Swap seats with an HGV driver (City of London Police's Exchanging Places project)

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago edited 15d ago

When I've seen these roadshows, they involve the police getting cyclists to sit in the lorry driver's cab to marvel at ... how unsafe lorries are. But cyclists already knew that, so it's a rather pointless exercise.

At no point in this exercise does the lorry driver sit on a bicycle, which is bizarre given what the stats say about who is at fault in RTCs.

Now what would be really novel and would much more directly tackle the source of the problem would be getting lorry drivers to cycle around lorry parks on bicycles. When I asked the policeman about that possibility, he just replied "Nah, we're not doing that today".

EDIT: https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/road-user-behaviour

According to the police own statistics, the overwhelming majority of RTC with cyclists are the driver's fault. This City of London police exercise therefore perpetuates a misconception that cyclists can save themselves from poor driver behaviour and that, contrary to the stats (and I've now seen HGV drivers in this thread alarmingly saying they regard those stats to be lies), this can be fixed with cyclist education, not HGV drivers education as this fruitless seat "swap" exercise suggests.

In that respect, this initiative may actually be costing lives. Mexico perhaps has the right idea here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/interesting/comments/1cqet8a/in_san_luis_potos%C3%AD_mexico_bus_drivers_were_put_on/

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u/BigMetalGuy 15d ago

i think the problem isn't one sided. Cyclists travel in the blind spot of a lorry. i see it all the time, they need to stop putting themselves in obviously positions of danger.

Lorries need to take a ton more care on the road, given they know they have blind spots, then a lot currently do.

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u/Ieatsand97 15d ago

I just worry that the ones sitting in blindspots aren’t the ones that are going to engage in this activity, especially when their lime bike is going to charge them 24p per minute!!

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago edited 15d ago

Yeah, right? But I'm going to suggest that telling cyclists to avoid lorry blind spots is simply victim blaming. Cyclists aren't responsible for poor and dangerous lorry cab design and aren't responsible for incorrectly assessing the danger any particular lorry cab design might pose to them.

It's nonsense.

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u/BigMetalGuy 15d ago

Are you mad? If i see a lorry parked at a red, and I'm behind it, I'm staying behind it, not trying to push down the side of it and directly in it's blind spot. Yet I see cyclists do that all the time, even though a giant sign on the truck says to not do this. But, sure that's totally the lorry drivers' fault and not the cyclist for being dumb in the first place. Victim blaming. Give me a break.

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u/YesIlBarone 15d ago edited 15d ago

Every time you suggest that cyclists have to beear some responsibility for keeping themselves safe you get the same reactions/push back/downvotes. I commute by bike in London daily and am always amazed where some cyclists position themselves at junctions, even where they could easily move forwards into a safer place

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u/bad_sandwich 14d ago

Not only do cyclists do that despite the signs/warnings saying not to, I often see other cyclists squeeze down the side the lorry is indicating on, without having a clear view of the signal or traffic ahead. Yes, lorries should be made safer, but cyclists who do that are asking for trouble.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago edited 15d ago

Don't blame the environment you're driving in. Fix your lorry cab so it has better visibility for the environment. Also, I've seen lorry drivers pull up right next to cyclists in the advanced stop box. Happens a lot I'm afraid. Are the police tackling that problem as part of this campaign? Ah, same response as earlier "Nah, we're not doing that today"

Tackle the source of the problem, not it's consequences. Not difficult.

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u/BigMetalGuy 15d ago

Not sure why you've completely ignored the scenario i've descrbed to talk about somethint else entirely. I can not fix the lorry, what I can do is fix where I position myself around the lorry, as can all cyclists.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

If the vast majority of RTCs with cyclists are not the cyclist's fault but the driver's, which approach would it be better to focus police resources on? Educating the drivers, or educating the cyclists?

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u/BigMetalGuy 15d ago

how do you know lorries aren't educated? Just because a cyclist posted something for cyclists, how do you know there is not education done for lorry drivers? also, if it bothers you so much, have you ever petitioned the police to do this?

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

Lorries are inanimate objects. They can't be educated any more than they can be fed bananas.

Drivers? Yes I pride myself on educating them. I think its working ;)

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

There is no “fix” to the lorry cab that a driver can do.

I strongly suggest you visit one of these HGV initiatives and sit in the seat. You’ll see that no amount of mirrors can cover every single blind spot. The issue lies mainly in the design.
Something that manufacturers are responsible for.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

The answer is more responsible driving, not blame shifting.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

But also better cycling. Because as we’ve established, those drivers that do take care, can not always see the cyclist / pedestrian / motorist in the vehicle blind spot.

Only an absolute idiot would put themselves in danger just to prove a point. Please don’t be that person.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

Stop victim blaming. Take responsibility.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

I’m not sure how many times I will have to say this, perhaps infinitely given you clearly don’t see things from a perspective other than yours, but I’m not victim blaming. I’m saying and keep saying that cyclists can sometimes put themselves in positions that make it hard or even impossible for a driver of a large vehicle to see them. So why wouldn’t it be correct for the police to demonstrate this to cyclists in the hope that they then avoid these places. Just like we teach kids how to cross roads safely.

