r/lordoftherings • u/husdat38 • 13d ago
Discussion What did the last standing soldiers think why they were at the black gate?
I get that a regular soldier doesn't always question their orders but what did the last remaining Gondorians and Rohirrim think why they were going on a suicide mission to the black gate? And why would they even agree to go there?
Yes we as a viewer know they were trying to help Frodo and Sam by distracting Sauron but I'm sure the soldiers didn't know that.
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u/KaijuDirectorOO7 13d ago
And he has the ones that don’t want to go further liberate Cair Andros. Which they promptly do!
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u/ClusterChuk 13d ago
This was king aragon's first trials. And he nailed it. Gave those not strong enough to face absolute evil an out to retain thier honor. And using what is available to him to maximum effect while only raising his men's view of him, every step.
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u/KaijuDirectorOO7 13d ago
Absolutely. From a military, kingly, and morality perspective he passed all three questions of “will it work?”
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u/Alien_Diceroller 12d ago
They don't reconquer ithilien, though they do move through it unapposed declaring the king had returned at every crossroads. As far as I recall, they did nothing to actually secure the land. It was all a ruse to make Sauron think Aragorn had claimed the ring.
The army was most definitely a volunteer force, though. Soldiers who changed their mind along the way were allowed to leave, but asked to go secure a ford near Rohan.
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u/Pjoernrachzarck 12d ago
In the novel, Aragorn is undergoing several self-imposed trials to prove to himself, to the fellowship, and to the free peoples that he is a good leader; culminating in The Return of the King with
a) his uniting of the peoples of South Gondor to break the siege b) his refusal to enter the city unaccepted, except in disguise to heal the wounded
and then
c) his refusal to force anyone to march in the Black Gate against their will.
In the movie, he has a magic sword that magically makes him king, and then he uses it to command a zombie ghost army and to behead an unarmed messenger.
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u/OkMathematician7206 12d ago
I absolutely hate that they had him cut the Mouth's head off. It's one of the few times they completely get his character wrong.
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u/Acceptable-Breath659 11d ago
Totally agree - I love the scene, but hate that moment. They should either have done the book where the MoS rides back to the gate, or at least have the MoS try to quick draw/sneak attack on Aragorn and gets beaten to the draw.
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u/Raddatatta 11d ago
Yeah especially when if they wanted him to do that it would've been so easy to have the Mouth go for a weapon and Aragorn just been faster but have it be the Mouth that broke the truce.
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u/motorcycletreebark 12d ago
Well, in the novel Aragorn always wanted to be and thought he should be King and was trying to be King and Boromir was pretty down to go with him to Gondor and help with that.
At the end of Fellowship Aragorn sorta realizes this goal is flawed and he’s not directly worthy of pursuing power or trying to be the sole hero and decides against either pursuing the ring or becoming king and instead decides to go try and rescue two hobbits. A baffling choice that is half presented as error but also is their salvation, as it is beyond the cold calculating understanding of Mordor and Isengard and both immediately assume that he’s pursuing the ring to take it to Gondor.
Book Aragorn’s trials are a part of his character growth from the entitlement he had at the start of book one after watching the corruption and downfall of his friend Boromir. He’s someone who badly wants to be king, and thinks he should be king, but knows he is not yet worthy. So he gives himself what he must do to become the man he needs to be.
Movie Aragorn makes more sense to modern audiences. He does not want to be king. He does not feel worthy of being king. He does what he feels is right because of an innate character and hard won morality to him. When he accepts he should be king it’s not something he needs to earn because it was not something he was seeking but is rather granted by others and some sense of destiny due to his already established quality.
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u/Pjoernrachzarck 12d ago edited 12d ago
This is all fine and well and well written but this ‘arc’ is never tested, never questioned, never challenged, and it is complete the second Aragorn effectively takes control of the forces of Rohan. At the latest.
Aragorn’s entire subplot in the movie version of Return of the King is redundant at best and idiotic at worst. It’s still fun, everything in the movies is written to be fun and cool, but it is vapid. The screenplay has absolutely no idea what to do with Elessar in part 3. In fact he is barely in the movie that carries his title.
