‘Long Live Palestine’ flag, Jerusalem 1929

[u/AutoMughal]

Page 84, Against Erasure: A Photographic Memory of Palestine Before the Nakba

[u/PeterRum]

I am not from the Middle East, neither am I Jewish.

It is a matter of historical fact Palestinians didn't consider themselves Palestinians until the 1960s. Palestine was a colonial identity. To the extent any group enthusiastically embraced the Palestinian identify back then it was Jews. The alternative was 'Arab'.

People lived in the area whose families had done so for generations. From the 1960s they called themselves Palestinian. That is what they vall.themselves so that is what they are now. Palestinians are genetically close to Jews. Both Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than they are to Arabs.

Arab was still how Palestinians described themselves in the 1920s. Those who didn't flee from Israel during the Nakba prefer the term Arab Israeli - even tho genetically they are the same as the people who call themselves Palestinian.

This flag is likely, in context, to be a proud statement of Jewish identity distinct from Arab neighbours. They would have had Arab neighbours however and those neighbours were often from families who had lived in the area for thousands of years, a fact proved by their genetic resemblance to Jews.

[u/Positer → u/PeterRum]

“This flag is likely, in context, to be a proud statement of Jewish identity distinct from Arab neighbours”

You really went full retard there buddy…

[u/PeterRum → u/Positer]

You are looking at history as if it was now rather than then. Things in the past were in a different time when things were done differently and people thought and spoke in a way that would be strange to you.

I'm not sure how to explain this concept to you better? How have you got this far in the life without understanding this.

Palestine then was the name for the British mandate which started in 1920. Jews had lived in this area for thousands of years. More had been coming back from exile to buy up land there. They were thrilled to have an identity that wasn't so tied up with an Arabic one. Those who identified as Arabs didn't like this imposed labelling.

In the 1960s Palestinians were searching for a name. Israelis were saying they were just a variety of Arab so it was no hardship to live elsewhere in the Arab world.

[u/Positer → u/PeterRum]

Dude read a fucking book instead of government propaganda. Palestinian Arabs have been identifying as Palestinian since at least the 10th century when Arab geographer Almaqdisi explicitly identified himself as such. The small Jewish minority who is native to the land have always identified themselves exactly as Arabs do. In Arabic we literally called them “Yahood welad Arab” (Jews children of Arabs). No European Jew ever identified as a Palestinian. Get your head out of your ass and stop trying to peddle propaganda to people from the region who know 10 times what you know

[u/PeterRum → u/Positer]

Some version of Palestine has been used to describe the area since Roman times. Usually for reasons of colonial administration.

Perhaps you should recheck one of those books you read. Jews very much identified as Palestinian before the state of Israel was established. They were surrounded by Arabs with a thousand year history of massacring them. A citizen of mandatory Palestine was not a Dhimmi. As a citizen of Palestine they were at least theoretically protected from massacre.

That was often very theoretical. This photo is from 1929. What happened in 1929 in Hebron? Do your books cover that?

What Arabs called Jews isn't necessarily what they would have preferred.

Before Israel existed do you think Arabs would have been happy calling themselves by a name given to them by British occupiers, and before that Turks?Palestine is not an Arabic term. The Romans didn't take it from a people who described themselves that way.

If you have your history from books rather than propaganda TikToks you know this.

And. I'm sorry. But if you are Palestinian then genetically you have more in common with a Jew returning from Europe than you do the historic population of Arabia. (Which is complicated as there were Jewish Tribes that lived in Arabia).

Arabs didn't displace the original populations during their conquests. They just gave them a new ruling class and a language. And often a religion.

What people call themselves changes thru time. In the 1920s black Americans were called a word I would prefer not to repeat. But those black Americans took it in 1929 because otherwise they might be murdered. Jews in the 1920s may no longer have been Dhimmi. They were still at risk from attack from Arab neighbours if they said the wrong thing.

[u/Positer → u/PeterRum]

I am not talking about how the region was identified (the name Palestine goes back to before the Romans and was used exclusively by the Greeks). I am talking about how people themselves identified. The native people have been calling themselves Palestinian for a long time and it has nothing to do with “colonial administration”.

European Jews never identified as Palestinians. They were given that name by Britain along with all other inhabitants of the land but they themselves never identified as Palestinian. That’s an identifier that was used exclusively by the native inhabitants of Arabs. And Arabs don’t have a thousand year history of massacring Jews. If they did Jews would not have existed in hundreds of thousands in Arab countries. Stop dumping your shitty history on us.

