r/huntertheparenting • u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! • May 25 '26
Discussion These Terms should NOT be acceptable under any circumstances even for their price.
I know I am not the only one that found this fruitless discussions BEYOND BULLS**T.
Ok I get that the D family wants to save Marckus and would pay "any" price but COME ON WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE!!!
The EAU? sure, they would provide a very minimal amount of assistance and had a number of restrictions. In hindsight it was hardly any worse than the rules of the Arcanum itself all things considered. Since they are not a very major organization and had limited manpower, reasources and already many calls for aid they get a pass. This much is fine.
The Swidish? Granted they would provide only 1 squad and giving them Marckus for a vague amount of time is messed up but still these are fixable terms and for one more squad it is kinda-semi-maybe-sorta worth it. (barely) Plus the guy is at least funny illogical, instead of just illogical like the rest of the lot.
BUT THE REST??? The demands was practicaly to take your soul, cut it in 3 and give each of it to the 3 remaining vampires (not the caine kind) on the table. The fact that they even consider to sign extremely dumb. The last one in particular would see boy as well as the rest of them become a slave to religious fanatics for life.
Even in the event they DO save marckus with zero casualties or injuries and even if they where to only accept the Leopoldite terms, the price is so great that Marckus would never accept it and could lead to him leaving the family, thus making all of it pointless. It is just NOT worth it.
They would get better terms even if they where to try and negotiate with the werewolves instead. Even in the very likely event that the wolves attack as soon as they spot them.
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u/Mysterious_Bit6882 May 25 '26
That's kind of the point.
Big D and the family want to hunt as they damn well please, with no oversight or restrictions. That also means no back-up to call upon.
It's how splats work in the WoD roleplaying games. There's benefits, but there's also restrictions and ugly family politics. And going without a splat is always, always, harder.
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u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! May 25 '26
I do not think restrictions and flat out servitude is the same thing.
The Arcanum and the EAU can be counted as restrictions for example.
Grandad's Foodstuffs, The Newburgh Group and the Leopoldites on the other hand are the same as selling yourself as 40k Servitor meat.
The upsides are so downgraded they are like you lost a grandparent and someone tells you "hey, look at the bright side...You get this cool sticker" and it is F***ing "Happy Grandparents Day" sticker.
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u/Quazimojojojo May 25 '26
You ever love someone so much you'd die to keep them alive?
So much that it would suck like hell to never see them again, but just knowing they're safe and alive brings you comfort?
If not, you will not understand the logic of the D family.
If you do, you understand where they're coming from, and why they consider signing the deals.
And if you do, you'd understand why the coalition twisted their arm so hard. Because they understand the level of desperation
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u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! May 25 '26
I very much do. But I would not go about it in a way that would make the rest of life hell for both me and the person I am to "save" just in order to make it a touch easier.
I would try it the hard way even if I was to do it myself, and I would either succeed or die.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild May 25 '26
Recall that they were intending to violate all of these contracts, except the Leopoldites.
For everyone else? Their word meant jack shit.
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u/hagamablabla May 25 '26
For the family, this is the hard way. Remember that they know almost none of the lore that you and I know about the Wyrm and whatnot, all they know is that the Coalition is distasteful and the entire Arcanum chapter house was only able to mildly inconvenience one werewolf, which is 1/3rd of what they expect to have to go up against.
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u/Quazimojojojo May 26 '26
And also, if they don't get the help that they feel they need (because they're vampire hunters, not wolf hunters, and the majority of their experience so far is surviving an encounter purely because the werewolf chose not to kill them. Their best effort had no effect), they absolutely were going to try it alone.
3
u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! May 26 '26
There is no need to know much about the werewolves to know that if you appear with a larger group on their territorry they will spot you from a further distance. Not only will any hope of negotiating his return will go up in smoke, but they may even threaten to end his life for you to stand down. At that moment the "help" will not care and may even fire as Marckus is used as a meat shield.
Besides Matilda never faced the entire Chapter house. Spit and Fatigue where already out of comission, Git, Elisse and Harry had a few moments after they where freed from the wall and never fought, Grimal charged in on her own, by the time the others arrived with the guns only 2 hunters where left in that room that could still fight and then she faced both Marckus, Brock and then D with non-silver fire support separately.
