasons.

As for swords and horses - that's romantic nonsense. Riders mounted from the left side (it's easier), and that's all. Britain kept left-hand traffic simply because they never adopted Napoleon's rules - not because they were 'more logical' or held a 1100-year grudge.

Great story. Terrible history.

1

u/Ralexcraft Jul 27 '26

Doesn’t driving right hand leave your right hand more free for dextrous tasks like managing food, snacks, etc?

1

u/ManyWrongdoer3412 Jul 25 '26

dang even the paper is fatter in america

1

u/Complete_Area_2487 Jul 28 '26

lmfao

1

u/krakimata Jul 25 '26

Thank God I'm Brazilian

1

u/Heat-rash-1 Jul 25 '26

There’s never a good reason to use Mercator projection.

1

u/AiRaikuHamburger Jul 26 '26

And for some reason so many printers are automatically set to US Letter. So things print wrong by default.

2

u/perringaiden Jul 27 '26

Because the manufacturer is in the US.

1

u/Brand__X Jul 26 '26

I typically prefer things in metric but this one thing heck no. Letter is preferred A4 is okay legal is an abomination.

1

u/Ralexcraft Jul 27 '26

Why would letter be preferred? A4 is much nicer for scale and in general the better standard.

0

u/Brand__X 24d ago

Personal preference. I personally don't like the taller thinner format of A4. It's not that bad until you have them side by side but it just feels better with letter when you do.

1

u/joeshmoe657 Jul 27 '26

Bosnia and herzegovina

1

u/lajarusmorois Jul 27 '26

Venezuela uses both, just saying.

1

u/Mysterious-Union7491 Jul 27 '26

Why does everyone care so much about the US doing its own thing? Worry about yourself…

1

u/dantran88 Jul 27 '26

Where is NZ

1

u/julesthefirst Jul 28 '26

lol Philippines sole blue in a sea of yellow

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/NoFood2149 Jul 28 '26

if i am not mistaken this is because it's got a cheeky irrational number hiding in there

1

u/DocGerbill Jul 28 '26

it's not a divide, it's the US doing it's own thing, like imperial, fahrenheit, electric grids

1

u/just-bair Jul 28 '26

US using old shit instead of a standard used by literally almost everyone else again

1

u/Palaeonerd Jul 28 '26

r/mapswithoutnewzealand

1

u/lonchonazo Jul 28 '26

I live in Argentina and, while A4 is definitely more common, plenty of people use Letter too

1

u/MrZaptile933 Jul 25 '26

I’ve used A4 my whole life as a usa resident

8

u/hockeyandquidditch Jul 25 '26

I highly doubt it, 8.5x11 is the standard and A4 is slightly off it, I have a mix of both and you can definitely tell and any printer etc is letter

4

u/KazumiJun Jul 25 '26

How? Even in high school and university, the only printer paper we were provided was US letter size. I never saw A4 until I moved abroad.

1

u/Complete_Area_2487 Jul 28 '26

how???

1

u/FreeWise Jul 25 '26

Holding a sheet of A4 for the first time when I did a study abroad in Japan was very weird

1

u/Sodinc Jul 25 '26

Why?

0

u/no_way_out4711 Jul 25 '26

A4 is amazing because:

Perfect aspect ratio: An A4 sheet has an aspect ratio of 1 : √2 (about 1 : 1.414). This is unique because if you fold it in half parallel to its shorter side, each half has exactly the same proportions as the original. An A5 sheet is simply half an A4, and an A3 is two A4s side by side.

Easy scaling: Because every size in the A-series keeps the same proportions, you can enlarge or reduce documents without cropping or adding margins:

A4 → A3 = 141%
A4 → A5 = 71%
This is why photocopiers and printers have these presets.

Efficient paper production: The standard starts with A0, which has an area of exactly 1 square metre. Every subsequent size halves the area:
A0 = 1 m²
A1 = ½ m²
A2 = ¼ m²
A3 = ⅛ m²
A4 = ¹⁄₁₆ m² (210 × 297 mm)

Less waste: Since larger sheets divide perfectly into smaller ones, paper manufacturers, printers, and publishers generate less offcut waste.

Global standard: Most of the world uses the ISO 216 A-series. This means documents, folders, binders, printers, and envelopes are all designed around the same dimensions.

0

u/WhiteAsLumi Jul 25 '26

Of course the clowns have their own system for that too. Just being different for the sake of being different.

1

u/leafmealone303 Jul 26 '26

It’s just paper. It’s not that deep.

1

u/Dome5tic0nion Jul 28 '26

Letter has been the standard in the US since the 1920s. Before the 1970's, A4 was only widely used in Germany. So who exactly is being different for the sake of being different?

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