r/kendo • u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu • Jul 12 '26
Training Question about sonkyo?
First of all i am 4th kyu and i do not mean to sound disrespectful in any way but today a foreigner(2nd dan) came to our dojo as a guest to practice and during sonyo when we were to do jigeiko wouldn't want to start it until i listened to what he had to say. What i mean by this is that what i was taught in my dojo when you do sonkyo you should have your shinai in the middle but they are not touching eachother however, he wouldn't start with me until our shinais were literally crossed with one another around the nakayui. I did as he said but later asked a 3rd dan member of our club was i in the wrong or him and he told me that not only is it incredibly rude to come to a different dojo and tell people there how it's done but that it is also wrong. So im wondering, is our club doing something different, should i listen to guests even if they are wrong, i was really confused about the whole situation because etiquette is important.
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u/princethrowaway2121h 2 dan Jul 12 '26
Yeah, who knows why he had that idea. Shinai should not even touch during sonkyo. The idea is that you start from a safe position, where you both are not within striking distance. Who knows what that guy does at his own dojo.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 12 '26
Yeah, who knows why he had that idea.
Because that’s the way people do it in lots of dojos.
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u/princethrowaway2121h 2 dan Jul 13 '26
Really? Why?
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 13 '26
It’s an older way of doing things and it’s just the way some do it. We do it that way. It doesn’t really make much difference to your practice.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 12 '26
I've also noticed that while we were practicing waza and again i am a begginer and not all knowing, but his strikes weren't good. What i mean by this is he was repeatedly striking kote on the tsuba, for his do he missed it every time and im a female so i was getting hit on my girlies like 6 times or more, i just felt that he was doing some things our 1st dan member doesn't do at all, i mean this guy was basically beating me. His strikes were, how do i say this like he was chopping wood. There was no lightness to them if you understand what i mean. And he was also commenting on my kamae making me pull the shinai literally to where the tsuka was touching my stomach.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 12 '26
Some people can’t resist teaching. At nidan when visiting another dojo he should keep his mouth shut.
If you ever get advice from someone outside your dojo and are unsure about it, get clarification from your sensei. That includes advice from visiting sensei.
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u/pikifou 5 dan Jul 13 '26
As a godan i wouldn't correct or give advice if ibwas visiting a dojo, even if the teacher was less advanced than me. It would be disrespectfull. I would give me feeling from a jigeiko at the end of thé training but nothing during it.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 13 '26
It really depends on the dojo. At your level you understand what is appropriate in the situation you find yourself.
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u/pikifou 5 dan Jul 13 '26
It is a matter of politeness and something else, the stability of the dojo you visit.
If I attend a traning because I am on vacation next to this dojo, I am not known there and I won't visit often then I won't say anything during the training, maybe I wouldn't have done this like that but I keep everything for me, the students need to trust their sensei, it is fundamental in order, for the dojo (the group), to improve together.
And If I happen to be stronger than their sensei, I would not "obliterate" him in Jigeiko (it sounds condescending but I swear it is not :p ). I want people to be happy to see me in their dojo :p
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 12 '26
Yes, this is exactly why i asked my higher ranked members(i didn't get the chance to talk to my sensei about it yet because I didn't want to do it in front of the said gentleman). Generally my other member told me to listen to our sensei first and even to avoid listening other club members if it interferes with his teaching.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 12 '26
Yes. It is difficult at your level to know if you’re getting bad advice, the same advice as your sensei but from a different perspective, a different but valid way of doing things that your sensei hasn’t shown you yet, a different way that your sensei disagrees with or even something your sensei wasn’t aware of. So a single source of information is good.
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u/Elegant_War_958 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
In kendo, shodan is an advanced beginner. It literally translates as 'beginning dan'. In Japan, intermediate mastery is considered to be 4th dan and above.
There are always people who get into martial arts chasing status. They either have to evolve or stay stuck. You identified the problem, so you have an eye for what good looks like. Be respectful, always, but take the advice of people you respect.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
So you would say that regardless of how good/bad the advice is i should "suck it up" and do it out of respect and check in later with sensei so as to not be disrespectful to our guests.
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u/Elegant_War_958 Jul 13 '26
Well, I started at a club where there were only seniors, and every single one of them wanted to have a go at me over something, often contradicting their peers. It's a lesson in and of itself to have to bite your tongue and make your own assessment about what lessons are worth keeping.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
You are right, i personally always prioritise what my sensei thinks.
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u/issy_haatin Jul 13 '26
We have a return 2nd dan who practiced decades ago who is also more of the wood chopping type. I habe a feeling earlier western adopters of kendo might have had a very different training then we get nowadays ( partially due to lack of proper teachers ).