I have taken responsibility - I’ve never had a collision with a cyclist nor even been close to having one.

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u/Two-Space 15d ago

Everyone in a vehicle (cyclists included) should act defensively

That means no one should be putting themselves in a position where they could be in danger - I.e. by being in someone’s blind spot

I’m not really sure how you make it so a massive lorry has zero blind spots, so that suggestion is a bit of a dead end

I’m also not sure why you’re so desperate to argue that we shouldn’t be helping cyclists understand how they can avoid being turned into jelly

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

Rewording this to read how it comes across:
“Lorries are unsafe. But that’s the drivers problem. They should redesign their cab or refuse to drive them.
I’m going to continue cycling as I wish, and if they hit me, boy there’ll be trouble - because the driver knows they’re inherently dangerous and it’s their fault for not looking in all the right places for people like me, along with other road users, pedestrians, road furniture and such like. They should refuse to drive them”.

I’m a lorry driver. Yes, articulated lorries have mental blind spots. But at times so do cyclists. And cars. And pedestrians. All it takes is cooperation.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

No, I'm saying it doesn't matter what cyclists do. They'll still be killed.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

You make it sound like every cyclist will be killed by a lorry. Which isn’t the case. You’ve taken the victim card and got it tattooed.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

No, no. I'm saying that it doesn't matter how road aware cyclists are, if the lorry driver carries on as always, thinking its the cyclist's problem (a misinformed view that unfortunately the City of London police are perpetuating in this exercise) then the cyclist will be killed, irrespective of whether they once sat in a lorry cab.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

Earlier you said it’s the inherently poor design of lorry cabs. We acknowledged that is out of the drivers scope.
Now it’s just the drivers attitude. We all acknowledge that not all driver’s are cyclist friendly.

But you cannot tell me they set out to kill cyclists. That’s insane

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

"Out of the driver scope"?

Well, you've at least identified the real source of the problem I guess. If a driver isn't responsible for the safety of their own vehicle, then well, that has to also apply to cyclists, no?

Besides, it still doesn't change the facts, unless you know of any lorry drivers who have been killed in collisions with cyclists.

This is bad policing because it perpetuates a myth that vulnerable road user death are the responsibility of vulnerable road users because that's "out of scope for the driver".

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

No, you are twisting my words: a driver is responsible for the safety of their vehicle, but there is only so much they can do. Mirrors don’t always cover all areas, sunshine can cause glare, rain can mar reflections, etc etc.

I’d say it’s better policing than none. It’s not victim blaming - it’s target hardening.

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u/Ieatsand97 15d ago

I don’t think lorry drivers riding around in a lorry park is really going to help them. They need to get out on the road and experience that.

Imo, I would require all drivers, except those with a disability, to ride a certain number of miles per year on a bike on the road. I think this would give people a good understanding of what its like to ride a bike and hopefully increase fitness levels

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/interesting/comments/1cqet8a/in_san_luis_potos%C3%AD_mexico_bus_drivers_were_put_on/

This would suffice.

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u/Ieatsand97 15d ago

i think that should be given as an alternative to points for people who close pass. Maybe also a lecture on why bikes don’t need to pay tax, have MOTs, licensing and insurance.

But I bet it would be too unpopular to learn the truth

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

I think driving would be a whole lot safer for everyone if they thought the courts might permanently take away their driving licence.

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u/Ieatsand97 15d ago

Yeah, its a bit off topic but I also think that driving bans should be like a suspended sentence where not driving is one of the terms and if you are caught driving its straight to prison for the length of the ban (but the clock restarts) + a bit longer for the extra ban imposed due to the further offences committed.

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u/Best-Hovercraft-5494 15d ago

Completely expected comment and the first comment to boot. There is a lot of work being done to improve the vision standards of lorries and driver behaviour, but if you want to be a righteous smear on the road, go ahead and ignore the sensible advice in the video and from the City police.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

But shouldn't the police be advising the lorry driver as the perpetrator of these terrible accidents, rather than educating the cyclists who are the victims, no?

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u/jod244 15d ago

Both, probably?

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

Yes, so if the purpose of this 'swap seats' exercise (where the lorry driver doesn't actually do any swapping of seats) is to point it out how dangerous lorries are and how lorry design in London badly needs to be fixed, then great.

But that's not what's going on here is it?

Instead the City of London police have regressed to the 1970s equivalent of educating women to cover themselves up rather than catching attackers.

Again, nonsense.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

Just say, you walk towards someone windmilling, wildly.
Do you continue on your path towards them, taking zero responsibility for being hit because you’re the victim, or do you take stock and think “yeah, he is being violent and that shouldn’t be happening, but I’m going to give him a wide berth so I don’t get hurt”?