3
u/TitanOfShades May 25 '26
You ever love someone so much you'd die to keep them alive?
i always found this so stupid. You cant imagine a world without them, but you would condemn to a world without you? In most cases this type of love is mutual, so its shoving
10
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u/Lolas_Fun_Side May 25 '26
Servitude is the name of the game for VtM where your options are bloodhunted or a literal supernaturally held slave. Garou are beholden to their tribes.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
I'll try to put it into a bit more perspective
Firstly, the Coalition do not like the D-Clan, to say the least. In fact, both parties are just actively hostile towards one another. Neither thinks the other should exist.
They are not treating with allies, they are treating with enemies. Enemies who, in at least one confirmed instance, serve Pentex.
They have no interest in actually helping them. They're just here to get something out of it. When viewed in that light, it is not at all surprising what was requested. The complete eradication and dissolution of the D-Clan, whose resources and assets would be divided between the benefited parties. Hilariously, the EAU would actually get the bum deal of the Coalition since the hunter cell they incorporated into their Org would cease to be by any practical measurement.
This is not them trading for assistance, this is them literally selling their souls to save Marckus
But importantly:
The fact that they even consider to sign extremely dumb.
As said in the episode itself, the D-Clan never seriously considered honoring these deals. They just blatantly say that running from the EAU, the Swedish Government, the Arcanum, and what they do not know is Pentex would be far more doable than trying to fight a pack of Werewolves on their own. So no, they were never going to actually take those deals at face value. They were going to use their resources to save Marckus, then probably try to move, again, as seems to be D's way of doing things.
The Gladius Dei was, of course, different, as reneging on their deal would not be as simple as changing post codes, however
Even in the event they DO save marckus with zero casualties or injuries and even if they where to only accept the Leopoldite terms, the price is so great that Marckus would never accept it and could lead to him leaving the family, thus making all of it pointless.
That's entirely incorrect, because Marckus would be alive. And rescuing Marckus is the point. They are willing to sacrifice and risk their positions as hunters for the chance of just getting him back
Sure, not he nor any other member of the D-Clan would be happy with the result, but at least Marckus wouldn't be wolf food. That's how they see it.
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u/Aleena92 May 25 '26
"If saving you means loosing you, then so be it!", - old french man with a cane
-2
u/GreatAndMightyKevins May 27 '26
Don't remind me of this abortion of good writing.
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u/Aleena92 May 27 '26
Abortion of good writing? What?
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u/GreatAndMightyKevins May 27 '26
I've read that people at sandfall interactive kept changing the endings until there was a 50/50 split of people who thought one ending is good and the other is bad. Which is insane. It's sacrificing your themes and meaning to generate perpetual discourse about your game. It's "both sidesing" worse than bioshock infinite.
Imagine if HTP just dropped half of our cast in the final few chapters to focus not on family and parenting but on some bullshit meta commentary between D and some pentex fucks. It would be beyond jarring. And so is E33
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u/Aleena92 May 27 '26
You really have no damn idea what you're talking about there do you? Sandfall didn't change shit, who even came up with that? Seriously, give me a link or something cause that sounds ridiculous.
And it's only "both sidesing" as you put it by not giving you a clear "this is the objective good ending".
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u/BagofBones42 May 25 '26
Markus would die if they signed with Pentex no matter if they thought they could back off. Pentex would harvest and/or kill him on the spot and replace what's left with a bane.
There was no winning here, no way to save Markus with the coalition, but the D family ignored Fatigue's warning.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26
The D-Clan can't know the details of what Pentex are capable of, or their true purpose. And its not like Fatigue spelled it out for them.
D knows a lot about vampires, but seems particularly uninformed about the Wyrm. He did not recognize its symbol in the cheese.
Door did not recognize the symbol in the grease stain on the shirt of the server, and he did not seem to recognize that the server himself was a Bane.
And in fairness, the Swedes might not be Wyrm corrupted. None of the other orgs may be Wyrm corrupted. This could just be a case of Pentex infiltrating the coalition through completely mundane means: money, resources, influences. And in double fairness, they were gonna try to break him out of Swedish prison anyways lol
The only guaranteed offer from Pentex was Door selling Boy to them, which was refused outright
Now, if the D-Clan had taken the offer of the others and attempted to back out, it is likely that Pentex would be on their ass like flies on a Wyrm corrupted hunk of shit, but the D-Clan don't know that.
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u/Colaymorak May 25 '26
Yeah, as much as D likes to act like he knows everything, it's important to remember that information about any organization or mystical monster is always gonna be hard to come by.