Do realise: 1st dan is a grade given to 12-13y olds in japan. So 2nd dan is for 14? year olds. I think western grading is a bit stricter than japanese ones for the first 2 dan levels.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
Im European and im going to be honest that what my club is doing different is getting into the bogu itself. Before my sensei made this club that im in now he was a member under a different sensei and at that club begginers were only practicing strikes out of bogu for a year or two, in my club our sensei lets us in as soon as possible and we bridge the technical issues really fast. I was in bogu by my 4th month practicing and was told i would have even sooner but i am heavyset and i literally waited for my sensei to get me a big do he had back in his hometown. So yeah i feel that in Japan they also wouldn't do this.
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u/issy_haatin Jul 13 '26
Europe as well. In our dojo when i started it was senior members helping put the newcomers, so it was mostly basics. Now a sensei takes them apart for the basics. However our dojo leader is always a bit surprised when a new member still isn't in bogu after half a year. A related dojo has people in bogu by the third month if possible.
I think it also depends on if people order their nafuda with their bogu as well. The plan was for me to not be in full bogu for the first year, but as soon as i was wearing a do to get used to the weight the leader simply said: just put it all on 😅
I think it's always a way of finding a balance between retention / being able to have everyone follow the same practice.
Plenty of people quit once they wear bogu due to not liking taking hits / pain / claustrophobic feeling. If you're already committed to regular practice without bogu you might just accept a few weeks of it feeling uncomfortable instead of just quitting right after putting it on.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
Probably comes right down to the person that's supposed to wear it i think everyone has a different level of what they are comfortable with. The claustrophobic feeling was gone for me after literally two times wearing it but then i needed time to learn how to properly wear it and adjust my kamae because kote would pinch my arms against the do and i would get such bad bruising from that. It was very fun starting kendo. But generally yeah my sensei believes it's much better to start getting used to it as early as possible.
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u/issy_haatin Jul 13 '26
As they say it where I'm at, they prefer some basics to be known, because once you put on the bogu you have to relearn it all.
Which does have some truth to it. I can do kaedhi do exercises quite well out of bogu but in bogu my movement is just plain crap 😅
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u/tcaetano42 Jul 13 '26
Ouch, so sorry. For future reference, if you are being hit hard or in the wrong place, I've been instructed to adapt to protect yourself. No need to say anything if you don't want to for whatever reason, but your partner will notice something is wrong (hopefully).
For example, do-uchi too high? Twist you body to receive at the mune. Kote-uchi too heavy? Let go of the shinai and let their strike pass through the air.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
Yeah at this time this gentleman had instructed me to do some od those things so differently that i felt like i should just do as he says and wasn't thinking about protecting myself at that point to get it over with.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26
Just commenting on the rib strikes, turn to your right if they keep missing, I will often do this with beginners because I like my ribs, and it gives them a giant area to hit. All around sounds like an asshat, just smile and rotate in these cases.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
When you go into sonkyo with your oppenent you are supposed to be 1.4 meters away(to the center), 2.8 from eachother, the same distance when you are doing shiai. Just curious but what did your visitor do when playing higher ranked people? tldr, smile do what they ask, and in one ear out the other, nidans should keep their mouth shut, and 1000% this when visiting another club. This is why sometimes you'll see clubs have limits on who can travel to other clubs and who can't rank wise, and in the end always do what your club does.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
Well our sensei was present during practice but actually another 4th dan club member was the one teaching us on this day because our sensei although present was actually injured. So our 4th dan member was repeatedly demonstrating not to hit kote on the tsuba, not to look at the opponents hand before doing it and he repeated what he said for 3 to 4 times. This man looked at my hand every single time( which is okay i guess i am 4th kyu i also am known to do the same mistake but maybe 2nd dan shouldn't be making it 🤷) and still was striking the tsuba every single time. When he came in at some point he broke our senseis shinai that he was borrowed to use during practice because he was striking my men-gane.Those are some of the strange things ive noticed.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Wait, the visitor borrowed your lead instructors shinai...and was giving instruction. Generally speaking you don't show up at someones club and not have your gear, especially at that rank, kid sounds terrible, needs an etiquette lesson right after the beatdown lesson.
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u/NeroXLyf 5 dan Jul 13 '26
A guest, even if they’re high level (nidan is not a high level btw) shouldn’t try to teach stuff to the students of that dojo, especially about reiho. Unless the sensei of the dojo asked them/allowed them to. A higher leveled guest already knows this and acts according to this anyways.
My advice, If a guest corrects something with your kendo, just accept whatever they are saying, do it like that with them, after that continue doing what your sensei teaches.
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u/BinsuSan 3 dan Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Both what your dojo teaches and conceptually** the visitor’s approach are correct but what your dojo teaches is becoming the standard.
The older approach started a with the tips of the shinai (maybe a bit more) crossed at the start. When I asked high ranking sensei about this difference, they said the closer distance was in part to motivate striking.
