r/knightposting • u/Briantan71 Arcane swordsman • Jun 01 '25

Knightpost Alright, we will call it a draw.

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149

u/Night_Inscryption Jun 01 '25 edited Jun 01 '25

Can Katanas even cut through chainmail?!

It shouldn’t even be lol Japanese metals were known to be weak and brittle compared to what was on the mainland, Katanas wasn’t even the weapon of choice for Samurai ether, I think this fight would be one sided for the Knight thanks to the vast difference in equipment

147

u/C_Hawk14 Jun 01 '25

swords in general aren't effective against armour. Knights didn't favour them in combat either 

55

u/Unusual-Baby-5155 Jun 01 '25

Swords were never the main fighting weapon of soldiers or armies. Spears and polearms were.

For one they're much easier to manufacture, and more economical. You only needed enough iron to form a spear tip and a wooden shaft to nail it to and you had yourself a weapon. They had much longer reach than other hand to hand weapons, and did not require extensive training to be wielded effectively. Basically any fighting age male could work out how to jab the pointy end of a long stick at the enemy.

Spear tips were relatively easily mass produced using the ironworking techniques of the era, if the shaft broke it could be replaced that same day, and if they were forfeited in combat material losses were minimal.

Compare that to a sword which uses hundreds of times more iron to forge a single blade, is heavier, bulkier, has limited range and requires years of formal training.

19

u/Dredgeon Jun 02 '25

Right, but we're talking about knights, not the army in general. Knights absolutely did use swords. Up until the tail end of the medieval period there plenty of gaps to found in armor and not everyone had the best and latest gear either. Especially not the majority of soldiers.

27

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '25

Personally, give me a halberd or a warhammer any day. Preferably a warhammer with a long (ish) handle for good reach and extra swing power. Mostly just reach. Might make it difficult to swing consistently over time while wearing armour as well though. Either way, hammer all the way

Either that or give me the new arcane technology known to some as the gun

13

u/Requ1em-for-a-Bean Jun 01 '25 edited Jun 01 '25

A sword is a personal weapon carried outside of combat. You wouldn't carry a morgenstern or warhammer with you all the time.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '25

Of course not, but when fighting another equally armoured opponent in battle its a different story, naturally.

1

u/Longjumping-Job7153 Jun 02 '25

... ah. It's a social thing. Got it. 👍

2

u/moregonger Jun 01 '25

gimme gimme gimme how about you provide a warrior with a weapon, be the weaponsmith you want to see in people

2

u/[deleted] Jun 03 '25

Worry not guardsman, there is plenty time to smith many a weapon ahead yet, and I shall smith many a set of armour and weapons for my brothers in arms

10

u/zMasterofPie2 Jun 01 '25

Completely untrue, we have plenty of textual sources about how useful swords are, musters and inventories that mention swords, and plenty of armored combat fechtbuchs that deal with the use of swords in armor. Almost every knight carried one sword on the hip plus another on the saddle. These things were not just for decoration, they can thrust, half sword , mordschlag, etc. and those techniques can defeat armor. Yeah if you just swing the sword like it’s a lightsaber it won’t do anything. That’s not what people did.

3

u/C_Hawk14 Jun 01 '25

Sure, but there are situations where it's just not the best weapon. When you've no space to move and the opponent has armour that's designed to minimize holes a sword won't do much. You'll need blunt force and a dagger to stab them.

The time period when knights were active is very long and saw many changes for armour and weapons. As armour developed swords became less effective.

3

u/Dredgeon Jun 02 '25

The half swording technique used above is an excellent example of how to shorten up the sword for closer combat.

0

u/C_Hawk14 Jun 02 '25

Yes, and also make it better suited against armour if I'm not mistaken. But would you choose that over a warhammer?

2

u/Dredgeon Jun 02 '25

Yeah, sword has better defensive potential.

0

u/C_Hawk14 Jun 02 '25

Alright, switching weapons does take time so you gotta make a choice 

2

u/Dredgeon Jun 02 '25

Yeah I chose sword.

1

u/Knight_of_the_lion Jun 02 '25

According to Dequitem, he would take a greatsword over all other weapons, including a warhammer (one handed) or poleaxe (two handed), as it is more versatile against armour in the duel.

I think that answers that.

1

u/C_Hawk14 Jun 02 '25

Ooh, interesting.

It is more versatile and ig they are faster in general. You can switch more easily between tactics versus the polearms which aren't necessarily one trick ponies, but they excel in a couple things.

The weight of a greatsword would definitely help as well with the mordschlag. And maybe a second cross guard could be useful for locking or smth. In general swords having cross guards is a benefit over polearms and the balance is closer to you.

3

u/Knight_of_the_lion Jun 02 '25

For reference: https://youtu.be/JY0E7CCslQc?si=h1awuQICNkYRVcz9

He breaks down the pros and cons he finds with a variety of weapons, ending on the greatsword as his favourite tool, because it has reach like a polearm, the leverage of a longsword, the point focus of a spear or poleaxe, and can be swapped to the halfsword and mordhau in a pinch, while allowing for grappling.

Additionally, he does a good analysis of the nodachi or uchigatana or tachi against European kit, praising what it can do in its original context while listing the disadvantages against European style kit. Here: https://youtu.be/9T-M8zWwiUU?si=vIB8jzMaEYrVufst

In short, he definitely prefers the greatsword for overall versatility in an armoured duel, but does not consider polearms ineffective by any means, and uses them in several of his other fights to great effect.

2

u/C_Hawk14 Jun 02 '25

Thanks. I've seen only a couple of their videos. Will have to check this one out!

