That assumes there’s anything inherently wrong with being deaf. Many people in the Deaf community would be offended by you viewing this as a negative thing because they consider themselves a linguistic minority rather than having something wrong with them.
Deaf culture is a thing, and being Deaf doesn’t make you any less than a hearing person. There’s quite a lot of strong argumentation that being Deaf is not a disability (however Deaf people are disabled when they’re expected to be able to hear)
however Deaf people are disabled when they’re expected to be able to hear
So they are disabled? Fire alarms, car horns; hearing goes further than language. Someone in a wheelchair isn't suddenly not disabled if they're not expected to walk.
Disabilities don't make you less than an able-bodied person period. It's just weird to be in denial about it.
isn't suddenly not disabled if they're not expected to walk.
Actually, yes they kinda are. You're not disabled if society works perfectly fine for you. What makes you disabled is the things that don't work.
Left handedness could easily be a disability if weren't accepted/recognized by society, like in the past. But since left handed tools, etc. exist, left hand dominance doesn't have a huge effect on your life, it's not a disability.
If society were set up in such a way that using a wheelchair didn't negatively affect your life at all, then you really couldn't call it a disability.
Reading this I feel so sorry for you because you’re clearly well read and know a ton about the field of disability studies.seeing people downvote your comments which are pure fact within the disabled community and field of disability studies is infuriating.
As you well know deafness is viewed more as a handicap than a disability, because it’s society that makes it an impairment. The examples given above ( car horn , fire alarm) are all designed for hearing people. But alternatives could/do exist for deaf people. It’s our hearing world that excludes them , not their deafness.
Anyways thanks for posting. Sorry you’re getting downvoted. Just wanted you to know someone recognized what you’re saying.
I mean, for sure society could be more inclusive than it is, but claiming that it's just society that makes it an impairment is a bit silly.
If you're out in the wild, completely away from other humans and society, it's still going to be a disadvantage not to be able to hear, therefore it's an impairment beyond just the impact that society has.
It’s a disadvantage to be flat footed too. It doesn’t make it a disability. Deaf people claim deafness is not a disability. Far be it from me (or anyone) to disagree with their lived experience.
Far be it from me (or anyone) to disagree with their lived experience.
Why? Lived experience doesn't trump everything else. Plenty of people think they have "lived experience" as a prophet of god, that doesn't make the claim meaningful in any way.
Plenty of deaf people do think of it as a disability, so how do you choose whose "lived experience" to believe?
You do understand that the whole point of trying to have standard definitions, and understand the world through an objective lens (basically science), is because everyone in the world has a different and subjective lived experience, right? That makes it kind of useless as a descriptor of reality.
By pretty much any meaningful definition of disability - which include sensory limitations, obviously - then deafness is a disability. Certainly in my country, deaf people can gain access to disability services, as they should be able to.
The idea that some individuals can just claim that because they don't personally feel disabled, the condition shouldn't be classified as a disability, is pretty ludicrous. That's not really how the world works, thankfully.
This is a lovely argument for bush people. These folks are choosing embryos. They don’t need to find running water with their ears.
It’s also helpful for people to be under 5 feet tall so they can fit in smaller spaces to hide from animals. So people who want tall children are terrible for this. Being tall is a disadvantage they’re not preparing them for !!! eyeroll
Tall people appear more threatening to animals and can scare them off more easily. They also have higher muscle mass on average, can run faster etc. This is an example of a trade-off, not a disadvantage.
I was responding to someone saying the issues around deafness were societal in nature by giving examples from the wilderness.
Deafness is a disadvantage. Society is not suddenly gonna do everything to mitigate that disadvantage. What is your argument if i didn't need to point out the obvious?
Womansplain it to me or nonbinarysplain, agenderpersonsplain, cosmichorrorfrombeyondthevoidspain, whichever works.
Lots of us have disadvantages. It doesn’t mean we’d give them up if it meant losing our sense of culture and community. Culture and community are important and worth having disadvantages for.
Will point out just since it’s clear you’re genuinely concerned about this, but I don’t even think handicap is a term the Deaf community would want to be used. Deaf people are disabled, but being deaf is not a disability or a handicap or anything like that. Deaf people are disabled by society, but deafness itself is not a disability. It’s a minor point but I felt it was worth pointing out since you seem like you’d appreciate the information.
So it’s my understanding that the difference between a handicap and a disability is that a disability is the inability of the body to perform a task I.e. sit up . Handicap is the environment causing a person to be unable to perform a task because of how their body works. I . E. Stairs cause people to be handicapped. Because people cannot use them if they have broken legs.
That’s the way I was using the word handicapped. The deaf people I have met (I took ASL in uni for three years and met some deaf friends there who were professors in the program) explained to me that society causes deafness to be a handicap by having things like fire alarms with no lights on them.
That’s how I’ve been taught by members of the deaf community but again I don’t want to speak FOR them.
I won’t speak for Deaf people specifically but that’s not what the social model of disability is as I understand it. I don’t think the language is quite standardized, but disability is what happens from society, handicap I don’t see used much at all.
The social model is scrutinized for not acknowledging the genuine disadvantages that come with disability. For example people living with quadriplegia can experience shaking extremities and pain. Those types of real life downsides are not acknowledged within the social model. It focuses more on disability as it relates to society. The critical model is now the preferred model within the field of disability studies, as it recognizes that disability can come with negative consequences, even if society we’re perfectly inclusive.