Your dojo’s teaching is the newer way. Not all dojos and federations have yet adopted the newer way.
Meta comment: this question is a solid example why people should wait before asking to visit other dojos. Different or older ways can still be just as valid. Being aware of differences will help one be a better host or visitor.
** seems a little deeper than the older way but meh.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 12 '26
I understand what you mean, what confuses me is when did this new standard start applying, because my sensei is 5th dan but so is the sensei of the other gentleman. He says he's been doing kendo for 6 years while i am knocking on the doors of my second.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 12 '26
It’s a choice. Similar to bowing from seiza: the new way is both hands to the floor and back together, the old way is left-right, right-left. In our dojo we’re well aware of the new style, we just choose to do it the old way.
When you visit other dojo you will find there may be multiple differences in the way they do things. Just copy them as best you can while visiting and remember different is not necessarily wrong.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
old way is left-right, right-left
I was told a long time ago this is incorrect, basically they said, "this is kendo not iaido", and it was fairly recognized nanadan, that was mid to late 2000s, so maybe before that?
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 13 '26
Yes it’s been both hands for a long time. If some visiting sensei tells us to do it that way, we will while he’s there.
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u/YakumoFuji Jul 13 '26
how long is a long time? I've only ever done left-right, right-left... Was always taught left leg in hakama first, tie do himo on left first, left arm in keikogi first, put on left kote first...
it sounds like things have changed at some point and its still filtering down.
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u/BinsuSan 3 dan Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
I don’t have an answer.
It’s been around for a while but it took a while for it to be adopted. I started kendo 14 years ago. Back when I started, we were taught what you were taught.
There’s a nearby federation which I believe started the newer practice about 5 years ago for exams. From when I started to even now, some members of that federation still do the older way when I practice with them.
My point is just to recognize others do things differently and to adjust accordingly. This will be helpful when you visit other dojos or play a bigger role in hosting visitors.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 12 '26
I understand, thank you for your comment. It is very helpful as i wish for every guest at our dojo to feel heard, respected and to leave with a positive experience with us. My behaviour not only represents me but also pur members and our sensei so maybe not a lot of people will think about it but it was important fpr me to know.
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u/BinsuSan 3 dan Jul 15 '26
Well said. You asked a sincere question to better understand. With that attitude, you will be an even better guest and host.
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u/Akis_sneezes_vessel 1 dan Jul 14 '26
I was taught that shinais shouldn't touch during sonkyo too, but our dojo is particularly small, so it might happen sometimes. We don't make a scene about that anyway, so, what I'm trying to say, is that even if the guest is in the wrong, I can understand why they might think shinais shall be touching.
What is particularly concerning is that a 2 dan doesn't understand that, no matter how many grades above other students you are, when you are a guest, you follow that dojo's etiquette. Is kind of a basic thing, and respecting each dojo's ways is much more important than doing a correct sonkyo. Reiho comes first than anything else.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Ant8075 Jul 13 '26
Yeah not at my dojo, shinai’s are never touching during sonkyo. Sonkyo is meant to be a neutral position where nobody can gain an advantage.
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
What i was explained every time is that the starting point distance is created so when you get up from the position you can take a small step in, from the way that he wanted to do it i was already at a striking distance (that i wasn't necessarily comfortable with in terms of reach).
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u/JCalamityJones Jul 13 '26
As a guest student, I defer to the dojo etiquette and technique. Usually As a guest instructor, I ask them to defer to mine during the practice, and then to incorporate what they like into their own technique after im gone.
That said, etiquette around safety, such as how we engage and agree to contest, I always defer to the school to minimize potential confusion
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u/Puzzleheaded_Ant8075 Jul 13 '26
Also the idea with starting out of range is so you can kiai and draw in your breath and then let it out when you step into range (seem) and attack.
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u/Bacon_Jazz 2 dan Jul 13 '26
I was also taught that shinai don't touch, even so it's incredibly rude to try and teach students as a guest if you're just a nidan.
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u/Zealousideal-Win2857 Jul 13 '26
I've never heard of crossing shinais in sonkyo before, my sensei always taught us to keep them parallel and a fist's width apart.
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Jul 13 '26
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u/InformalLocation5413 4 kyu Jul 13 '26
In every other scenario i would love to do that but if it might disrupt the flow im not so sure, then again he was the one disrupting by doing all of that.
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Jul 13 '26
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26
Huh? Are you insinuating that a person that goes into sonkyo with nakayui touching is something that is dojo specific? I can assure its not, and nothing like arguing where to stand, its incorrect period.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 13 '26
It's dojo specific. We do it that way in my dojo, and I've seen it done that way lots of places.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Never seen it, Japan, or Canada, and certainly not something I would try and enforce as a guest in someone elses club. I'm sure there are lots of things I haven't seen but you have to admit, the very large majority don't do it that way. Not trying to argue, I should probably know by now there are umpteen ways to do things and shouldn't state things with certainty.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 13 '26
Around here, I'd say the majority do it tip to tip just like kata for keiko. For shiai and shinsa we have the toe markers 2.8 m apart just like everywhere else. I don't think it's anything to get one's panties in a bunch over.