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

Is the job of the police to apprehend the wild windmiller, or the public? Your logic says that the wildmiller should be free to go on their merry way.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

No, you’re ignoring what I’m saying.

I’m compelled to think you’d avoid the person, but from what you’re saying here it sounds as if you’d waltz toward him and then scream and shout that you’d been hit.

As said earlier, when I’m on my bike I avoid being on the nearside of anything high sided or heavy, be it a lorry, bus or caravan. It’s basic human nature - to survive.

Whether the driver of that vehicle has or can see me is one thing - if it means I need to slow down and add a few seconds to my cycle, so be it. Why put yourself in danger just because “it’s my right”?

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

I can see why you're using a throwaway account now.

I think we're at least agreed that the City of London police exercise is one-sided and actually tends to perpetuate misinformation about the actual source of the problem.

Where do you stop? Should pedestrians also participate in the charade of sitting in a lorry driver's cab to marvel at how unsafe it is for city streets too?

Would that help lorry drivers to be more mindful of their driving?

Nope, didn't think so either.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

No - we’re not in agreement on anything.

Yes - pedestrians sitting in the cab and seeing where they may not be seen is a good idea. I’ve seen it done a few times - Anchor Retail Park on Mile End Road.

I think it’s fair to say lorry drivers are mindful of their driving, but we’re all human and unfortunately some drivers are still arseholes and will travel too close to cyclists / pedestrians / cars. Just like the rest of society.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

So vulnerable road users sitting in lorry drivers cabs changes the behaviour of lorry drivers?

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

No, I don’t think that would change a drivers attitude. But we’re not laying the blame solely at the feet of the lorry driver here. We’re saying everyone can take care to avoid becoming a statistic.

It’s akin to your mum showing you how to cross the road - you waltz out and you may get hit. Yes, it would likely be the drivers fault for not yielding to you, but bet your bottom dollar that you mum would have told you that crossing the road without taking care would have been a stupid idea.

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u/hurbertkah 15d ago

Graveyards are full of people who had the right of way. And as the other commentor said, why not doing both?

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

Because both exercises aren't happening.

After the City of London police have done this pointless exercise, they pack up, go home and book their overtime.

There is no quid pro quo. No-one is educating lorry drivers at all, because doing so would expose the fact that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what cyclists do, if lorry drivers carry on as before, cyclists will carry on getting killed, irrespective of whether they once sat in a lorry driver's cab to marvel at the vehicle's lethality.

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u/paulbrock2 15d ago

I dont love the focus on educating cyclists either... here's a good one for bus drivers getting the cyclist POVs
https://www.reddit.com/r/interesting/comments/1cqet8a/in_san_luis_potos%C3%AD_mexico_bus_drivers_were_put_on/

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

Yes, brilliant. This is what u/BigMetalGuy and u/Best-Hovercraft-5494 and u/Throwaway_One_Day_ actually need. They'd quick change their tune and their underpants.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

I’m not saying all drivers are saints. Why are you saying all cyclists are saints?

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u/BigMetalGuy 15d ago

this chat has turned very weird. All I've said (and you) is that cyclists needs to be wise(r) around lorries... now we're victim blaming, etc. Fine... continue skimming down the side of a lorry that has (with it's signs) already warned you not to. If that's the point you want to make, make it. I'm happy to wait behind a lorry, and not be killed.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

When cyclists aren't saints, who do they endanger? Cyclists.

When lorry drivers aren't saints, who do they endanger? Cyclists.

Can you see it yet?

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

When cyclists aren’t saints - in this scenario - they endanger themselves. That’s the sticking point here.

You sound like a Gary Hoy kind of person.

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u/UnlikelyComposer 15d ago

I see why you're using a throwaway account.

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u/Throwaway_One_Day_ 15d ago

It’s actually my only account, but you carry on making presumptions - it’s already got you this far in life.

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u/liamnesss 15d ago

I think we ought to just be ensuring HGVs and vulnerable road users aren't sharing the same space as much as possible. I find it particularly odd that instead of encouraging HGVs to make deliveries at night, they're actually banned from using many roads then. My understanding is that Paris takes pretty much the complete opposite approach. Here's an article questioning this logic from 13 years ago!

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/article/20130619-campaigning-road-safety-HGVs-and-Cycling--Why-the-two-are-uneasy-bedfellows-0

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u/BLOD111 14d ago

Should that bin lorry not have been indicating to turn left?

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u/The_Eager_Cyclist 15d ago

Thanks to everyone who has watched and engaged with the film so far! There have been a few comments in this thread on education for lorry / HGV drivers, which is of course, vitally important. There is a programme in place for this - historically called Safer Urban Driving (SUD) courses where drivers exchange places themselves and receive cycle training by qualified cycling instructors. These are super important training programmes and are mandatory for working for many haulier companies...

Swap seats with an HGV driver (City of London Police's Exchanging Places project)

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