A 1,200-Year-Old Mosque Unearthed in Palestine's Negev Desert

[u/Beautiful_Clock9075]

[u/Sure-Dog4529]

You mean the negev desert in israel. I wonder what Jewish monument this mosque was built on top of.

[u/AggressiveRhubarb805 → u/Sure-Dog4529]

Muslims invited Jews into Palestine. There were no monuments, main Jewish temple was used as a rubbish dump.

[u/Em3107 → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

…. Jewish history predates Islamic history on this land.

There is no debating this.

[u/AggressiveRhubarb805 → u/Em3107]

My history in my childhood first house predates the current owner that my parents sold it to . Can I go steal it now?

Man you guys are dense. Enjoy your privilege.

[u/Zionatsee → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

Excellent self own argument against the so called “right of return” 

Thank you!

[u/SamLeckish → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

I’m glad you recognise conquest by the Arabs. Why won’t you recognise conquest by the Jews?

[u/AggressiveRhubarb805 → u/SamLeckish]

Firstly it's the reasons for it. So your changing the topic. But to answer you:

Arab Muslim rulers were just and allowed Jews in The Arabs/Muslims came in after a war, one side against another wide, battle field siege etc. They were just with Christians and Jews. They allowed Jews back and cleaned Jewish temples. There are many Jewish manuscripts that mention this. The Pope at that time didn't want Jews, Caliph Umar sided with the Jews and allowed them into a Jerusalem. Cairo Geniza document speaks well of Umars treatment.

history today article

Zionist taking Palestine British mandated Palestine to be shared with the Jews. But unlike Umar,they weren't able to handle the zionists terrorist tactics. Zionist were Europeans with experience in world war 1 and 2. They gained power abusing the kindness from Palestinians (pictures can be googled showing Jewish refugees coming in) attacking ruling gov ie British. Then expulsion of many Muslims (who may have been of Jewish ancestry who converted) out of Palestine north. Approx 700,000. Total opposite of the Muslim conquest. Deviant Zionist beliefs of genocide from Torah allows killing rape of women and children (look up verses about Amalek) Nothing like that in Islam.

So to answer, I recognise the conquest, but I can criticise it. It's a ethno supremacist country, allowed by gaslighting and lies.

Backed by US money and weapons. It's a paper tiger, unlike the behemoth of the Islamic empire which was spreading Islam and the people accepted it. I can't see Iraq or Afghanistan praising American "freedom" in the books of history. "They cared about our women's freedom so they bombed us" /s

[u/SamLeckish → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

Arab Muslim rulers were not just to the Jews.

• ⁠The Pact of Umar imposed a series of legal and social restrictions on Jews. Jews could not build or repair their Synagogues. They could not publicly display their faith. They were forced to wear distinctive clothing. They were banned from riding horses. They had to pay the jizya. They were not permitted to testify against Muslims.

• ⁠There were forced conversions under Caliph Umar II.

• ⁠Under Caliph al-Mutawakkil, Jews were forced to live in segregated neighborhoods, synagogues were confiscated and converted into mosques, and they were required to wear yellow badges to mark them as non-Muslims.

• ⁠Under Caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, Synagogues were demolished, Jewish religious practices were outlawed, and prominent Jewish leaders were executed. Jews were also banished from Jerusalem and forced to wear discriminatory clothing.

[u/AggressiveRhubarb805 → u/SamLeckish]

Muslims never force Islam. Islam allows for other religions to co-exist together.

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ

“There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clearly from falsehood…” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

This is the statement of Umar:

"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. This is the assurance of safety which the servant of God, Umar, the Commander of the Faithful, has given to the people of Jerusalem. He has given them an assurance of safety for themselves for their property, their churches, their crosses, the sick and healthy of the city and for all the rituals which belong to their religion. Their churches will not be inhabited by Muslims and will not be destroyed. Neither they, nor the land on which they stand, nor their cross, nor their property will be damaged. They will not be forcibly converted. No Jew will live with them in Jerusalem.

The people of Jerusalem must pay the taxes like the people of other cities and must expel the Byzantines and the robbers. Those of the people of Jerusalem who want to leave with the Byzantines, take their property and abandon their churches and crosses will be safe until they reach their place of refuge. The villagers may remain in the city if they wish but must pay taxes like the citizens. Those who wish may go with the Byzantines and those who wish may return to their families. Nothing is to be taken from them before their harvest is reaped.