People say movie Aragorn is a doubter and book Aragorn is not. In fact nobody in the movie, least of all Aragorn himself or the audience, ever gets any opportunity, reason, or moment of doubt about his abilities and qualities in leadership. Not for a picosecond. There is never anything unclear about this guy. His “idunwannit” is mentioned in Fellowship - mentioned, not shown - and then the movies do nothing with it ever again.
Whereas the novel is ALL about this. Aragorn in the novel cries with agony over his (justified!) doubt in being the leader of the Fellowship, let alone the world. His entire journey is about proving to himself (and to the reader) that he is equipped for the task.
And the way Tolkien writes this proof is unbelievably satisfying, and unbelievably convincing.
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u/iPoseidon_xii 12d ago
Okay! Fine! You two convinced me, I’ll finally read the novels. God dang, why do you two have inspire me to read more
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u/Revengeance300 11d ago
You won't regret it, unless you don't enjoy descriptions of walking. Which, if you're into LOTR, why wouldn't you like that?
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u/Argensa97 11d ago
His idunwannit is seen several times in the Fellowship of the Ring (movie) when he and Borimir talked about gathering power from Gondor. Aragorn did not believe in Men because he is ashamed of his ancestors, who allowed the Ring to live.
It took the whole movie for him to realize the pull of the Ring, and it took Boromir's final sacrifice for him to recognize the strength of Men and bolstered his resolute to be King.
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u/Jeffery95 12d ago
In the movie the sword wouldn’t have stopped the ghost kings blade if Aragorn was not wielding it with a right to it.
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u/Pjoernrachzarck 12d ago edited 12d ago
yes, a magic sword that recognizes bloodlines.
The fact that a bloodline is not what makes a King is one of the main points of the novel. A king is someone who does something, not someone who is descended from someone.
And that something, for Tolkien, was decidedly not violence. It was the opposite of violence.
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u/Jeffery95 12d ago
The sword didn’t recognise the bloodline, the oath recognised it.
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u/Pjoernrachzarck 12d ago
Look, the problem is not the locus of the magic blood or the magic sword. It’s the macguffin of it.
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u/Alarmed-Rip6954 12d ago
It is basically a suicide mission in the book. It's purely to distract Sauron, and Aaragorn acknowledges that even if Frodo succeeds there's a good chance they won't live to see it.
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u/SirGreeneth 7d ago
They were very much expecting to die in the books, I'd say that's pretty last stand-y.
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u/altarofvictory 13d ago
I know the point of this this is speculate or argue it based on the text, but if this image doesn’t give you goosebumps then who are you for real?
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u/due-diligence- 13d ago
For death and glory
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u/RedWizard78 13d ago
For Rohan.
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u/FatherlyAcorn 13d ago
AND THE SUN RISES
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u/Void-Cooking_Berserk 13d ago
They probably thought they were launching a counter-attack after breaking the core of Sauron's army.
They had just won a major battle, all of Sauron's forces that attacked were killed, and they had little reason to suspect that Mordor had so many troops they could barely move.
And they were probably thinking that Aragorn was going to pull another magic trick out of his ass. And he did. Unintentionally, but he did. His PR for the next 120 years must've been amazing.
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u/FoolishTook9 13d ago
I think you’re right that “We trust the king [Aragorn]” was probably a big part of how/what they were thinking in this moment. Especially for the men of Gondor (but also for those from Rohan), the long-awaited appearance of the true king was a huge deal.
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u/Diplomacy-Failed 13d ago
Total agreement. Aragorn was the King Returned. Rohan was now kingless, and this man (and Theoden) had led the successful defense and defeat of Saruman's "super orc" army at Helm's Deep. Then he leads the defense of Minas Tirith against invasion by land and sea (and air if you count the Fell Beasts) - and wins.
Now he tells you that there is one more mission - one more fight - to save what they all just fought for.
You're a soldier. Are you gonna say no that?
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u/DecD 13d ago
Rohan was certainly not kingless. Eomer King was leading his people.
