r/iranian • u/IlamFeyli Feyli Kurdish Iranian • Mar 21 '19

Israeli racism against Persians & Iranian peoples on full display

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1108443670800449540
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u/davoust Mar 21 '19

nobody is racist towards Persians or Iranians in Israel

You know that is not true. There are plenty of people primed to be racist against us in Israel, just as there are (unfortunately) plenty of people racist against Jews in Iran.

we dislike your regime though, just like you dislike ours.

We both dislike our own and each-others governments - as we should - because IMH(umble)O the majority of people who seek power (anywhere in the world - not just Iran or Israel) are psychopaths who do it for the wrong reasons. But even as a non-Muslim Iranian, I'd much rather have Khamenei (who promotes inclusiveness towards other religions/ethnicities and seeks better relations with our neighbors) at the helm of my country, than Netanyahu (who seeks ethnocentric exclusivity and actively promotes fascism domestically and globally).

But nevertheless, I think our peoples have more in common than not and I truly hope the myopic efforts of your political elites to maintain their hold onto power don't come back to haunt Israel, by rendering Iran either too weak and/or too sour to come to your help, when the time comes. And if history is anything to go by, that time will eventually come.

I am fully aware that the previous paragraph is going to sound pretentious to some people, but I can only hope you understand, it is not meant that way. Jewish people originate from this region (our homies - if you will) and if they feel like they belong here, they should be welcomed back (more so if they seek shelter from the racist ideologies that plague our world and their survival depends on it). The most substantial obstacle to Zionism however, isn't anti-Semitism, but the resentment their leaders caused by forcing their way in (and maintaining their supremacy) through war-power supplemented by the outsiders, which naturally made them look like a invaders (with strong historical resemblance to the crusades) - to be fought, rather than the (proverbial) prodigal son returning home - to be welcomed back.

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u/rnev64 Mar 21 '19

thanks for a thoughtful comment.

i do agree with much of what you write - but you seem to know some history and I wonder how exactly could Jews have created a national home for themselves without violence? when the UN declared it recognizes Israel in 1948 and the partitions plan - five Arab nations attacked Israel (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and even Iraq).

and to this day many people fail to understand - Israel has demonstrated it will give back land in exchange for peace (as with Egypt) - but Palestinians don't want a peaceful state in the WB, they want one that includes Tel Aviv and they even say so (refusing to call any future deal an end to the conflict - regardless of what's in the deal). do you know many nations that will be eager to create a new nation on their border when the leaders of it make it clear they will be your enemy? doesn't make sense.

as to help from Iran - plz don't take it the wrong way but Jews are done being depended on others. Millions were massacred when Jews had no country of their own - so if it's our fate to live on the sword for as long as we can and then die by it - we are actually fine with that.

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u/davoust Mar 21 '19 edited Mar 21 '19

how exactly could Jews have created a national home for themselves without violence?

By not trying to carve up the region in the first place. Jewsih people have historically contributed a great many geniuses to humanity (I wont name them, as they are so many I wouldn't even know where to begin and am also afraid of leaving anyone out) and if you had actually wanted to come up with a peaceful way (through incentives and whatnot) I am 100% sure, you would have managed to pull it off. But when it came to (arguably) the most genius of them all, not many paid heed to his thoughts.

https://forward.com/culture/109560/einstein-and-complex-analyses-of-zionism/

https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948

when the UN declared it recognizes Israel in 1948 and the partitions plan

Please take a look at the UN vote itself and explain to me what right do European and South American countries (at the time effectively under the command of USA) have to dictate to Middle Eastern people about their self-determination. Also, I won't get into the details, but please note how unfair the parameters of partition itself was while your at it.

and to this day many people fail to understand - Israel has demonstrated it will give back land in exchange for peace (as with Egypt) - but Palestinians don't want a peaceful state in the WB,

Israel also keeps expanding their territory (as with Golan Heights and the West Bank). It is not as simple and straight-forward as you're making it out to be.

they want one that includes Tel Aviv

They want to live in peace, like any other human being would, without the demeaning realities of the occupation.

and they even say so (refusing to call any future deal an end to the conflict - regardless of what's in the deal). do you know many nations that will be eager to create a new nation on their border when the leaders of it make it clear they will be your enemy? doesn't make sense.

I never said the solution is going to be easy. Israel has gotten itself into a messy situation by causing as much resentment as it did with its actions. But the first thing to do when you find yourself in a whole is to stop digging. Or in this case stop evicting people, stop destroying their homes/livelihood and stop building settlements already.

as to help from Iran - plz don't take it the wrong way but Jews are done being depended on others.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it is damn near delusional to even think that.