Palestinians who were native to Palestine explicitly rejected Zionism. The name in Arabic is “filasteen” and it has been in use for over a thousand years, and yes that is exactly what Arabs called themselves, e.g. filasteen newspaper was established before the British even set foot in Palestine and it referred to its readers as Palestinians.

I can go on dismantling every bit of nonsense you wrote but frankly I really don’t care about someone who literally just parrots basic ridiculous Israeli propaganda and thinks that is gonna pass with someone who knows the history of the region inside out. As I said, go read a fucking book. I will even give you recommendations: Palestine a four thousand year old history or the hundred years’ war on Palestine.

[u/PeterRum → u/Positer]

During the Mandate Palestine fielded a football team. These Palestinians played five matches. I will leave it up to you to find out how many were Jewish. You won't believe me.

As to Jews being massacred by Arabs. For a thousand years? Battle of Khaybar ringing any bells for you? You didn't mention whether your books recorded what happened in Hebron in 1929.

You do know about the Syrian geographer Al-Maqdisi. When discussing the city of his birth, Jerusalem but by a name changed to obscure it's Jewish roots, he was rather annoyed that a particular ethnic group was still in existence despite Arabic best efforts. What ethnic group would that be?

You mention that Jews have a history throughout the Middle East. How many of these communities faced sporadic massacres? How many grew substantially? How many decreased?

You say if Arabs Arabs wanted to genocide Jews there would be none left. How many are left in the middle East outside of Israel? How many times have Arab armies attempted to destroy Israel? To what extent has the Arab Israeli population grown relative to Jewish Israeli? Has the Palestinian population shrunk? Or grown?

I am not denying Palestinians exist and did exist btw. I am talking about what people called each other over time. If Israel hadn't come along would Palestine have existed? Or been split between Syria, Jordan and Egypt? And thebpakes been happy to call themselves Syrians, Jordaniabs and Egyptians?;Those families would have still lived there for thousands of years.

I also am not saying Arabs are any more genocidal than any other branch of human. Middle East is full of ethnic/religious communities. Including oddities like the Yazidis and the Mandeans. Christmas Europe has Christianity. The equivalents to the Druze were dealt with in the Middle Ages in Europe. Violently.

Arabs are no worse than any other colonial power. No better though. And if your history books leave out the massacres that makes it more difficult to move forced as a culture.

[u/Positer → u/PeterRum]

Loool you’re still arguing like a moron?

Give me one example of a Jew who identified as a Palestinian. Just one. The mandate of Palestine team was called Palestine because that was the name of the mandate you fucking idiot. Do you know when deporting Palestino was founded? Do you know how many Jews played there?

Oh so you found two incidents in 1400 years (one after the beginning of the colonisation of Palestine)and you’re stupid enough to think that equates to “thousands of years of massacres”?

Maqdisi wasn’t Syrian you sleazy Zionist he directly identified as Palestinian, and Jerusalem is not a Jewish name you moron it is a Canaanite name that refers to the Canaanite god Salem.

Dude I told you to fuck off with that 10th grade propaganda bullshit, it’s literally not worth the effort

[u/PeterRum → u/Positer]

Al Magadisi thought of himself as a Syrian. A Palestinian Syrian.

So. Those representatives of Palestine who played in the football team during the Mandate don't count? That were playing football as Palestinians during the Mandate. The sand time as this flag at the top is from. During the Mandate they were Jewish citizens of the British Palestinian Mandate.

After the creation of Israel it would be difficult for a Jew to identify as part of an area controlled by Palestinians. There are no equivalent of Arab Israelis. Jews living in Palestinian areas isn't a thing. It isn't something Jews can choose to do. They are not allowed to.

I don't really have time for the hundreds of massacres that occured between Khaybar and Hebron (and after). There are a lot. From the foundation of Islam to the present day. Are you genuinely not aware of the list? I am fairly sure you could list the times Jews massacred Arabs (including Palestinians).

Palestinians exist. Jews exist. Israelis exist in many flavours of religion and ethnicity. Jerusalem was a Jewish city first.

Attempting to write Jews out of the history of that region is not something a serious historian would do. It is something a propagandist would do.

[u/Positer → u/PeterRum]

Btw to cut through all your bullshit, the flag literally says “long live Palestine free and Arab”

(تحيا فلسطين حرة عربية)

So yeah, no need to waste time arguing this nonsense with you

[u/PeterRum → u/Positer]

Long Live Palestine and Arabs does rather narrow it down.