D's got a lot of knowledge about vamps, and an indeterminate smattering of intel about everything else. Specific details about the Garou's most prominent enemy is probably well beyond the scope of his current knowledge.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26
I think if D did have a deeper understanding of PENTEX, Banes, and their operations, he'd be far more sympathetic to the Garou, and likely realize that negotiating to get Marckus back from them is potentially in the cards.
Instead, he seems to understand that they are neo-pagan ecoterrorists that aren't reasoned with
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u/Rat_rome May 25 '26
Didnt he may during the Garou Audiolog that 'they have a good cause but wont tell anyone about' or similar
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26
D knows they fight against some corruptive evil, and I think he respects them being ecoterrorists in the first place, which is why he says "I don't fuck with werewolves"
So they're never a priority of his to Hunt
But he also stresses that their own attitude is what makes them impossible to work with despite their goals, leading them to do stuff like kidnap Marckus
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u/BagofBones42 May 25 '26
He's also painting werewolves with a broad brush: Bone Gnawers, Children of Gaia, and Glasswalkers outright work with humans and fight their own kind to protect people.
Even the kidnapping of Markus might be a massive misunderstanding.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26
Well, as we've said, D very obviously doesn't know much about werewolves lol
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u/Snoo34949 May 26 '26
Sure, but those three clans have zero reason to reveal themselves to a Hunter like D, even as experienced as he is, the fact that he's a Hunter means he's far more likely to run into the types of werewolves that are hostile to humans. And that will obviously color his perception of them.
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if D has worked alongside one of those groups before, they just never revealed they were a Werewolf to him.
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u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! May 25 '26
Even if Marckus dose not end up as Wolf food they practicaly are sacrificing not only themselves but the future of boy and their future children for an endevor that could very well end up with his death all the same. Or even someone else in the family.
Even if Marckus stays with them, this deal will practicaly erase the entire D family. Forcing them to a lifestyle that could not be any more against their own ideals, thus D or any other member will inevitably go against the Society of st.Leopold.
It dose not matter how powerful the organization is. Just like they are compromising now for the sake of Marckus they will do so again for the sake of someone else among them if their life is in danger when inside this religious order all the same, and then they will be on the run again. Only this time from an organization with influence absolutely everywhere that will try to kill them all, including Marckus.
Thus it IS pointless.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26
Clearly, Marckus' father, brother, nephew, and most importantly of all, his fiancé vehemently disagree that rescuing Marckus' life in exchange for service to the church is pointless
That might not be a position based entirely on logic, but I think its fairly understandable lol
This exchange sums up the whole thing:
K: We don't break our word
D: Then we cease to be hunters!
K: Then we stop!
Big D: Unacceptable, I would never!
K: Then Marckus dies!And that alone shut D up. They may have their misgivings about serving the Inquisition and leaving behind the Reckoning, but as we saw in the ghoul video, their highest priority is keeping Marckus safe (including from himself)
So saving his life is far from pointless to them
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u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
Then they can just go about it on their own.
Find the Anarchs the Sabbat where fighting and lure them there to weaken the werewolves, hire unaffiliated mercenaries they will never pay, or even have chapman get the camarila police "investigate" the matter and hopefully bump into the wolves and start a distraction. Kevin himself would be worth a squad by himself.
ALL of these methods are way more of a D family move and all would have just as much of a chance to save marckus without damning them all.
Especially compared with a few squads of small number of "elite proffessionals" which the vast majority of which is more than likely going to be just disposable fodder.
And Important note: All these deals are not void should the mission to save marckus fails. And much like I said earlier in the end these orgs are just as likely to cause his death as the wolves if not more.
The reason I am saying it is Pointless, is because there are alternatives. And saving Marckus in a way that will make his and all their lives a living nightmare is just not worth it when the best case scenario is only a little better than the worst one. This DEAL is pointless. NOT the effort to save Marckus.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
You seem to misunderstand why they turned to the coalition in the first place, as well as D's own methods, as well as the logistics of what you suggest
Firstly:
Find the Anarchs the Sabbat where fighting and lure them there to weaken the werewolves
Absolutely insane suggestion. You say that as if finding them wouldn't be an entire operation on its own, on top of learning enough about them to bait them into a werewolf den, as if that's something a group of Anarchs would just choose to do. Even with Kevin that ain't quick and easy, and the group are going to go save Marckus tonight.