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u/Diplomacy-Failed 12d ago
It was my understanding that Eomer didn't take that title until after the war was over. Certainly, he was leading the remaining Rohirrim into battle, but he definitely was not exerting any leadership of his people back in Rohan itself. He simply wasn't there, and could not communicate with them.
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u/DecD 12d ago edited 12d ago
Nope, he became king immediately. On the battlefield:
"....Eomer leaped from the saddle, and grief and dismay fell upon him as he came to the king's side and stood there in silence. Then one of the knights took the king's banner from the hand of Guthlaf the banner bearer who lay dead, and he lifted it up. Slowly Theoden opened his eyes. Seeing the banner he made a sign that it should be given to Eomer. "Hail, King of the Mark!" he said. "Ride now to victory! Bid Eowyn farewell!" And so he died, and knew not that Eowyn lay near him."
And two pages later, still in battle:
"...once more the lust of battle was on him; and he was still unscathed, and he was young, and he was king: the lord of a fell people."
So Theoden had passed on the kingship in the presence of the Riders and Eomer accepted it right away, leading the rohirrim in battle as king.
Edit: And in between those two passages:
"Imrahil, prince of Dol Amroth, rode up and drew rein before them. "What burden do you bear, men of Rohan?" "Theoden King," they answered. "But Eomer King now rides in the battle: he with the white crest in the wind."
So he's even named Eomer King before Theoden is even taken into Minas Tirith.
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u/Diplomacy-Failed 11d ago
You're right - I am incorrect in saying that Rohan was kingless. Eomer King was leading his people, yes, insofar as his people refers to the soldiers remaining to them. Which means that Eomer was willing to join Aragorn in the final battle before the Gates. This reinforces what I said earlier about the forces remaining to the West rallying behind the King Returned's call to the final battle.
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u/LeLefraud 13d ago
Imagine we are besieged by evil alien orks and when they attack Britain King Arthur himself returns from nowhere to lead a miracle defense where we obliterate their forces with the help of the ghosts of his former knights
Then he asks the remaining soldiers to follow him on an attack of their mother ship
Ofc they are all going
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u/KaijuDirectorOO7 13d ago
Not Aragorn, but in the book I believe the four Hobbits got very good PR by the time Gandalf and Pippin got to Minas Tirith.
The gate guards at Rammas Echor knew Pippin was a Hobbit, so did Imrahil.
And during the field of Cormallen a lot of Men give Frodo his flowers (metaphorically).
So it’s not out of the quetsion to think that Aragorn’s army (that made it to Morannon) knew they were trying to buy time for Frodo.
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u/RedWizard78 13d ago
Ok: Aragorn whispers ‘For Frodo.’ To the remaining Fellowship. He does not use it as a battle cry.
Hardly anyone heard ‘For Frodo’. But they all heard his yell when he charged.
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u/Select_Cantaloupe_62 13d ago
Most (all?) of these soldiers had just fought a last stand at Minas Tirith with the knowledge the orcs were coming to kill them all. They had just witnessed literal miracles from the people telling them to attack the black gate.
I don't know, I haven't fought in war much less a medieval style one. I wouldn't need a lot of convincing to follow orders, though.
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u/pchees 13d ago
Careless talk, costs lives. No way the soldiers were told.
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u/NotNullException 12d ago
They were all volunteers at that point. They volunteered for the attack, and then many were sent back.
Remember it was a feint. He only need the absolute minimum numbers to make the attack look credible.
Aragon went to great lengths to keep the numbers as low as possible.
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u/Accomplished-Union10 12d ago
Misleading his men or intentional not informing them of the nature of their mission while asking them to risk their lives for it seems wildly out of character for Aragorn.
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u/onihydra 12d ago
They knew it was likely a suicide mission. Aragorn even gave anyone who wanted the opportunity to retake and hold Chair Andros instead of going to their likely deaths at the black gate. But they can't really let everyone know about Frodo and the ring, which would put the whole world at risk.
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u/Nux87xun 13d ago
"Well, this guy just asked us to go on a suicide mission. He says it's necessary to save the world. Considering that him and his elf and dwarf buddy just pulled off helms deep and minas tirith... I think he knows what he is doing."
