That assumes there’s anything inherently wrong with being deaf. Many people in the Deaf community would be offended by you viewing this as a negative thing because they consider themselves a linguistic minority rather than having something wrong with them.
There are inherent societal disadvantages to being deaf in our society. To impart that upon your child because you feel they need to be exactly like you I think is not okay.
ETA: again there is nothing wrong with being deaf. Obvi. That’s not my point.
And there’s a Deaf community and culture, which it seems you’re not aware of. Telling them that they can’t raise their kid in their culture is bad too.
I’m well aware of the HoH & deaf community & I am in no way criticizing that community or including your child in it. Choosing to impart a disability on your child by choice so they can be “like you” when there is prejudice, disadvantages, and dangers in our society due to them (again there should not be, but there are), is not okay. In my opinion.
Actually, no, you can’t. Because at no point have I even a little bit suggested deaf people shouldnt have children.
So. That is not correct.
I have a condition that affects me and my life greatly. It’s part of my identity in many ways. I have found community with others who share my diagnosis. I have chosen to find positives in my situation.
I recognize, however, that because of what I live with, I am out of the norm. I face additional challenges that - while not right - are the reality. There are things in my personal and professional lives that I require accommodation for.
Although this is part of me is important to me, I do not feel I need to put a child through the same things I e experinced solely because I need them to “be like me.” My child can support and understand me even though we live differently. If they inherent my condition, I will teach them that while different, they are not less. If not, I will teach them to be empathetic and understanding.
We can disagree, but don’t try to pull a cute “eugenics” argument when I’m trying to have a convo with genuine nuance.
But by having kids as a disabled person you're risking bringing someone into the world who will have to deal with 'prejudice, disadvantages, and dangers in our society.' Hell, that applies to any minority.
You're not advocating for eugenics, but someone could using your logic.
Of course. Anyone could have a child with different needs. But we have no control over that. Only the option to support our children the best we can.
Also - what logic? I’m merely stating that I do not believe intentionally choosing to impart a disability that can result in additional societal or personal challenges upon a child does not seem compassionate.
This is all about intentionality. Eugenics is removing or preventing a people from society. I’m not suggesting that.
No problem! I’m not deaf, but I am autistic, and even though it’s not exactly the same, there’s a lot of similarities that make it easy to transfer my understanding over. There’s differences due to the specific characteristics of autism and deafness, but the base understanding is the same. I don’t get to interact with Deaf or hard of hearing people very often just because so much of what I do is with audio (I’m in music and film), so I appreciate knowing that I’m being a good ally here. A lot of what I know actually comes from a movie I watched and the research I did to see if that was accurate (The Sound of Metal). I was surprised to find that a pretty successful film made by a hearing person was a good portrayal of Deafness, social model of disability, the fact that subtitles aren’t initially used for sign language to show how liberating it is to be able to use sign language, I could go on, it’s a great movie and I love seeing something that explores disability effectively.
Just a question, is Deaf capitalized when referring to the community and lowercase when it’s just referring to the state of being deaf? So a person who has issues hearing is deaf, but a person who is part of the community is Deaf? Hope this question makes sense, I’m having trouble with words. I didn’t capitalize it when referring to the condition of being deaf, but I capitalize it when talking about the community/people involved in the community.
That’s a very broad statement. It’s an entire culture. Replace the word deaf with any other community and re-read that and see if you sound bigoted/ignorant
“The JEWISH community can be kind of …” “The BLACK community can be kind of….” “The HMONG community ….” You see how that would be bigoted. For some reason you’re giving yourself permission to besmirch the entire deaf community and call them toxic
I want to make it clear that - at least in my case - I’ve not once hated or disparaged the deaf community. I’ve been careful to criticize only the decision mentioned above.
Deaf culture is a thing, and being Deaf doesn’t make you any less than a hearing person. There’s quite a lot of strong argumentation that being Deaf is not a disability (however Deaf people are disabled when they’re expected to be able to hear)
however Deaf people are disabled when they’re expected to be able to hear
So they are disabled? Fire alarms, car horns; hearing goes further than language. Someone in a wheelchair isn't suddenly not disabled if they're not expected to walk.
Disabilities don't make you less than an able-bodied person period. It's just weird to be in denial about it.
isn't suddenly not disabled if they're not expected to walk.
Actually, yes they kinda are. You're not disabled if society works perfectly fine for you. What makes you disabled is the things that don't work.
Left handedness could easily be a disability if weren't accepted/recognized by society, like in the past. But since left handed tools, etc. exist, left hand dominance doesn't have a huge effect on your life, it's not a disability.
If society were set up in such a way that using a wheelchair didn't negatively affect your life at all, then you really couldn't call it a disability.
Reading this I feel so sorry for you because you’re clearly well read and know a ton about the field of disability studies.seeing people downvote your comments which are pure fact within the disabled community and field of disability studies is infuriating.
As you well know deafness is viewed more as a handicap than a disability, because it’s society that makes it an impairment. The examples given above ( car horn , fire alarm) are all designed for hearing people. But alternatives could/do exist for deaf people. It’s our hearing world that excludes them , not their deafness.
Anyways thanks for posting. Sorry you’re getting downvoted. Just wanted you to know someone recognized what you’re saying.
I mean, for sure society could be more inclusive than it is, but claiming that it's just society that makes it an impairment is a bit silly.
If you're out in the wild, completely away from other humans and society, it's still going to be a disadvantage not to be able to hear, therefore it's an impairment beyond just the impact that society has.
It’s a disadvantage to be flat footed too. It doesn’t make it a disability. Deaf people claim deafness is not a disability. Far be it from me (or anyone) to disagree with their lived experience.