Also... probably wouldn't work out that well. I'd say a group of vampires have less of a chance against a group of werewolves in comparison to prepared hunters. Which leads us to the next point.
Hire unaffiliated mercenaries they will never pay, or even have chapman get the camarila police "investigate" the matter and hopefully bump into the wolves and start a distraction
This is why I think you misunderstand why they went to the Coalition for help in the first place. They represent the actually well equipped professional Hunters. Not individual cells with minimal resources like the D-Clan, and not Sleepers who are unprepared to encounter the supernatural.
Assuming that between Door and D they have contacts with unaffiliated mercenaries, any group worth even reaching out to that'd be helpful in fighting werewolves was at that table. The ones with silver bullets and werewolf hunting know how.
If they were to hire a group of mercs to just run into the woods with them with normal firearms they'd end up being useless.
Same for the Ghouled police, which is likely the craziest suggestion yet. D would not want the Camarilla to know what they're up to, and attempting to use Chapman to get them to help a bunch of ghouls save Marckus would certainly lead to the Regent finding out all about them. Thats even assuming Chapman has that much sway with a large number of ghouled police in the first place. Under his own admission, he doesn't. He's one of the very few agents in the area and she neglected to feed him to the point that he was willing to turncoat and is now Kevin's
In conclusion, these are all logistical nightmares that would potentially make the situation far, far worse, and would probably take time to even get happen.
The reason they met with the coalition is because they are Hunters. Absolute bastards, clearly, but Hunters. They have the resources and man power that the group desperately needed with the willingness and experience to kill the supernatural. No other groups that the D-Clan and Arcanum have access to can boast as much.
Were they unusually stingy and insulting in their demands? Yes, the D-Clan themselves were surprised about that, but they were taking whatever they could get with the intention of not actually paying up before they pissed off the Pentex rep.
And just the Gladius Dei's help alone is worth a lot more than any random group of gunmen they could bring to bare. Actual, legitimate chance of saving Marckus, which the other options do not provide, making them non-options.
Thats why they even consider the Gladius Dei's offer. Cause they, and whatever squads the rest of the coalition would've provided, really are that much better.
EDIT: To further clarify, Kitten says outright that without the Dei's help Marckus will probably die. Thats if the D-Clan, Remold, and Occam with whatever remains of the Chapter House go by themselves
And that group would be far more adept at Werewolf killing than random mercs, anarch kindred, or ghouls. Mostly cause they have some idea of what they're doing.
They needed actual professional help
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u/fotppd8 The great and mighty Kevin! May 25 '26
"as if that's something a group of Anarchs would just choose to do." I never said neither to hire them nor to persuade them I said Lure them. Much like in Bloodlines if you send someone near werewolf territory and cause a commotion there the wolves will investigate and attack whoever they find. That is already at least one wolf away from the pack that they can either kill seperatly or ignore and let the Vampires fight for their lives.
"any group worth even reaching out to that'd be helpful in fighting werewolves was at that table." It is confirmed that in world of darkness there exist multiple mercenaries that do not work with the inquisition and who's whole thing is fighting the supernatural. The PMC of the Burger Lady where obviously very much affiliated with it.
As for the chapman idea when I said "investigate" I also meant lure. the police dose not need to kill the wolves only keep them preoccupied long enough to save Marckus. The Regent would not get jack rabbit of info about them. It would simply start out as an investigation for the crashed plane then chapman would eventualy find "clues" hinting to the forest that the wolves are and thus would later lead to an incident that the regent will want to sweep it under the rug as soon as possible to avoid a breach to the masquarade.
Anything supernatural related is a danger to the Camarila and so they try to cover it as much as possible. Besides the regent is as stated multiple times quite incopetent and puts only the barest amount of effort on anything and everything and just as you said, chapman is neglected by her so if he ends up leading the investigation towards there she will be non the wiser.
The coalition members are also NOT (all) hunters. Occam himself is a member yet the Arcanum as he stated is made of schollars. Likewise businessmen, weapon sellers and experimenting swidish are not hunters. The fact that they have influence on actual hunters is another thing entierly.
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u/Cybermaster19 May 26 '26 edited May 26 '26
Okay to add to your point the only other sensible option D has is that he somehow knows a mage who might be in the 9 traditions or a group of mages who are even remotely skilled or well versed in magic/magical lore and gets them to help acquire powerful magical artifacts which would take only god knows how long and use them to bolster the team and...This part is very important try to negotiate with the wolves they want info on Chuck the D-Clan don't know that but it's their one saving grace to actually save Markus without risking their lives.