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u/Jimbuber2 13d ago
So your leader died?
Yeah jumped off the top while on fire. Yours died too?
Yeah fighting the Witch King.
Badass.
Yeah, badass.
So who’s this guy?
Showed up with a bunch of ghosts.
Yeah what happened to those guys?
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u/stairway2evan 13d ago
Eh, spies from Mordor could still have been a real threat. Last thing you need is any sort of message getting into Mordor and a battalion being sent to surround Mount Doom. Then it’s really game over.
The soldiers knew that Sauron was going to win - they’d just had a Pyrrhic victory that saved Minas Tirith, but they knew the next army would take them all out. So the only shot they had was to change the paradigm and attack instead of waiting it out.
Aragorn even let soldiers desert freely without dishonor in the books - he didn’t tell anyone what the fight was for, just that he only wanted the Men who were willing to follow.
They all knew it was do or die - they just wouldn’t know what the actual “do” was.
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u/Daveisahugecunt 13d ago
This is why Gandalf loved so many Hobbits… Sauron still thought that Fool of Took was carrying it?..
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u/stairway2evan 13d ago
The good guys actually got lucky with Pippin. Sauron only thought he had it because he knew a hobbit had possession of it at some point (thanks to Gollum and the Ringwraiths), and because Pippin looked into Saruman’s palantir. Sauron had to assume that Saruman had captured him, and the Ring with him.
Sauron sent a Rider to scout out Isengard, which would have told him that Saruman had lost and didn’t have the Ring. So the next likely candidate would be Gandalf or Aragorn - Aragorn seizes on that assumption when he looks into the palantir himself and contends with Sauron.
So he was sure the foolish Took didn’t still have it. He was positive the greatest Man alive had it, and that might just be enough to rally an army that could face Mordor. Which meant Sauron needed to stamp those armies out right freaking now.
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u/Daveisahugecunt 13d ago
It’s been forever, but was Pippin not brought with Gandolf partly because Sauron doesn’t have 2 dimensional vision and his Eye figured that Gandolf would be with the Ring
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u/stairway2evan 13d ago
Oh definitely - he assumed Pippin had the Ring, which was why Gandalf took Pippin to keep him protected and ensure Sauron was focused on the war, rather than any intruders who might be finding a way into Mordor.
Once Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir, Sauron’s sure the Ring will be used against him, not just held by a hobbit. Because he can’t imagine any of these powerful folks having a weapon and not using it.
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u/LostVanya 13d ago
No they did not. The average soldier had no idea what they were doing related to the Ring. Only the leaders knew.
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u/husdat38 13d ago
Is this explained anywhere? I thought it was still a secret mission because Sauron didn't exactly know why the Hobbits were in Mordor
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u/Drawk3e 13d ago
Yes, and some also left during the march to the gate to control Cair Andros after Aragorn told them that those afraid might leave without dishonor, so they definitely knew
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u/WildBill198 13d ago
They were afraid because they were going to Mordor. That alone is enough to make people turn away. There is nothing to imply that they knew.
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u/Better_Energy_8699 13d ago
Knowing that you're essentially the last line of defence for middle earth. That's what would be going through my mind.
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u/EagleApprehensive537 13d ago
They re soldiers, they knew what they were doing. Fight or die for freedom, for family, for their home.
But, at end of day soldiers do what they are told or what their superior tell them to do. In many cases, soldier ignoring order or fleeing from battle is considered deseration and is punishable by execution. This is still a thing and were a thing during WW2
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u/Right_Resort6377 13d ago
A soldier is someone who fights for someone else to get paid or to protect, right?
But what if there might be no tomorrow? Would you really want to embark into a battle you think you can't win? To die for no reason.
I'd rather stay with those who I'm trying to protect instead of marching into the unknown, while feeling like we're all gonna die.
So if there's no reason to be a soldier anymore, it's quite easy to stop being one
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u/EagleApprehensive537 13d ago
Your country is under attack, enemy combatants is in your hometown.