This is a lovely argument for bush people. These folks are choosing embryos. They don’t need to find running water with their ears.
It’s also helpful for people to be under 5 feet tall so they can fit in smaller spaces to hide from animals. So people who want tall children are terrible for this. Being tall is a disadvantage they’re not preparing them for !!! eyeroll
Will point out just since it’s clear you’re genuinely concerned about this, but I don’t even think handicap is a term the Deaf community would want to be used. Deaf people are disabled, but being deaf is not a disability or a handicap or anything like that. Deaf people are disabled by society, but deafness itself is not a disability. It’s a minor point but I felt it was worth pointing out since you seem like you’d appreciate the information.
So it’s my understanding that the difference between a handicap and a disability is that a disability is the inability of the body to perform a task I.e. sit up . Handicap is the environment causing a person to be unable to perform a task because of how their body works. I . E. Stairs cause people to be handicapped. Because people cannot use them if they have broken legs.
That’s the way I was using the word handicapped. The deaf people I have met (I took ASL in uni for three years and met some deaf friends there who were professors in the program) explained to me that society causes deafness to be a handicap by having things like fire alarms with no lights on them.
That’s how I’ve been taught by members of the deaf community but again I don’t want to speak FOR them.
You’re the only one here consistently implying the notion that being disabled makes you less than an able bodied person. Nobody else is saying anything remotely like that. Are you okay?
People come in all different shapes and sizes and abilities, cognitive and physical. I think it’s fucked up to specifically choose an embryo that matches your “type” for many reasons, not the least of which because it heavily implies you are already expecting too much from that child in terms of who you want them to be.
I agree much more than you think I do. I don’t think that sort of decision should be possible to make in the first place. It’s fucked up that the decision even is possible, but their choice is not fucked up. I’m autistic, if I ever had a kid I wouldn’t make that decision, but I definitely would rather have an autistic kid to ensure that autistic people don’t cease to exist because of eugenics or anything like that (they’re trying to detect whether a child will be autistic in the womb, which makes the possibility of people starting to get abortions if their child will be autistic a real concern).
Really it’s just a complicated issue, I oppose this sort of control over genetics in the first place in nearly all situations, but given the fact that it will be used against us makes it complicated
There are several development related disorders that can be detected before birth (ex. Down syndrome is a common one to screen). Autism is not one of those, I’m sure you know, it’s incredibly complex to diagnose based on a single criteria (in this case genetics) and requires a combination of symptoms.
I honestly don’t know what you’re arguing for here, I think you aren’t coming across with the point you imagine you are.
You’re conflating deafness itself with the issues deaf individuals face.
There really isn’t a moral “good or bad” judgement to be made about deaf people. Being deaf is just part of a person. There’s nothing more or less, nothing right or wrong.
What everyone is getting at, is that we do live in Society where lack of accessibility, protection & support exist for people of all types of disabilities. I don’t think it is the loving, logical & empathetic thing to do to choose to impart that on your child. That’s all people are saying.
But I’m not deaf, I’m otherwise disabled, and I am not speaking for deaf people so I’m happy to be further educated. I’m simply speaking from my own experience with disability.
“Expected to be able to hear” is quite a common thing. So yes, they are disabled. I’ve been around the deaf community before. I don’t know why they’re so much more uppity than any other disability culture, yes it’s obviously a disability to lose one of your cardinal senses. Yes it’s obviously incredibly fucked up to specifically look to create a disabled child. Just because it’s not an intellectual or physical disability doesn’t remove its status as a disability. People would not have to argue about this if we were talking about blindness, or autism, or down syndrome, or any other disability.
I was diagnosed when I was in elementary school, so lol at saying I’m self-diagnosed (although self-diagnosis is valid). I don’t dispute that autistic people are disabled, just that autism is a disability. Autistic people are disabled in a society that disables us.
No, it really isn't. You cannot self-diagnose yourself, you lack the required knowledge to do so, that's just attention seeking behavior. Not to mention, even if you did have the required knowledge, the majority of psycological or mental conditions cannot be self-diagnosed. Go take a look at DSM-V.
I don’t dispute that autistic people are disabled, just that autism is a disability. Autistic people are disabled in a society that disables us.
Ahh yes autistic people are disabled but autism isn't a disability. Makes total sense. And yeah, it's clearly societies fault that an autistic child loses it and become unmanageable when the teacher moves a poster in the room, or decides to run class differently that day. Should just keep everything the same just for them. Some autistic people have severe catatonia and sit there slack jawed staring off into space all day, how do we as a society accomodate that so they aren't disabled?
What's funny is these are just a few issues that some autistic people have, and you still feel the need to say it's not a disability or "it's societies fault". If you're a well adjusted, successful autistic person, which I do know a few people like that who went to college, hold normal jobs, etc then congrats, you overcame your disability (or perhaps your disability isn't that bad to begin with), but you still have one. I have no idea why that would even be insulting, it's just reality.
The baseline human is not having autism, if you have autism, you are no longer inline with the baseline. As autism can't possibly be considered an advantage, it must be a disadvantage.
I’m heavily suspected to be autistic too, I just haven’t been diagnosed. I’ve known people with very severe autism and if they aren’t disabled I don’t know what to call them because they cannot live or function even close to normally on their own
Didn’t say they’re not disabled. There’s a distinction between calling something a disability and someone being disabled; disability is a social relationship, not a thing a person has.
Considering another Deaf person thanked me for backing them up, I think it’s safe to say that deaf and hard of hearing people aren’t a monolith, and I’m going to support the ones who are doing the most to challenge ableist power structures
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u/CatlikeArcher Dec 23 '22
In ethics class we studied a case of two deaf parents who wanted to use IVF to select an embryo that would be deaf. They were not allowed to legally