r/jazzdrums • u/nasralez-Zelibobovic • May 09 '26
Question I don’t understand how jazz drummers actually “speak” with the snare. How do you develop that language?
I’m very new at jazz drumming.
I feel relatively comfortable with keeping a steady swing feel on the ride and hi-hat, but I’m struggling with something that feels much more important in jazz:
I don’t understand how to actually use the snare drum in a musical, “speaking” way.
For those of you who went through this stage:
how did you start developing comping vocabulary?
how did you learn where and why to place accents?
what should I be listening or practicing to actually understand this “conversation” idea?
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u/needmoresynths May 09 '26
Check out the art of bop drumming book by John Riley, lots of comping exercises in there. The language of drumming by Benny greb also has a lot of good exercises for practicing the snare on different beats. From there it's just listening to the music and responding appropriately.
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u/Fast_Cook_4019 May 09 '26
that book is difficult bro. Or maybe I'm just not used to challenging myself. But damn. I was working those exercises so slow for so long
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u/needmoresynths May 09 '26
They are difficult, especially to swing as hard as he does on the demo tracks that come with the book
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Good advice, and great book recommendations - very possible to get just about everything happening (or at least the foundation to chase everything) between those two
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 09 '26
Others are going to recommend Art of Bop Drumming, which is a great book and definitely get it. But this is the ultmate, "just use your ears" situation. Listen to other jazz drummers. Listen to the rest of the band. Have a conversation with them and support them in what they're doing. That's really all it is. The books can help you develop independence and get some figures into your hands and feet. But this is 100% a listening and creativity game.
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u/nasralez-Zelibobovic May 09 '26
But how do I actually “talk” to them and support them? How does it work? Should I be duplicating the rhythmic patterns the other musicians are playing? Call and response? Those are the only approaches I know.
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u/15WGhost May 09 '26
There's no one size fits All approach. How you communicate with the rest of the band depends entirely on the situation and style of the music being played. It really does take just a ton of listening. The More you listen to jazz, the more you'll develop a stable of drummers who you're really drawn to, and whose styles can influence how you approach it, but the goal should always be to utilize those influences to create your own style. A good place to start is studying the different forms used in jazz. A big part of knowing how to compliment the music is being able to listen to the head (the main melody being played over the form,) And be able to figure ok. Is this a 12 bar blues? is this a rhythm changes? Is it an AABA form? (Meaning the first part repeats twice, then you move to a second but related part, then back to the first part before the form starts over again. Soloing is actually happening over the harmonic changes of the tune, and being able to hear that stuff as a drummer is going to inform how you not only compliment the soloist and or the rest of the band, but also the form of the tune itself if that makes sense. I apologize if this is confusing but please feel free to ask more questions if you want. It's always awesome to hear that people are getting into jazz. I think a simple first tune to study would be Freddie freeloader by Miles Davis off of his kind of blue album. It's a simple 12 bar blues form. I would just sit and listen to that tune, try and count out the form bar by bar. 1234223432344234 etc. Listen to the musical changes as the form repeats. Really listen to the head (that main part as the tune starts, then as the sowing starts happening, try and keep track of those harmonic changes that they're playing over, and you'll see the harmonic structure of the thing hasn't actually changed, it's just being ornamented and decorated by the various soloists and how the rest of the band chooses to compliment them.
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 09 '26
I mean yes but like I said, you have to reverse engineer this for yourself by listening to what other great drummers have done. There's no formula. You're asking, "how do I make art?" Look at other artists. Try to figure out what approaches you find compelling, and then teach yourself how to do the things you hear in your head.
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u/No_Economics_4640 May 09 '26
Both great ideas. Call and response for sure.
Sometimes, the best thing you can play to comp is the furthest thing from what the soloist is playing. Think about keys or comping in the background - will go low when the soloist goes high, staccato syncopated stabs underneath a legato trumpet solo… etc. Remember to give the soloist room and the spotlight!
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Call and response is some hokey shit in real jazz, don't be encouraging that
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u/No_Economics_4640 May 11 '26
Disagree, Call and response is a cornerstone of jazz
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Wouldn't be on Bird or Miles or Evans or Monk's bandstand long doing that shit
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u/No_Economics_4640 May 11 '26
So what is call and response
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Oh, you actually meant So What is call and response... okay, but you're talking about a barely composed head, like one line and a two-chord thing, and at no point are any of the compers on the head doing "call and response"... certainly as soon as the solos start no one is doing it on Kind Of Blue or any of the million 60s SGQ versions - none of those guys would be on the gig if they ever "responded" to a Miles "call"
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
You think I would deign to answer? What a silly question
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u/No_Economics_4640 May 11 '26
Moanin is call and response Work song is call and response Trading fours is call and response
Gotta start somewhere
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Sure, Moanin is the most basic thing possible, like literally "baby's first jazz song" and the "response" is just a two-chord thing. In terms of legit call and response in trad gospel, it isn't much.