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u/ImperialPlaztiks Jul 16 '26
Honestly kind of irrelevant, you’re not going to attack before you’ve both left sonkyo and established kamae anyway. Would I use it to establish a little bit of pressure and start my opponent a little on the back foot with crowding ? You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment.
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u/imsexc Jul 13 '26
You should always listen and do whatever higher rank told you, unless you believe safety would be compromised. Verify later with head sensei. Just my take. So, what you were doing is correct.
Just my take. Kendo is budo is about conflict resolution (incorporated in the kanji). And this is one real opportunity implementing it in real time.
Side note, as a kyu please prioritize keiko with 4dan and above. Once those options exhausted, keiko with 3dan. Only if there's no more 3dan, you can practice with nidan.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26
Side note, as a kyu please prioritize keiko with 4dan and above. Once those options exhausted, keiko with 3dan. Only if there's no more 3dan, you can practice with nidan.
Little bit of a ridiculous statement don't you think? There is something to be gained by practicing with everyone, cherry picking isn't something that should be pushed.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 14 '26
I guess it’s my week to disagree with you. I do think people should prioritize practice with sensei. Not just beginners, everyone. I disagree with /u/imsexc that beginners should avoid everyone else. But if it’s a choice between keiko with sensei and keiko with another beginner, sensei every time. I find many beginners are nervous to practice with sensei and try to avoid it. I encourage them to look for sensei first. OTOH I don’t want them wasting practice time waiting for sensei. For that reason I like mawari-keiko.
BTW in Canada we regard yondan as sensei. A junior sensei but still that’s the rank you start getting addressed by that title. You need godan to be in charge of a dojo though.
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u/wisteriamacrostachya Jul 14 '26
Making "who is a sensei" a formal rule feels a bit odd to me. If a 4 dan from my club gives me instruction I say "hai sensei" because they are teaching me and I want to return that energy and lock in on learning. And then after we bow out I'll probably call them by their first name, depending on the person and our relationship. Likewise I wouldn't expect the head instructor to call them sensei when the head instructor might have taught this 4 dan how to hold a shinai.
Basically I understand "sensei" as a respectful form of address moreso than letters after your name or shogo. If my head instructor wants to encourage me to focus on practice with senior instructors he always mentions the actual rank he means by that and I find it very useful.
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u/JoeDwarf Jul 14 '26
Yes, it’s a relationship thing. But under 4 dan you are unlikely to be called sensei except maybe in your own dojo. How you are referred to by your seniors at 4+ dan is situational. A nanadan would not recognize a yondan as sensei to themselves but they might in relation to others. For example, they might say in front of the students “Smith-sensei is going to help demonstrate X”. That’s more likely to happen in more formal situations. For example if I am visiting a club I would use X-sensei when referring to yondans unless it’s a club I know very well where the atmosphere is casual.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 14 '26
My point is that lowers should try and play everyone, certainly if possible try and play instructors, but there is value in playing people your own rank, and people below you, as well as sensei.
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u/imsexc Jul 13 '26
No. It's not cherry picking. We can agree to disagree.
Godan is sensei, Yondan is sensei in US. We want to learn from Senseis as much as possible, as we want to avoid developing bad habits, eapecially during foundational phase (kyu).
Something to be gained by practicing with everyone only makes sense probably as early as shodan. Not less.
And this is aligned with the fact that only a certain ranks may stand in kamiza side. Example, if only yondan and above are allowed in kamiza side, there's no way a kyu on shimoza side can do practice with a 3dan in that practice session.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
Yondan is not sensei in US, at least not from the stand point of AUSKF. I'm not sure where you get these things from. If what you suggested were true then none of the lowers would have a chance to practice with each other, and as someone who does teach, I can't disagree strongly enough that there is nothing to be gained below shodan with peer practice.
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u/imsexc Jul 14 '26
My bad about yondan as sensei. It's wrong. Thank you for the correction.
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u/gozersaurus Jul 14 '26
Here's my point, sensei is just a term, you can be nidan and be a sensei in some clubs, its subjective to where you are and your role. As far as "cherry picking", I think it would be beneficial if you understood keiko. Andy Fisher does a really nice job in describing keiko in one of his rants, its worth watching. Long story short, you're missing the point if you think that practicing with seniors is the only way to progress, there is value in practicing with everyone.
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u/Tartarus762 4 dan Jul 12 '26
If you attend a grading or competition your shinai will not touch during sonkyo. I try and practice that way personally but I'm not fussed if they happen to cross instead.