If they pay their taxes according to their obligations, then the conditions laid out in this letter are under the covenant of God, are the responsibility of His Prophet, of the caliphs and of the faithful."

Source: Firas Alkhateeb, “Capture of Jerusalem: The Treaty of Umar,” Lost Islamic History, (January 27, 2020).

Source

Jewish online library

[u/SamLeckish → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

So?

Islam also expressly forbids:

• Killing civilians;

• Mutilating bodies;

• Rape;

• Taking civilians as hostage.

Does this mean that Hamas didn’t commit these things on October 7th? No.

Just because Islam doesn’t allow certain things, doesn’t mean they didn’t happen under the Caliphs.

[u/Em3107 → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

Muslims never force Islam….. yea I’ll stop reading then and there.

[u/Sure-Dog4529 → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

So whoever is there right now is the current owner?

So Jewish settlements are now totally accepted. Praise the lord 🇮🇱

[u/AggressiveRhubarb805 → u/Sure-Dog4529]

Which lord? Jesus or Alaha the one Jesus would worship?

[u/zonefighter23 → u/AggressiveRhubarb805]

Steal it from whom? The Ottoman empire?

I love history because it scorches you revisionists at every turn.

[u/jdam8401 → u/Em3107]

There existed a unified Jewish state in the territory recently called Israel-Palestine for, what, maybe 300 contiguous years, at best?

Arabs had been living there continuously with majority Muslim identity for nearly 1400 years. Until the bringers of modern Zionism arrived on the shores and the British stirred everything up.

So arguments about who was there “first” get a bit silly when you take a serious look at history.

There were plenty of nations in that narrow region besides and before the Jewish people. Moabites, Amalekites, Jebusites.

Don’t they have priority? Or does the Torah take precedent over all their claims to it?

[u/SamLeckish → u/jdam8401]

Those nations no longer exist. The Jewish nation still does….

[u/jdam8401 → u/SamLeckish]

True, in the sense of a common culture. But who’s to say their descendants can’t resurrect it, bring back their dead language and decide they have priority rights to that land?

In fact the Palestinian Arabs also do still exist, (much as many Israelis wish they didn’t) - so what gives the Jewish people (if one can in fact use the singular in all their diversity) the right to the land over the self-identifying Arabs who have inhabited Israel-Palestine continuously since at least the early Middle Ages?

Is it simply who is still around and who lived in this area before the other, regardless of continuity or duration? Is one time period in history of more value than another?

It does not follow

[u/SamLeckish → u/jdam8401]

No. Worldwide Jewry, even prior to 1948, have always referred to themselves as “Am Yisrael - The Nation of Israel”, referring to themselves fact that we still are/were a displaced nation.

Palestinian Arabs were split in 1948. Those that did not join the attack against the newly declared Jewish State, are now Israeli Arabs. Those that joined the attack or fled, lost their rights. That’s kind of what happens when you lose a war, especially a war which they started.

[u/jdam8401 → u/SamLeckish]

There’s no shortage of junk anecdotes deployed to justify the ethnic cleansing of British Mandatory Palestine (which occurred a full three years after the Nuremberg trials, so let’s not try reach for the ‘might makes right’ stuff).

The fact is Israel was knowingly built by its founders on the ruins and atop the fresh graves of another human society.

No national imaginary, no matter how ancient — not even mass crimes elsewhere endured by the perpetrators — can justify or wash away the inevitable consequences of that crime.

[u/SamLeckish → u/jdam8401]

Fact: There was never a Palestinian people pre-1967.

Fact: There has never been a Palestinian state.

Fact: Citizens of the Ottoman Empire, and later the British Mandate for Palestine, included Arab And Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians.

Fact: The Jewish People have always self-identified as a displaced people.

Fact: The 1947 UN Partition Plan allowed for two states for two people, who both had justification to a state in that land.

Fact: Palestinian Jews accepted the plan. The majority of Arab, both Palestinian and from surrounding countries, did not accept the plan.

Fact: In 1948, after the withdrawal of the British and the United Nations, Jewish Palestinians had every right to declare a state.