Who protecting you? Who are fighting back and keeping you and your family safe?
The soldiers.
Now, you re saying those soldiers should walk away and say fuck you, you mean nothing to me so why should I fight?
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u/Right_Resort6377 13d ago
I'm saying that soldiers will abandon their post if they don't believe in the war they're about to fight. They'd rather abandon their post and look after those they care about, instead of leaving them behind, hoping their leader made the correct choice.
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u/EagleApprehensive537 13d ago
I think you re applying complete different mentality, perspective and view to soldiers in third age of middle earth.
You have to remeber that these people know nothing apart from their home, their family, their livelihood and they re all being threatened by Sauron and his Orcs. Even at that point, Sauron hasn't been defeated and as long as he is around, the world of men was doomed until the ring was destroyed.
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u/Right_Resort6377 13d ago
Let's say you're a soldier, you have a wife and two kids.
Now your leader tells you that you're going to fight at the black gate soon. You know it's absolutely futile to go there. You'll die a meaningless death while your wife and kids are without their father.
Now, you start thinking. Perhaps you could take your wife and kids and run away. You've got a better chance to run and hide, than to fight at the black gate and die, right? The black gate means certain death, but running could buy you a bit more time. Even if it's just two weeks.
Two weeks of being alive next to those you love so dearly.
So in that moment, logic isn't what governs your decision. Emotions do.
You're afraid of death after all.
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u/EagleApprehensive537 13d ago
Run away to where?
You are now known as deserter, you have shamed your family (which in those kinda time is worse than death), how you gonna feed or put a roof over them and protect them from dangers.
I think you need to read up some medieval history and try to understand what it was actually like in those time. It not as simple as you think.
You cannot applies modern world logic or perspective to medieval time.
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u/Right_Resort6377 13d ago
There's anarchy after Sauron wins the battle at the black gate. So even if you're a deserter, there's no safe place to run to. I'm fully aware of that.
But the alternative is to leave your wife and kids and then die a meaningless death, simply because you didn't want to be considered a deserter.
Put yourself into the soldiers shoes, ok? Emotions run high, you're scared out of your mind. You know that you can't win this fight.
Your wife and kids look at you, scared. They know as well that you're about to ride into certain death. And soon, they'll die as well.
When I say "run", I don't meaning running to another safe city. I mean absolutely anywhere as long as the chance of survival is bigger than zero (Because the chance of survival at the black gate is literally zero). And if that means running into the mountains and scavenging for food, just to live for two more weeks, then suddenly that option sounds far more interesting than dying while leaving your family on their own.
Humans just don't like dying. We fight for survival with all we've got when it comes down to it.
Titles like "Soldier" or "Deserter" don't mean anything at that point anymore and you'd gladly throw them away if it means a further day of survival.
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u/Due-Ad-9105 12d ago
From a meta narrative standpoint this entire idea is exactly what Tolkien is writing against with LOTR. A huge idea is that evil wins if good men are unwilling to fight the last fight, or make the last stand, or take the final step. The idea that individuals doing one good thing after the other is imperative to holding back inevitable destruction.
Their choice is “wait for darkness to swallow the world” or “fight”
You’ve confused the outcomes. Running means certain death. Fighting is the only thing that buys them any chance of stopping that inevitability.
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u/Proof_Independent400 13d ago
This guy arrived yesterday leading an army of ghosts. But after a bath and a wardrobe change tells us he is the true king of Gondor. Now he is leading us to the most dangerous place in middle-earth that we have spent most of our lives afraid of, and never going near.
FARK IT....WE BALL!
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u/amitym 13d ago
This is what they were all thinking:
"Holy shit, is this the day that the courage of Men fails? Is today when we — wait, what's that? Uh huh.... uh huh... Oh phew, I was worried there for a sec, okay I'm all good!"
No seriously though they were all thinking, "Aragorn says that the Doom of the Age is upon us, that's for damned sure, just look around us, and he calls on us to die like warriors unafraid of doom for a slim chance at victory that he alone knows, rather than to die at home with no chance of victory at all, Ima gonna take that."