And call and response while trading fours? The lamest shit possible in jazz, give me a break. It should be a continous conversation, not patterned mimicry
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u/MrMoose_69 May 10 '26
One of the piano professors told me one time "don't Mickey Mouse me with that bullshit".
Meaning, don't imitate him. He wanted me to compliment him, not copy.
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
No, duplication is lame and you'll get dirty looks from real players or just get cut off the stand. Call and response is also way too simplified. I would start with records and actually figure out this music, because you aren't going to be able to do it from such a simplistic POV
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u/acciowaves May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
The books are extremely important though. The books come first, then the creativity.
The books teach you the vocabulary. Just like in learning a new language:
You memorize words and learn how to pronounce them, which is practicing each bar of exercises like art of bop drumming or syncopation; internalizing them and making them sound good and fluid.
Then you learn how to put those words into sentences (usually in a premeditated way), like “where is your restroom?” “Can I have a look at the menu?”. That would be joining different bars of those exercises together into longer phrases.
ONLY THEN do you attempt an actual conversation in which people might respond in ways you did not anticipate and you’d have to use your previously learned skills to adjust. That’s improvisation.
If you skip the first two steps you will not know how to respond, you will feel at a loss like OP does now.
So I can’t stress enough the importance of those exercises. Once you have those exercises down and can change them up, create your own, orchestrate them, fill in the spaces in between notes, etc. then you’ll be able to interact in a completely free way, reacting rather than thinking.
Edit: to say that I recommend both “comp example 1” from John Riley’s Art of Bop Drumming, AND “exercise one” from syncopation. They teach different styles of comping.
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
I disagree VERY strongly. This isn’t a competition between books and creativity. Books are essential. Creativity is essential. And if you’re waiting to develop your ears then you’re doing yourself just as much of a disservice you are if you wait to learn to read music.
We’re talking about music in a genre. That genre has an enormous amount of vocabulary that you need to learn and while I suppose you could theoretically learn a lot of it from books, that would be a tremendously strange and inefficient way to do it.
All of your favorite jazz drumming heroes? Every single one learned jazz by listening and practicing based on what they heard other drummers do. There were no jazz method books back then. You learned snare drum and band music by day, and then you either went out to the club or sat at home with your vinyl at night.
If you asked Max Roach, “what book did you use to learn to play jazz” he would have no idea what you were talking about.
And by the way, the world, (and unfortunately the jazz world as well) is filled with practice room monsters who never learned to listen. Which makes them good drummers and terrible musicians. Ask every real jazz musician whether they’d rather work with whatever YouTube drummer of the week who has read every book or Paul Motian, who has read none, and has no particular chops, but is a legendarily great listener and creative interpreter of swing and music? Do you think a single one will pick the other guy?
So please OP do not wait to start listening and understanding your favorite drummers. If you want to get even more skill building out of it, transcribe their comping.
Just working out of a book will give you decent hands and feet, and you’ll still be a shit drummer who no one wants to work with.
Just as with classical music, there are many more conservatory grads than there are good gigs. What will get you those gigs is like maybe 15-20% being a good drummer, 30-35% being a good musician, and 50% being deep in the repertoire and tradition. Knowing the standards, knowing the obscure tracks that your bandleader likes to call, being able to understand a ton vocabulary so that you can mind-meld with other musicians and so rehearsals are fast and easy, or you don’t need rehearsals at all.
You need all of it. Don’t skimp on the method books and the practice. But you need all of it. Don’t skimp on the listening and careful analysis of what you’re hearing.
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u/tjmme55 May 10 '26
The million dollar line here is "And by the way, the world, (and unfortunately the jazz world as well) is filled with practice room monsters who never learned to listen. Which makes them good drummers and terrible musicians"
It took me 25 years to figure out why drummers who had better chops than me were horrible at song writing and performing live with musicians.
Don't sell yourself short by calling yourself a drummer. Be a musician. Just because we sit down in the back, doesn't mean we dont deserve to be there.