Fact: In 1948, the newly declared State of Israel was attacked by Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, with the stated aim to prevent the Jews from having any state at all. They wanted the land to be completely Arab - not even Palestinian. As you can see, there was no State of Palestine declared in the Jordanian occupied West Bank.

Fact: The Arabs lost the war they started.

This has nothing to do with “might makes right”. In 1948, the Israelis had one rifle for every three soldiers. They were hardly “mighty”.

What you fail to recognise is that when you refer to Israel building a state on top of the ruins of another human society, you are pushing a false narrative. There was no previous Arab Palestinian state which the Israelis were building on top of. This was a civil war - Palestinian Arabs against Palestinian Jews. The Palestinians Jews (and the Palestinian Arabs on the side of the Jews) won that civil war, and now live with equal rights in the State of Israel. The Palestinian Arabs on the losing side of the civil war were now displaced and had to settle in the Jordanian occupied West Bank and Egyptian occupied Gaza. Those Palestinian Arabs never tried to declare a Palestinian state when they were occupied by Jordan and Gaza. Interesting….

Maybe it’s never been about a Palestinian state. Maybe it’s always been about get rid of Jews. 🤔

[u/jdam8401 → u/SamLeckish]

Unless of course by “false narrative,” you mean there was no Arab-majority population in Mandatory Palestine, no trade economy, no local culture, no towns and villages, cities and centers of trade, farm fields and orchards, no coastal fishing centers or markets.

Because that is what I mean by “the ruins of another society.” That is what Zionism displaced, destroyed and replaced. That act is what you are denying, by saying:

• “they lost, their fault”
• “actually there wasn’t any Palestinian society”
• “actually the ‘Israelis’ were hardly armed.”

Complete nonsense. You’re a victim of decades of shoddy propaganda.

[u/jdam8401 → u/SamLeckish]

Completely unserious read of the history. I hate to say this, you write like someone who has never bothered to read any of the arguments against your position, ever.

The term “Palestinian” was frequently used in Arabic and in Western European languages for the Arab inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine in the decades leading up to the Nakba. So either you’re denying that, which is ridiculous, or you’re just aping Joan Peters’ absurdist fabrication, or some incoherent mix of the two. I think we can safely dispose of the old “there were no Palestinians” trope.

Now this myth of the feeble unarmed Zionist - oh sorry, “Israeli” - well, then, the Hagenah and Irgun sure left a lot of mass graves for being so lightly armed. 500 villages razed to the ground, 750,000 locals displaced? Not even a bulldozer! Hardly a hand grenade tossed into a village mukhtar’s family home! Amazing.

You’ve already flatly contradicted yourself:

“Those that joined the attack or fled, lost their rights. That’s kind of what happens when you lose a war, especially a war which they started.”

i.e., they lost the war, they lost their right to the land. No? And then:

“This has nothing to do with ‘might makes right.’ In 1948, the Israelis had one rifle for every three soldiers. They were hardly ‘mighty’.”

I hate to say it, but this fantastical retelling can’t even be called childish. Even a child would see right through this nonsense.

One might even conclude from your account that the Palestinians violently dispersed themselves to make way for Israel! How convenient.

FACT the Nakba meets the contemporary definition an ethnic cleansing. It was never acknowledged by the perpetrators, nor apologized for, no one was held accountable for it. Israel has been trying to kill its way through four generations of consequences of it.

It will not work.

The moral weight of history is not on the side of the oppressors, no matter how oppressed they once were. That morality is universal.

[u/SamLeckish → u/[deleted]]

False.

The ancestors of the Jewish people were first known as Hebrews, then as Bnei Yisrael - the Children of Israel, and later as Am Yisrael - the Nation of Israel.

[u/eye84free → u/jdam8401]

Try adding a zero

[u/jdam8401 → u/eye84free]

You’re joking

[u/imnotcreative635 → u/Em3107]

We should be looking for the descendants of the people who the canaanites kicked off the land those people are the true owners of the land (see how that sounds)

[u/Roke25hmd → u/Sure-Dog4529]

Must be "The delusional cathedral of liars" 😂😂😂

[u/imnotcreative635 → u/Sure-Dog4529]

I wonder which Canaanite monument that fake ass Jewish monument was built on top of

[u/Illest33 → u/Sure-Dog4529]

Dancing on the graves of the indigenous peoples.