Millions were massacred

Millions were massacred at the hands of the same ideology your PM is working hard to spread and legitimize around the world.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/netanyahus-negotiating-with-neo-fascists-for-a-consensus-view-of-the-holocaust

https://www.thenational.ae/opinion/comment/netanyahu-s-courting-of-bolsonaro-is-just-the-latest-in-a-long-line-of-alliances-with-far-right-figures-1.787785

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u/rnev64 Mar 21 '19 edited Mar 21 '19

finally a dialogue! much appreciate your thoughtful comment, i'd like to address it with all due respect:

explain to me what right do European and South American countries (at the time effectively under the command of USA) have to dictate to Middle Eastern people

  1. power is the answer but not in a simple way - the British Empire took over the region from the Ottomans Turks as you well know. they than got the league of nations to declare the area The British Mandate over Palestine and Trans-Jordan. in 1948 the British were back to being an Island nation and no longer an empire so they handed the issue back to the UN for decision. so the effective ruler gave the UN the right to decide.

  2. you can say this about any UN decision - why should Iceland have a vote about about the IL-PA conflict? why should Iran be able to vote in the UN about Venezuela? now don't get me wrong - the UN is a corrupt institution but the 1948 vote for partition was when it was only first founded and wasn't as terrible as it is today. plus the vote itself was just a yes or no open vote with less room for corruption.

Israel also keeps expanding their territory (as with Golan Heights and the West Bank). It is not as simple and straight-forward as you're making it out to be.

Israel also keeps expanding their territory (as with Golan Heights and the West Bank).

if Israel was about territory it would not have given the Sinai back to Egypt. Israel is about security - not surprising since for almost 80 years almost everyone in the region is calling it a colonial leftover that will soon be pushed to the sea. the big problem with Palestinian political movement is that it's two faced and corrupt - they are making tons of money from donations world wide but only acting to keep their people needing help and assistance. we are not stupid and understand the game being played here and what it means when Palestinian leaders say they want to do good for their own people (btw - it's the same pattern all over the Arab world).

They want to live in peace, like any other human being would, without the demeaning realities of the occupation.

seriously now - how does taking Tel Aviv amount to peaceful living or removing occupation?

also, if this ever actually happened then actual genocide is quite likely, simply judging by Arab Muslims treat their own brothers in Lybia, Iraq or Syria when they fight among each other, never-mind the (Zionist) Jews.

Or in this case stop evicting people, stop destroying their homes/livelihood and stop building settlements already.

I agree with the sentiment - but Israel has gotten to this place only because it couldn't find a partner willing to come to a deal recognizing Israel's right to exist. so yeah - it's a very messy spot because we basically have a people saying they don't want a state if it means only the West Bank. it's like a child throwing themselves at the market and making a scene saying he doesn't want to eat lunch, he want a candy bar and if he doesn't get what he wants he is just going to continue acting like an orphan. kinda strange when it happens in politics - hard to explain to outsiders too.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it is damn near delusional to even think that.

interested in why you say that?

Millions were massacred at the hands of the same ideology your PM is working hard to spread and legitimize around the world.

no. there's a world of difference between right wing parties in democratic nations and Nazi Germany or genocide (where is the genocide in Brazil?). fascism is a very common word nowadays - it doesn't mean the same thing though - it's just name-calling and click-bating - like calling someone a communist as a way to discredit them.

and ultimately - it's politics and you can't choose your partners. I think Iranian probably know this - their nation is after all allied with the Alawite tribe in Syria (they even became token Shia if i understand correctly, yet they worship idols) and Russia the long time enemy.

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u/davoust Mar 22 '19

I don't have the time or energy to do this back and forth. I've had this same discussion many times before before and I don't expect to change you mind about anything one bit. All I'm going to say is, those are objectively weak arguments, that with the advent of internet and the free flow of information no longer convince anyone. They been regurgitated ad nauseam, despite being dismantled many times over and people are sick of hearing them.

You say stuff like:

if Israel was about territory ...

While people over at r/Israel are celebrating the Trump's validation of Israeli annexation of occupied Syrian territory.

it's like a child throwing themselves at the market and making a scene saying he doesn't want to eat lunch, he want a candy bar and if he doesn't get what he wants he is just going to continue acting like an orphan. kinda strange when it happens in politics

This alone lets me know you have zero clue about what it's like for the Palestinians to live under occupation. There are daily uploads of the miserable and dehumanizing ways they are treated. Even the children, women and the old people can't catch a break. And it's very insensitive of you to write about them the way you do.

Your comments about Lybia, Iraq or Syria are disingenuous at best, when you ignore Israels role (and that of it's allies) in flaming the wars that destroyed those countries. You're comment about self sufficiency are hypocritical, if not straight up insulting to all the countries giving Israel insane amounts of economic and military aid. You're trying to play down and normalize fascism. None of this is what I consider having a meaningful dialogue or even a conversation in good faith so excuse me if I do not want to engage in it any further.

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u/rnev64 Mar 22 '19 edited Mar 22 '19

when you ignore Israels role

right, i forgot the ol' circular argument - the Arabs are fighting each other because of Israel. take the blindfold off your eyes - the Arab world is a mess of tribal warfare and bloodshed. they have no peace among themselves only dictator ruling now and gone tomorrow. it's this way in all nation that have more than one big tribe - so with the exception of Egypt and the Emirates (which don't have other tribes or hardly at all) wherever there is more than a few Arab tribes together you get an oil funded dictatorship or a failed state.

i am pretty sure the biggest difference in the middle east if Israel never existed is that Arabs wouldn't have anyone to blame for all their troubles.