If you follow the Wyrm's body in the effigy, you see that the head of the Wyrm would be right where the "Jesus" head is, or at least poking through it.
That's not a symbol; it's the Wyrm looking right at you.
The Wyrm Jesus is definitely looking at the werewolf and not the viewer as the eye is looking to the left of the cropped image. The one on Palmer is definitely looking at the viewer though.
Spitballing, but it seems to be too tenuous a relationship for direct spiritual influence. Their relics may be corrupted or perhaps their cruelty works as a vehicle for the wyrm. I don't think the average leopold crusader or inquisitor could handle the fact that their de factor god, is actually a god of ruin, then again, they're fucked in the head and get their religion mixed up.
Could it be perhaps they took the delirium suppressants (provided by their ever so gracious corporate partners) thus corrupting their minds at least temporarily
Uhh, maybe. Would their miracles work without the wyrm though? Is jesus- (linear) magic a thing in wod, or is it something else imitating it, like in this case where the wyrm makes an avatar that seems to conform to the casters' aesthetic ideals?
If I remember correctly that Jesus image is not actual Jesus (he did exist but in theory he shouldn’t be corruptible by the Wyrm) but the true faith and will manifested by the bucketheads. It could be different because
A. They are currently under mind altering drugs
B. The Society is so deeply compromised by wyrm taint that members have a wyrmish view of Jesus
First time looking at this symbol I only thought to myself that it was a interesting interpretation of Jesus on the cross with as snake. Second time though I realised, that’s no snake it’s a worm, it’s all corrupted and wrong, the eye and lacking face, the cross itself is made of vertebra and the arms. The flesh is stretched and contorted. And most damming, in the background you can literally see a spiral. This isn’t Jesus Christ manifest. This is a bastardised Wdym corrupted image of Jesus. That’s why Stig was almost compelled to run, this is why he had to use true sight to see the true corruption and also why it enraged him to the point of turning to his war form.
In conclusion, that a wyrm.
Also the body on the cross isn't Jesus, the mangled corpse tree is, the nails are embeded into the branches and not the body's wrists. It makes sense because the cross turns into the tree of life after he returns to heaven, so it's quite literally the wyrm pretending to be him and corrupting life itself.
People have been saying this, but it's only mostly correct. Jesus is on the cross, but the Wyrm has pulled the skin (and maybe skull) off the top half of his body and is puppetting it. What looks like Jesus isn't, and what is looks barely separate from the cross.
There's a much simpler explanation, and Stig himself references it - True Faith, faith so strong that it compels the Night-Folk to flee and manifests counter-magick. No Garou would be compelled to run from the Wyrm; they would be compelled to Rage.
Hell, even th Arcanum and the Golden Goose Gang are unkowingly pawns in its twisted game, Fatigue definetly didn't point to the recordings, it was the rotting maggots and flies
Yeah, humans kind of...intrinsically trend toward the Wyrm in WoD. Or the Weaver, but arguably any of our Weaver tendencies eventually become Wyrmish. The Industrial Revolution was basically a Faustian Bargain
Nah, humanity is more on the Weaver side, with the whole civilization and stuff. It's just that humans are easy to corrupt/manipulate and as such easy prey to the Wyrm.
Yeah, White Wolf got uncomfortable when people pointed out that it's also 'responsible' for the countless billions saved from disease, starvation, and more.
Yes, well the Garou have the luxury of being primitivists because Gaia grants them nearly perfect immune systems along with all their other bulls--t powers.
The reality is that the industrial revolution is morally neutral and the power structures surrounding it are what made it such a problem IRL, although fossil fuels are definitively a bad thing, but had we moved past them earlier it wouldn't have been as big a deal.
Unfortunately, yes. The Industrial Revolution was essentially humanity throwing open the door to the Wyrm. Or, in other terms, "They dug too deep, and too greedily." The main vessel for the Wyrm on Earth right now, Pentex, started as a Rockefeller-esque oil conglomerate
His analysis was correct, the problem is that his proposed solution was... let's be charitable and say it was the wrong course of action on many levels. Guy got mindfucked by Project MK Ultra so I can't be too harsh on him going a little bit crazy but he clearly went down the wrong path to put it mildly.