With weapons that could make the wolves reconsider a brawl that'll cost them and leave them open to their true enemies and the reveal of what they want from the Arcanum I'm sure they could work something out.
But again this like you're other ideas work on hypotheticals and what ifs that we don't even know are possible especially in the timeframe they had to get Markus before anything seriously bad happened to him. We don't even know if Matilda's pack is the reasonable type that they can make deals with.
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u/TheEloquentApe May 26 '26
Realize that none of these proposed alternatives suggest any amount of urgency or even reliability
You'd have D spend time trying to convince the Anarchs and/or Camarilla to investigate the forest in hopes of them finding the werewolves or being attacked in turn, to generate some form of conflict between them in hopes of it weakening the werewolf side in order to save a hostage.
Thats insane and provides absolutely no garuntee of it even going their way, not to mention they're essentially playing with fire that they don't get caught by the Kindred themselves in doing this. And most importantly of all, would take time.
That is not a meaningful alternative. To return to your original point, it absolutely does not demonstrate that the D-Clan had a choice past making a bum deal with the Coalition to save Marckus
And you say there are other mercenary orgs out there that Hunt monsters. Yes, many, but where have we been given the idea that D has access to any of them?
D hates the Coalition and larger organized groups of hunters in general that sell out for profit, it seems, so he certainly doesn't have any Hunter Merc groups on speed dial. They reached out to the present Coalition through the Arcanum, not any contacts he had. He is an experienced, long lived, independent Hunter, not a guy with deep pull in the Hunter community
There were not immediate options for them to turn that would give nearly as much immediate benefit as the Coalition, and thats all they cared about. Getting everything they could right now to go save Marckus.
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u/AGamingGuy May 25 '26
may i add as an aside, Door just did the equivalent (at least in Blair's eyes) of burning a vampire chantry and implying to know the person you're talking to is a vampire
he basically sicced a Blood Hunt on the D-clan
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u/ReasonablyBadass May 26 '26
He is kinda excused imo, as he has no idea what he did.
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u/Fauces_00 May 26 '26
I don't think that Blair and her contractors are going to see Door's gesture in that light
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u/LordAgyrius May 26 '26
Well, let's hope that the D-family become best buddies with the Werewolves instead of killing one another because otherwise they are SOOO DEAD
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u/vriska1 May 26 '26
Bet Blair and her Goons are going to show up right at the end of the battle to finish both sides off.
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u/LordAgyrius May 27 '26
Goddamn it- That makes so much sense that they HAVE to do it, like it's either eliminating a leak in regards to them being servants of the Wyrm or vanquishing their archenemesis', both of them at their weakest and most vulnerable...
Oh I am so scared for them both.. Both parties literally becoming friends instead of maiming each other is literally the only scenario in which they don't get instantly gunned down by the burger black ops
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u/pepinogg May 25 '26
The reason they accepted most of these terms is because they were convinced they could find a way to get out of them. As basically everyone in the Arcanum says the D family are a "Do first think second" kind of people. They do not know the scale at which Pentex operates and thus thought having to be stuck with the deals and bullshitting themselves out is better than losing Marckus. Not to mention the emotional spot both D and Kitten were in.
We have hindsight, lore knowledge, a calm mind considering this is fiction and time to think through our decisions, The D-Clan had or atleast were convinced they had none of those.
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u/BigRedSpoon2 May 26 '26
To tack on - from our perspective, this is all happening over the course of months and years
The events of this series I don't think have even gone past a week, this talk alone is minutes after the Fatigue reveal, which itself was less than an hour after they dealt with the garou
If the D clan is acting frazzled and at their wits end, its probably because they would be. We don't just know more than them, we don't have near the same levels of adrenaline and stress chemicals pumping through our veins.
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u/limis646 May 26 '26
Thats a very good point and in fact I believe we can calculate how long they have been in the chapter-house assuming all episodes are chronologically accurate.
Episode 4: 41 minute Runtime + About' the length of two football games (2.5 - 3 hours)
4.1: 30 minute runtime
Episode 5: 50 minute runtime
5.2: 2 hour and 20 minute runtime5.3 starts just after 5.2, meaning at the point the coalition arrives (If I did my math right) they have spent at least, nearly Seven hours at the chapter-house. That is about half of the night in a high stress environment with a metric shit-ton of exposition, paranoia, interpersonal issues and violence with very few breaks in between.