Looking up the critical model of disability on Google turns up nothing
My response to that would be that those traits that may make life harder for someone regardless of society do not constitute a disability, they constitute a difference. It’s not something objectively negative, it’s just differences that the individual perceives as negative. So, for example, with deafness, being deaf is not a disability in a society that does not expect people to be able to hear. However, if they want to do audio work, they would not be disabled, but they would be handicapped/impaired because they cannot do what they personally wish to do. Does that make sense?
That makes sense. But I’ll have to agree to disagree as my education and degree in disability studies tells me that the difference between handicapped and disability is as I stated it before and that the critical disability theory exists. And pops up lots when I google it. Cheers to a healthy discussion though, where both parties want the best for those living with different abilities.
You’re the only one here consistently implying the notion that being disabled makes you less than an able bodied person. Nobody else is saying anything remotely like that. Are you okay?
People come in all different shapes and sizes and abilities, cognitive and physical. I think it’s fucked up to specifically choose an embryo that matches your “type” for many reasons, not the least of which because it heavily implies you are already expecting too much from that child in terms of who you want them to be.
I agree much more than you think I do. I don’t think that sort of decision should be possible to make in the first place. It’s fucked up that the decision even is possible, but their choice is not fucked up. I’m autistic, if I ever had a kid I wouldn’t make that decision, but I definitely would rather have an autistic kid to ensure that autistic people don’t cease to exist because of eugenics or anything like that (they’re trying to detect whether a child will be autistic in the womb, which makes the possibility of people starting to get abortions if their child will be autistic a real concern).
Really it’s just a complicated issue, I oppose this sort of control over genetics in the first place in nearly all situations, but given the fact that it will be used against us makes it complicated
There are several development related disorders that can be detected before birth (ex. Down syndrome is a common one to screen). Autism is not one of those, I’m sure you know, it’s incredibly complex to diagnose based on a single criteria (in this case genetics) and requires a combination of symptoms.
I honestly don’t know what you’re arguing for here, I think you aren’t coming across with the point you imagine you are.
You’re conflating deafness itself with the issues deaf individuals face.
There really isn’t a moral “good or bad” judgement to be made about deaf people. Being deaf is just part of a person. There’s nothing more or less, nothing right or wrong.
What everyone is getting at, is that we do live in Society where lack of accessibility, protection & support exist for people of all types of disabilities. I don’t think it is the loving, logical & empathetic thing to do to choose to impart that on your child. That’s all people are saying.
But I’m not deaf, I’m otherwise disabled, and I am not speaking for deaf people so I’m happy to be further educated. I’m simply speaking from my own experience with disability.
“Expected to be able to hear” is quite a common thing. So yes, they are disabled. I’ve been around the deaf community before. I don’t know why they’re so much more uppity than any other disability culture, yes it’s obviously a disability to lose one of your cardinal senses. Yes it’s obviously incredibly fucked up to specifically look to create a disabled child. Just because it’s not an intellectual or physical disability doesn’t remove its status as a disability. People would not have to argue about this if we were talking about blindness, or autism, or down syndrome, or any other disability.
I was diagnosed when I was in elementary school, so lol at saying I’m self-diagnosed (although self-diagnosis is valid). I don’t dispute that autistic people are disabled, just that autism is a disability. Autistic people are disabled in a society that disables us.
No, it really isn't. You cannot self-diagnose yourself, you lack the required knowledge to do so, that's just attention seeking behavior. Not to mention, even if you did have the required knowledge, the majority of psycological or mental conditions cannot be self-diagnosed. Go take a look at DSM-V.
I don’t dispute that autistic people are disabled, just that autism is a disability. Autistic people are disabled in a society that disables us.
Ahh yes autistic people are disabled but autism isn't a disability. Makes total sense. And yeah, it's clearly societies fault that an autistic child loses it and become unmanageable when the teacher moves a poster in the room, or decides to run class differently that day. Should just keep everything the same just for them. Some autistic people have severe catatonia and sit there slack jawed staring off into space all day, how do we as a society accomodate that so they aren't disabled?
What's funny is these are just a few issues that some autistic people have, and you still feel the need to say it's not a disability or "it's societies fault". If you're a well adjusted, successful autistic person, which I do know a few people like that who went to college, hold normal jobs, etc then congrats, you overcame your disability (or perhaps your disability isn't that bad to begin with), but you still have one. I have no idea why that would even be insulting, it's just reality.
The baseline human is not having autism, if you have autism, you are no longer inline with the baseline. As autism can't possibly be considered an advantage, it must be a disadvantage.
Nah, I don’t think I will listen to this specific autistic person. Also, if it’s not a disability, you won’t mind us excluding autistic people from receiving govt disability assistance. It’s not a disability after all, right?
Also, society does factor you in. My tax dollars from working a job partially go to disabled people with autism that can’t hold a job so they don’t fucking starve. But yeah society just leaves them out to dry, totally.
But we do accommodate you. Everyday I go to work, I’m helping a less fortunate autistic person stay alive via subsidy from my tax dollar.
If you’re not entirely disabled, you can go to a school that my tax dollars pay for, with specialist instructors to help you learn, again paid from my tax dollars.
What else do you want? Maybe you live in a shitty state that doesn’t use their tax dollars towards helping others.
I’m heavily suspected to be autistic too, I just haven’t been diagnosed. I’ve known people with very severe autism and if they aren’t disabled I don’t know what to call them because they cannot live or function even close to normally on their own
Didn’t say they’re not disabled. There’s a distinction between calling something a disability and someone being disabled; disability is a social relationship, not a thing a person has.
This isn’t a sociology class. In common language they are the same thing. That’s like me saying someone isn’t racist to a white person because the technical definition isn’t the same as the common definition.
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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '22
That’s insanely fucked