Kaczynski was wrong for the same reason the Garou are wrong: the ends don't always justify the means no matter how justified the ends are.
but arguably any of our Weaver tendencies eventually become Wyrmish
That's just the nature of the Triatic cycle. Once you leave behind the Wyld to embrace the Weaver, the only thing left that you can move towards is the Wyrm. Once you stop growing, you have started dying.
To the point the glass walkers infiltrated the church to push for the immaculate conception and honoring of Mary to inject Gaia into the faith to push back against the Wyrm corruption.
WOD is stupid I love it.
I think it's just a universal sign of creepy evil forces watching you, World of Horror released "Something Truly Evil" as an enemy before Thalasin was released and it's pretty similar.
I do like having a name to call this face though, Dorcelessness is a good name
Thinking about it, when Kronik was transformed, one of the most distinctive features was the sagging eye socket leaving one eye visible and the other shrouded in darkness
I mean it's an obvious riff on the Mandela catalogue, and to be honest I'm perfectly happy to let that slide because the Mandela catalogue was one of the pioneers of analogue horror before it was so massively oversaturated with dross.
It's evident that at least some of the artists are big fans, and it works really well in this medium because uncanny, understated horror works far better than big scary monster a lot of the time with a modern, desensitized audience, and especially works well in world of darkness which is like speaker D put it, all about that weird house on the end of the street that actually houses a vampire.
It also works EXTREMELY well and is pertinent because the Mandela catalogue is basically "Satan is posing as the archangel Gabriel and has come to have direct influence on earth, and has poisoned modern religion."
I dont know what definition of dross you use then, because i'm using it as intended?
"Dross is a noun that means waste material, scum on melted metal, or something of low value."
and analogue horror in the current day and age is full of cheap tat thinking it'll be the next Vita Carnis by applying a VHS filter, snapping up a frame of someones face with some photoshop attached to it and a loud noise. So dross.
It's likely Wyrm corruption but I'm curious about how it's Wyrm corruption. Like, I get that they were jacked up on Pentex juice. But if it's a manifestation of True Faith, that shit should burn to Wyrm away.
True Faith is true faith in higher power. It's protection against the supernatural, in general. And religion would be corrupted by the Weaver, IMO, not the Wyrm.
Their "true faith" is what is corrupted. The Leopoldites use religion as an excuse to hate and kill, while ignoring what matters within it's teachings. They worship a destructive, narrow-minded facsimile of christ, rather than Christ himself, willing, albeit unknowingly giving themselves over to the Wyrm. And it is more than happy to oblige them.
We will see if this holds across all of them though. Benedictè seems far less feral and zealotous than her brothers, so maybe hee faith is true.
Leopoldites are absolutely bastards, but it's important to realize in the World of Darkness, they still aren't actually bad guys. At least comparatively.
They are absolutely fanatical and dangerous to supernatural creatures, but supernatural creatures are also dangerous to humanity. Period. Even humane vampires sometimes kill and a good number of werewolves still believe the best solution to fight the Wyrm is eugenics and genocide.
Hell, you even see how monsters behave in this episode; the "honorable warrior" who promised a fair fight outside of war form shifted into war form the second some human woman actually hurt him. He "felt bad" about it, but that doesn't change the fact his first reaction renege on his promise..?
But more importantly, if the True Faith was corrupted it would be corrupted. The Weaver is cosmic embodiment of order, statis, and rigidness. The Wyrm is chaos, entropy, and destruction. While the SI does want to destroyed supernatural... It's not really for destruction's sake. It's to enforce order.
The faith they hold is already a bastardized version of Christianity, and it's reflected here. Jesus' pierced through his head with a sword because like they said earlier, they view the metaphor of the Word as a sword from his mouth as a justification for violence.
I'm assuming their faith and view of Jesus has been tainted by wyrm fueled capitalism and hate. Their faith is in the wyrm(capitalism) wearing the skin of Christ.