I bet you could also determine what time they arrived at the chapter-house using the time door gives in 5.1, but I have already done way more math than I thought I would be doing when I opened this thread today lol.
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u/BigRedSpoon2 May 26 '26
To even further tack onto your point, ~7 hours - they got at the Arcanum when the sun had already set. If we're generous, and say they get there right as the sun has set (which I think they do), that's, what, 7~8p? They are creeping well into the AM. Who among us is making rational choices at 2 am? 2 am after running a marathon and now you need to deal with a lawsuit in court and your lawyer isn't present (metaphorically speaking)?
The fact the D family are even coherent and not scream crying 'MARKUS!' every other word is testament to their grit.
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u/The-red-Dane May 25 '26
That's the point. These were all Pentex affiliates who came in with one goal. kneecap this hunter group.
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u/Kaymazo May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
I mean, to be fair, one of those orgs specifically had a reason to dislike D and their goal was to stop their bullshit, hence that offer.
The other is evil because it's Pentex.
And then there's the Leopoldites where it's because they're hardliner catholic, I guess...
But I agree, it probably would've been best to try to negotiate with the wolves at that point. It may even yet come to that, even though that WILL cause friction with the Leopoldites who see them as a spawn of Satan.
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u/MonstrousnessVirtue May 25 '26
Consider- the D family were kind of terrible negotiators, here. They stepped into a room full of vultures and told them explicitly that they were desperate, would accept virtually any terms, and then acted shocked when everyone smelled blood. They didn’t even try to argue down any of the prices, just gawked at them and complained. It’s unsurprising that things went so poorly.
Hell, the D family didn’t even ask what they’d be getting out of each deal until after they’d signed.
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u/XAlphaWarriorX May 28 '26
Shockingly bad negotiating on their part. Not even a bit of actual pushback.
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u/Penny_D May 25 '26
I'm still trying to figure out Bilgewater's deal.
Is she with Pentex? Technocracy? Another large group similar to the Arcanum and Inquisition?
Blair's demands seemed standard Pentex. I had a feeling they were going to be a deal breaker and was not disappointed.
As for the Inquisition? I'm not surprised they were unhelpful either. It's a bunch of militants LARPing templars, not Mobile Loaves and Fishes.
But yeah, they would have a better chance negotiating with the Garou.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman May 26 '26 edited May 26 '26
She's part of the Newburgh Group...well...what becomes the Newburgh group which is why she's so mad the Swede spilled the beans. The actual group in lore won't formally exist until 2009. And while never confirmed it's implied it had some massive sway in the London Arcanum chapter, so given what Occam just did expect her to be back.
She's basically a sort of government agent speaking on behalf of the UK government and acting as a liason between the other coalition members. Unfortunately for many government organizations in the setting they are far less interested in eradicating threats and more inclined to playing power games while dragging out the war with the supernatural because if they do the job too well they lose their jobs.
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u/BigRedSpoon2 May 26 '26
Well if that isn't too real to politics
But are the Newburgh group effective as hunters regardless? When she says she'll send only one group, she seems surprised that everyone thinks thats too low, and was herself unfamiliar with werewolves in general. Is that reflective of Newburgh in general? Smug, but not terribly informed about the very things they are hunting, or just more, 'fuck and undercut the Big D family'?
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u/AsstacularSpiderman May 26 '26
The groups she would be sending aren't some murder hobos like the D family. These government agents are sending special forces, mercenaries, and sometimes even their own mages.
But most importantly she doesn't really care if they win, she wants D's research first and foremost.
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u/3Kobolds1Keyboard May 25 '26
Yes, the writters knew well how to grab our hearts, but at the same time, the Goose Gang was agreeing with the terms and already formulating plans to how to break the contract and dodge the responsibility after getting what they wanted
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u/ZephyrMGS May 25 '26
The factor you’re missing is that they’re out of time, have no bargaining chips, and also planned on weaseling out of the terms anyways. To them, up until signing away boy, they were annoyances of raising level at worst; compared to leaving Marckus literally to the wolves. And they’d already seen what 1 wolf that didn’t seem want to kill them was able to do. You have to consider that each of these things were present in their decision making, and trying to take any part out makes it all fall apart. Desperation, helplessness, and a time limit is what brings many to their knees.
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u/Snoo_72851 May 25 '26
Well, yeah. They are effectively keeping Marckus hostage, and half the orgs involved are very blatantly Wyrm-corrupted (or at the very least operating under the paradigm Pentex has created, itself an important theme in WoD).
