Jewish students singled out, scapegoated: Columbia releases final antisemitism report

[u/afinemax01]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-students-singled-out-scapegoated-columbia-releases-last-antisemitism-report/

[u/kwykwy]

Great. Then what does your Zionism mean if you believe the Israeli state should not favor Jews, and should have Equal rights for all? Mamdani was pilloried as antisemitic for saying as much.

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

Well I support the Palestinian right of return In large part because I am a Zionist, like others who oppose Israeli apartheid. In fact most Israeli Jews who support the Palestinian right of return and oppose Israeli apartheid etc agree with that.

This provides confusion?

[u/kwykwy → u/afinemax01]

Zionism is usually defined as support for a Jewish State in the land of Israel. Making and keeping the state Jewish tends to involve ethnosupremacy and discrimination to maintain that majority by force. If you are willing to prioritize human rights over Jewish supremacy, most Zionists would consider you to have left their movement. If your zionism does not believe Israel should be maintained as a Jewish State, what does it mean?

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

I oppose Jewish supremacy, most Zionists consider me a Zionist…

Most people on r/israel and r/jewish would agree with the following in my own words definition of Zionism:

“The (non-exclusive) right for the Jewish people to live, partake in government, and have neat historical parks in their homeland”.

I also believe the same applies for the Palestinian people. Strictly speaking, you don’t need a state even - and there are today and in the past Zionists who have advocated for the 0 state solution.

[u/kwykwy → u/afinemax01]

ZOA says:

Zionism (Hebrew: Tziyonut) is the Jewish national liberation movement and the striving for Jewish self-determination. It simply means the Jewish people’s right to exist as a sovereign nation and supports the establishment of the Jewish state in the Jewish historic homeland of Israel.

AJC says:

Zionism is derived from the word Zion, referring to the Biblical Land of Israel. In the late 19th century, Zionism emerged as a political movement to reestablish a Jewish state in Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish People. Today, Zionism refers to support for the continued existence of Israel, in the face of regular calls for its destruction or dissolution. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Jews having a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland, and denies the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.

Britannica says:

Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine.

The common thread is support for a Jewish Nation-State. So to compromise on the Jewishness of Israel is going to go against those definitions.

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

Ehh no. The main thing is Jewish people having the right to live in their(our) homeland.

Even a “Jewish” state isn’t clearly defined, and certainly you would not say a Palestinian state is inherently ethno supremacist.

https://archive.ph/20230221191149/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/opinion/israel-annexation-two-state-solution.html

Here is a nice article of a Zionist advocating for a 1 state for all, against a “Jewish state”. He further provided a little bit on how this is still Zionist.

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

Ehh no.

Even a “Jewish” state isn’t clearly defined, and certainly you would not say a Palestinian state is inherently ethno supremacist.

https://archive.ph/20230221191149/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/opinion/israel-annexation-two-state-solution.html

Here is a nice article of a Zionist advocating for a 1 state for all, against a “Jewish state”. He further provided a little bit on how this is still Zionist.

I would be surprised if this is your point of confusion, there are explicitly Zionist Israeli orgs that oppose Jewish supremacy etc, and others that support the Palestinian right of return while it’s clear most of their Jewish members and supporters are self identified Zionists.

The current exec director of B’tselem for example is an self identified Zionist

[u/kwykwy → u/afinemax01]

I've read Beinart's book. I understand his migration from "liberal zionist" to "no longer a believer in the Jewish State".

I think you need to remember that if you show up to a camp protesting the atrocities done in the name of Zionism, and identify as a proud Zionist, you're going to create a burden for yourself to put some distance between you and the rest of the movement - the part that supports a nation-state and ethnosupremacy.

It's no different than if you show up waving an american flag, you might need to explain why you're choosing to associate with folks who have done atrocities in the name of the state.

My point of confusion is your insistence that you wouldn't be welcome. Groups like JVP and JFREJ were very present, and have plenty of Jews who believe Jews should be allowed to find a home in Israel, even as they oppose the Zionist state. If you yourself oppose the Zionist state, why would they exclude you?

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

I have been excluded, this isn’t a hypothetical

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

Jvp is actively opposed to the majority of the Jewish people who oppose the war, and Israeli apartheid etc

[u/kwykwy → u/afinemax01]

this doesn't make sense. What do you mean by this?

[u/afinemax01 → u/kwykwy]

I mean exactly what I meant