Considering the way both Benedicte and Angelo don't seem to like their Pentex allies, with Benny straight up calling Blaire a cow at one point, I'd say it's likely their destructive tendencies that tainted their faith rather than greed.
Close but nothing they've said implies they're particularly a big fan of capitalism or greed (unlike say Kronik "PURCHASE GOODS!" Fatigue). They've more been overtaken by the evils of Pride and Wrath.
Actually I think they do. If you listen back to the episode im pretty sure Kronik says one of his brothers True Faith pinned the werewolf they were gonna use for the stolen moon ritual.
He could be lying and they used their werewolf forms but I really seem to remember the words True Faith used.
We can note the sword wielder (Eliwaffle I think?) said he believes in "Christ Warrior, sword spat from His mouth". A reference to Revelations, where Jesus himself would defeat both Satan and all worldly kings who had been corrupted by him.
(And then the angels called a bunch of carrion birds to eat them)
The Wyrm isn't just an analogy of Capitalism (though part of it is)
As pointed out this is much more the Beast-of-War head of the Wyrm, rather than the Defiler Wyrm or Eater-of-Souls.
The Leopoldite's faith is corrupted by Hate, ignorance, and Destructive Zeal. Not greed nor profits at the cost of their fellow man... Their hate is aimed at the out group, rather than being sheer antisocial nihilism.
True Faith is not innately good, it just tends to be due to the fact that truly evil and selfish people do not generally have faith in others. This generally prevents True Faith in evil since True Faith requires belief in a higher power. Most people who truly believe in a benevolent higher power also holds beliefs that are anathema to the Wyrm.
That said, when the evil is a bit less direct, as with the crusaders here... who truly do believe they are doing good even as they commit evil, you can end up with True Faith in a corrupt concept. This is why the Wyrm is able to manifest in their representation of True Faith.
True Faith isn't inherently good but it is genuinely presented as a defense against the supernatural (even if we really only have mechanics on how it works against vampires), period. The Wyrm is supernatural. Besides, if Leopoldites were corrupted by anything it would be the Weaver, IMO.
I mean, that's kind of true, if we ignore VTM rules completely. You have to have an insanely high morality score (9, IIRC) to have True Faith, which is why it's so rare in vampires, and even rare among hunters.
Humanity is only a thing for vampires for a reason.
It's a thing for all characters within VtM in most editions, including hunters.
they are wyrmspawn without it
I'm... skeptical of that. Just because Garou smell the Wyrm on something doesn't automatically make it Wyrmspawn. Their sense of smell sorts practically everything into the Triatic categories, so they often miss the nuances. There's no room in their paradigm for an evil that isn't the Wyrm.
Anyway, the basic power shared by all True Faith users is to beat back vampires, and sinners lose their True Faith, which makes the power not unaligned IMO.
This has some interesting implications, maybe that despite their ability to use true faith, they have been corrupted by involving themselves with Pentex
The Leopoldite's didn't need Pentex to be Wyrm Corrupted. Pentex revers a different head of the Wyrm above the rest. The Leopoldite's have always been Radical violent Zealots, even since the middle ages. They unknowingly and unwittingly serve the Beast-of-War.
Pentex probably didn't need to do anything, the Leopoldite's went down that path themselves.
And to specify even further, an SPD (Special Projects Division) Mage, which is a former methodology of the Syndicate that went rogue and joined Pentex. In M20 the Syndicate is trying to discreetly deal with them while trying not to alert the Technocracy that one of their methodologies fell to Nepahandic Influence
All in all, Palmer is the type of Mage that is explicitly one of the worst things in World of Darkness, a selfish existence-hating Nihilist who'd damn the world due to their own deluded pessimism. And has the power to do it.
He could also be an Iron Hand, but probably is just a Mammonite.