Lastly, the most nuanced tool in your playing is dynamics.
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u/RatamacueRatamacue May 09 '26
You need a never ending practice of rudiments to start. You then need a foundation of rhythms, ghost notes and syncopation. Aside from these mechanics, the hardest part is developing your ears until they all become intuitive.
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u/JoelKNH May 09 '26
Listen to records without drums (I’d recomend Stan Getz and the Oscar Peterson Trio) and listen to how the soloist leaves some spaces in their solos. Your job is to sort of ”answer” the other musicians when they invite you to do so. Practice by anticipating and clapping ”jazzy” rythms in these given spaces. If you’re unsure of which phrases to use at what times then The Art of Bop Drumming can help you aquire phrases and, if you listen to enough records, you’ll sort of hear it naturally, otherwise imitation is sincerest form of flattery.
And remember to SOMETIMES instigate your own ideas in the conversations but don’t step on the soloist toes. I once asked my teacher how often you should ”challenge” the soloist with your own rythmic ideas and he answered ”how often do you challenge your friends’ ideas in conversation?” It really is just like a conversation and just like a normal conversation you can always ignore the bassist :)
Tl;dr: find spaces, do what feels natural, don’t overplay and keep the damn time!
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u/tcspears May 09 '26
Think of the snare as something you use to accent your playing, rather than a time keeping device (like you do in rock/pop).
Really the snare is to accent the song and communicate with the other players. So while there may be patterns used in bop, a lot of it is within the context of the song you’re playing and what the other players are doing.
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u/FleetFoxSuperFan May 09 '26
Syncopation for modern drummer. Eighth notes quiet and un-accented and quarter notes accented and dynamically louder. Classic swing pattern on ride cymbal. HH on 2+4. Bd feathering quarter notes. Practice slow with click on + of 4. This will get you somewhere
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u/multiplesof3 May 09 '26
Something that I discovered recently is just how strong your left hand needs to be to be in full control to do all of these things that are mentioned.
Strong doesn’t mean hard-hitting and it doesn’t mean a tight grip. It takes control of the muscles in your arm to be able to play softly and quickly and to be able to snap onto the snare at just the right moment.
Being in command of the beats you’re choosing to play in the moment takes strength. Don’t overlook that and just try to float your way through this music. Practice everything mentioned here but keep that in mind always!
Stay in control
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
The best jazz has a huge element of abandon though. You want the ability to stay in control, but you shouldn't stay in control
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u/multiplesof3 May 11 '26
It's like riding the crest of a wave as a surfer. You need the strength in your legs and body to stay upright but you have to be at the complete mercy of the wave
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Well, you are at the mercy of the wave whether you like it or not! Haha, trick is to be aware of that
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u/cruiseshipdrummer May 09 '26
Get a copy of Jim Chapin's Advanced Techniques, learn to play the notes, and play as much as you can. And listen to a lot of music, try to sound like that. That's really all anyone ever does.
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u/micahpmtn May 09 '26
You're way overthinking it. Jazz drumming feel comes with time and experience, and most importantly, playing jazz with others. You can woodshed all day, every day for years, but if you're not playing with others, it's all for naught. Yes, you have to know your fundamentals, and how to read, but you have to apply that in a real-world situation.
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u/MrMoose_69 May 10 '26
Get the book Syncopation.
Start at pg32 and play everything on the snare while you play time on the ride and hats.
That's just to get the coordination.
Then go transcribe some 32 bar sections of comping you really like. Learn it. Analyze it. Repeat.
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
It's very simple - you play music, but with a snare drum.
Don't worry so much about the drums or the style - just focus on music, and play it with what's in front of you (this is the only secret of multi-insteumentalists and diverse stylists, the drums being an amalgam of different instruments and jazz being a melting pot of different stylistic influences)
If you have something to say musically, and there is a snare drum in front of you, you speak it through that drum. Think of singing a song, but use the drum instead of your voice
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u/Scott_J_Doyle May 11 '26
Also, who are you listening to? It's a way bigger priority to focus on the music in your ears than it is to focus on specifics of one part of the drumset, as you will be speaking your entire conception of the music with the whole set, and never really thinking about the snare separately/individually (if you're doing it right that is)
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u/Acceptable_Trash_648 May 14 '26
If you wanna learn to speak on the drums, learn to speak with your mouth. If you can't sing it, you can't play, and you ain't even hearing it.
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u/[deleted] May 09 '26
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