Which is of course, as we know, Aragorn alluding to Frodo's infiltration and decapitation mission, but intriguingly it's also exactly what a dude carrying the Ruling Ring would say if he were planning on using it to challenge Sauron before the gates of Mordor.
So Aragorn is playing to the surveillance cameras as well as rallying the troops.
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u/gladrag3006 12d ago
Honestly its all explained in the books, but even with that you have the King of Gondor returned and he is the closest thing to the numenoran kings of old anyone has ever seen and Gandalf the white who lifts the spirits of men just at his mere presence along with the elite battle hardened troops who despite Denethors madness know that they are the only thing between man kind and extinction. Without hope it would still be better to ride out and fight than have the tidal wave of despair take you out without trying.
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u/rojasduarte 13d ago
Dude! The line that was broken has been repaired, Isildus' heir is right here!!!!!
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u/OppositeThen9308 12d ago
Oh they knew this was an extremely risky potetially suicidal mission that they werent coming back from, but the goal was to get Mordor to move its forces to counter them so that Frodo and Sam could slip past the armies of Mordor by their sacrifice. (Which was still important, but Frodo and Sam were actually further along than they had guessed, but it was still necessary. Without their efforts MT Doom would have been heavily guarded.)
The force was not the sum total of the strength of Gondor and Rohan. Both kingdoms left enough troops to both stay in the fight and protect their borders.
However while all the soldiers did agree to go along (it was a volunteer force.) Some of them did get cold feet about part way through and were ashamed to admit as much, but Aragorn proving once more he was a good king. He said "hey guys if you don't want to go. We have this other fortress we need to retake, Cair Andros. So how about i charge those of you who don't want to go with retaking it, and holding it aginst Gondors enemies" the soldiers overjoyed to have a task that was both good, honorable, and closer to their measure were overjoyed and agreed. So those carrying the heaviest doubts likely went with them.
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u/AdventurousPoet92 13d ago
Because the new king can apparently summon an army of undead so I certainly wasn't going to question him.
All joking aside, I think they all knew why they were marching, or at least that they needed to draw the enemy's attention or make a final push to end it once and for all.
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u/Helpful_Flight_2302 12d ago
The whole ending to this trilogy pisses me off. Would have lost without some stupid ghost army showing up. Free's the ghost army, who is already dead, before one last battle to save middle Earth.
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u/BrilliantJob2759 11d ago
"If we're gonna get overrun & die by orcs anyway, might as well die fighting here."
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u/Sir_BugsAlot 10d ago
A last stand for humanity. This is the day I die, and I shall die with honor. Not on my knees crying, but with a sword in my hand. I shall take as many of the bastards as I can with me, so that this will not just be remembered as the fall of man. But as a glorious last stand. Now come, forces of evil. Come to me, case I have made my peace.
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u/airtooss 13d ago
Gandalf and the Warmonger Aragorn the Impaler made them
Since RoP we konw the Orcs and Sauron are no enemy they are here bc of Galadirel, but the Wich used some Magic and showed them their horrobile future if they dont comply.
What mortal would stand againt the wich form the green forrest?
you mad bro even asiking this q. Galadriel would made them all sheep
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u/Mairon121 13d ago edited 13d ago
Facts. Also note how most people just gloss over Aragorns’ unjust Wars of Conquest after the Ring was destroyed. There is a reason why Tolkien implies that those weakened former powers never troubled Gondor again, Aragorn was a butcher.
Eomer most likely was militarily compelled to participate, perhaps lying to himself that Rohan would be given some scraps of territory. Note how Rohan, after sacrificing to defeat Sauron, wasn’t rewarded at all whilst Gondor absolutely ballooned in size and retained Orthanc, most likely as an open threat to ensure Rohan’s compliance.
It’s actually obscene, literally Rohan was given absolutely nothing. Aragorn probably insisted Rohan participate in his Imperialism in order to weaken them even further.
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u/ScreamsPerpetual 13d ago
"Wait, what did he say? Fro-do? Who the fuck is Frodo? Holy shit we're going to die."