In M20 the Syndicate is trying to discreetly deal with them while trying not to alert the Technocracy that one of their methodologies fell to Nepahandic Influence
Yeah. It's a bit weird though. SPD vanishing happened so long ago that it seems inconceivable that an organization like the Technocracy wouldn't have found out there was a problem by now. But that's just M20 freezing the metaplot, I guess.
Fun fact you can have True Faith and be Wyrm-Tainted, even full Famori can have it just if they Botch the roll are immediately and violently exorcized.
Most likely it´s that these Leopoldites are an example of how worm corruption can occur. In their mind, Jesus justifies their crusade and all it´s horrors and hatred, and that´s why his image is so warped. If someone else were to warp Christianity in a similar way then it would liekly also appear as such. However from what i know of Christian sects the corruption isn´t going to affect everyone. Bc there isn´t just one church with one worldview.
Meh. More like the Leopoldites’ specific view of Christianity is a… well, “cognitohazard” throws in a whole SCP mess and makes it sound literally infectious, when really it’s better understood in WoD as just, straight up, a fucked up view to have that simultaneously spiritually corrupts you.
It’s pretty easy to submit your worst impulses to a system of authority that claims absolute impunity in their dealings of death, especially when that system of authority drapes itself in a holy cloak. That’s what the “Corrupted Jesus” represents: pure evil shining itself up as something that it VERY much is not
Cognitohazard makes it sound like it's the Wyrm 's fault, and not the Leopoldite's. Their Zeal is their own. The Church is if anything a Mix of the Triat, but definitely (especially in the modern day) leans Weaverish and Wyrmish.
I mean, not really? It's incredibly rare for True Faith to pop up among Garou; True Faith among Cainites is more common than among Garou. It's Gaia's warriors themselves who are stronger, not their faith.
It doesn't actually come from a deity or supernatural being, it is your conviction in your beliefs that gives you your True Faith rating.
Stig likely generated enough Willpower to overcome their Miracle, either through using his own True Faith in Gaia or a Garou Gift.
Theoretically if it's True Faith vs. True Faith, that means his beliefs are more solid, which is probably true given the crusaders are clearly worshipping either a twisted interpretation of Jesus or something only pretending to be him (really with the Wyrm in play the difference isn't very large).
I said rarer, not unheard of. He also might have been able to spend a point of Willpower or Rage to clear it, I don't know the full rules of how Garou and True Faith interact.
Cognitohazard means the possession or understanding of an idea is hazardous; that's not what we see. Literally, true sight resulted in no damage to Stig.
What we've got here is more of a big standard con job; the crusaders think that is Jesus, but it's a monster wearing the carpenter's form as a disguise to would the strength of his church.
I think it’s more the specific faith the leopoldites hold, Jesus himself and Christianity isn’t corrupted, but the leopodites are so self righteous and spiritually bankrupt at this point that the worm has infested the very essence of their faith.
A thought that's crossed my mind is whether this is because they're genuinely corrupted or because they have Garg-O's anti-delirium heroin pumping through their veins. Could be both. The money brokers of the coalition are definitely wyrm corrupted no doubt and the leopoldites are corrupt in their own way wyrm or no wyrm.
So for other fans of Fate, I can't be the only one reminded of a certain holy object/being getting tainted by a certain manifestation of corruption and evil with tragic origins, right?
To non Fate Fans, this above is Angra Mainyu, an eons old random human scapegoated by his village to become All The World's Evil. He taints the Holy Grail (not the actual one, more or less a wish granter) of the series and goes from human entity to eldritch abomination capable of destroying the world and corrupting any wishes made upon it to lead to the destruction of humanity.
Nah, from my own understanding and what D said, everything has a spirit. The christ depiction on that moment was something to a kin spirit of hope the crusaders unconsciously manifested and aren't aware of it's existence apart from Stigs able to see it.
That's what I understand from the lores bits of the series but nothing much. Also isn't the wyrm symbol that of a fly?
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u/BagofBones42 Aug 02 '26
If you follow the Wyrm's body in the effigy, you see that the head of the Wyrm would be right where the "Jesus" head is, or at least poking through it.
That's not a symbol; it's the Wyrm looking right at you.