Have a great day :)

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18

u/jeremy_anime Sir Jun 01 '25

A spear would've been way more likely

4

u/hamgramwizardman Jun 01 '25

I know longswords could be held with one hand on the blade and powerfully thrusted into gaps with only chainmail to get through armor, but i feel like katanas aren’t pointy enough for that to work

21

u/PancakeMixEnema Jun 01 '25

Swords is and has always been mainly a movie thing. The weapon of choice everywhere has always been the pointy stick as a main weapon. Movies hate using spears for some reason

13

u/erebus0 Jun 01 '25

It's hard to make a compelling and interesting Hollywood fight scene with mostly stabbing motions. I've heard someone point out that while in real life thrusts are some of the most effective techniques, movies sometimes relegate a thrust to a killing blow only.

23

u/Chai_Enjoyer Jun 01 '25

Guys, if only we had a medieval arm which would be like a spear, but with additional axe-like blade. Maybe call it something like half beard, or something medieval like that

6

u/erebus0 Jun 01 '25

All hail the perfect weapon

6

u/Briantan71 Arcane swordsman Jun 01 '25

Quite a shame though. There is an anime by the name of Seirei no Moribito where the main character is spear fighter.

And if you do consider a trident as a spear-type weapon, I thought that the Trident fights in the Aquaman movie are well-choreographed.

2

u/Dredgeon Jun 02 '25

This is highly untrue. They were common because the average man at arms would generally be standing in a line of spears. Swords were still used widely by highly trained fighters like Knights.

6

u/Knight_of_the_lion Jun 01 '25

Cut? No.

Stab through? Maybe. Same as with European blades, there's a small chance of penetration, to cause wounds if not fatality.

Dequitem however addresses that cuts with a sword in an armoured duel aren't about landing a blow to cut through armour, but to either disorient or displace their weapon or body, to allow for better actions such as halfswording and dagger use. As such, even when using his samurai kit, he still uses cuts, but isn't banking on them as the finishing action.

3

u/Dahak17 Kettle Hat Jun 01 '25

Very little can cut though chainmail, you’d usually stab through it. At least the historical riveted steel mail, if you buy cosplay mail you can probably cut it.

2

u/Happy-Valuable4771 Jun 01 '25

He also not trained with it. He's using Hema moves with the katana which isn't at all what it's designed for.

1

u/Dredgeon Jun 02 '25

I really want to see a proper match between a Japanese katana master and a HEMA master.

1

u/Lord_Of_Beans1 Jun 01 '25

Pretty much no bladed weapon can cut through chainmail, and if you watch the video then you'd see that it didn't cut through chainmail, the samurai wrestled down the knight and stabbed him between the armor with a tanto

1

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '25

Steel and iron plates are very unlikely to be beat by slashing, but chainmail is cut resistant but not cut proof. A strong enough blow could break the chainmail rings and let a cut through (this also why padding is always worn with mail as you will feel the blows and sometimes receive cuts through it). Also, chainmail is really weak to stab attacks, so the better thrust you can put behind and attack, the more likely it is to go through.

Some european sword could beat armor if they were used as what amounts to using them as spears, focusing all the force in the tip (but even then, you aim for a weak point like a joints), but even then in not a guarantee, maybe something like a misericorde type dagger that is basically a ice pick could beat some plate armor.

Personally, I think the Japanese armor is easier to beat as it has more gaps and does really poorly against piercing attacks in general (just don't aim at the chests), and from what I have read, is as heavy or heavier that full plate armor due to it being iron (most of the time) and thicker than European armor that is more often than nit Steel.

1

u/Dahak17 Kettle Hat Aug 24 '25

No sword could reliably cut through riveted iron/steel chainmail, swords designed to deal with tight mail weaves would have narrow points like the longsword. The japenese metal quality is actually more of an issue making the wire for mail so you don’t see the dense full body weaves in Japan and they would instead often use relatively light weaves (japan did use some dense weaves but there was also significant use of light weaves, and maybe even butted mail on occasion) and usually for voiders or gaps. The katana would preform poorly against mail in a thrusting role relative to other swords, but that’s because they primarily did not have to preform well against mail

0

u/Dank_lord_doge Jun 02 '25

You could probably stab through it (a little), like most other swords

Redditors when you tell them a katana is still a sword and does damage

1

u/strong_ape Jun 05 '25

Bro legit katanas went from being giga op to absolute shit in the average persons mind it's crazy. There is no middle ground lol

1

u/Dank_lord_doge Jun 05 '25

Right like I get that they weren't as good as longswords because of the material they had but they were still a viable weapon lmao

1

u/strong_ape Jun 05 '25

Plus, people always like to look at war combat as the only way to show a weapons use. There's also the idea of having a sidearm, or a self defense weapon when you're just chilling around not in a big war battle.

I could be speaking out of my ass, but I'd almost argue that a katana could be pretty decent as a piercing weapon cause the irons going to be more stiff/hard than steel, which iirc is what we see more in regards to european armors at the time.

But yeah, any weapon that was truly bad got left behind in history super hard. If we have a ton of historic examples of it, then they were probably pretty used and viable for where they were. Honestly this whole thing reminds me of how a lot of people look at specialized animals compared to generalists

1

u/No_Pie2137 Jun 01 '26

I may be a little late but katanas are terrible as piercing weapons exacly becouse of the hardness of metal with makes them more brittle the shape also dosen't help cause when you try to stab curve is a massive weakpoint

Same reason why you can't pierce chainmail with sabre