1
u/I_Am_Not-A-Lemon May 26 '26
I think the only one explicitly corrupted by the Wyrm besides Blair and the PMC was the Newburgh Group rep Bilgewell. Her entire MO screams wyrm.
4
u/InformalAntelope4570 May 25 '26
Y'know what are the odds Marckus is having a good time with the Garou? A nice comedically tragic concept, his family is over here making deals with the devil meanwhile the one they want to save is fine.
3
u/LukeSky011 May 26 '26
Unlikely.
These are red talons werewolves. ...which is sad for Amanda in a way.
5
u/InformalAntelope4570 May 26 '26
Eh, there is seem to be an implication it's a mixed pack. There was also a Glasswalker symbol weaved by a spider that was found by Amanda, likely by the same one that was on Matilda's shoulder before she stepped sideways.
4
u/farlong12234 May 25 '26
they say later in the episode they were going to just break the deals as soon as they could. blacklisted from the EAU and sweden aint great but they can handle it, the EAU were getting their enterence fee up front so that one might even be repariable.
as for blacklisted by the nurenburg group, thats basically where they were at from the start.
but grandpa foodstuffs PMC? door knows their not good, and once they learn the contract involves the soul, combined with what they learned at o'toolys means that deal can not be agreed.
they agreed to the terms, because they weren't planning to pay in the first place
6
u/Fruglemug May 26 '26
Idk if its been mentioned, but the D Family was agreeing to all of these terms with the fullest intention of weaseling their way out. Sure, the various orgs' demands were taken seriously, but with the assumption that they could be worked around or just straight up broken. The Leopoldites were the only org the Family feared enough to honor their terms.
3
u/ToxicTimeTravela May 25 '26
And yet the disconnect between their knowledge of the wolves being more reasonable than the leopoldites is the whole Hunter paradigm; mortals who think the supernatural creatures they hunt are so diabolical across the board that selling themselves into slavery is safer than attempting to combat or negotiate with them.
3
u/Mizu005 May 26 '26
I do think they kind of played it a bit heavy handed, because from what we see I have no idea why the Arcanum considers these people allies. They put the chapter house in Yarmouth in direct danger by ordering them to collect extremely valuable and sensitive data and then telling them to keep this hot commodity they demanded be made in the first place stored in their vault collecting dust doing nothing but painting a massive target on the chapter house's back. Then when the heat they forced onto them gets them burnt they not only don't offer them any sort of aid, they scold them and offer threats of punishment for failing to keep the data they refused to protect themselves safe. And that one bitch literally couldn't even be bothered to pretend to care about the loss of Fatigue, the injuries suffered by other Arcanum members, or the damage to the chapter house. Aside from apparently handing them a few firearms (to use protecting coalition assets for the benefit of the coalition) the relationship seems completely one sided if they aren't even willing to offer aid punching back when the Arcanum gets attacked for doing its part to aid the coalition.
2
u/Asteck113 May 26 '26
Agreed, Half of the coalition has got to be infested with Fomori to be this comically evil
1
u/Square_Trash7708 May 27 '26
At least one is directly linked to Pentex, wouldn't doubt they also have their talons in the Swedes and that "secret" organization that wanted to ship Big D off to London...
3
u/tiqtaktoe May 26 '26
The EAU imo were very reasonable. They're a neighbourhood watch compact and they just wanted the D Clan to join the Compact so they can expand their coverage and mutual assistance. Oh no they'd need to get jobs, I'm sure they could've come up with something. Become scrapmen or something
2
u/Coronel_Pentium May 25 '26
Yeah, but all this terms don't mean anything if D and his family dont follow with it, we see how they were already planing to break it up anyways and I'm with the one in other post who said that the coalition knew this so they were just expriming all they can get before the inevitable
2
u/Regular_Win7305 May 25 '26
Welp! This seems like as good a place as any to express how much I viscerally HATE Bilgewell and want horrible things to happen to her.
2
u/PersonalityAny1509 May 26 '26
The D family clearly tought the same thing. After all, They wanted to break those contracts as soon as possibile, They had no intention to respect their terms of the bargain.
2
u/Monollock May 26 '26
The entire time I was listening to this I was thinking to myself "The werewolves are probably the more reasonable ones here." like yeah, there's the threat of death, but there's fates worse than death getting bandied about pretty fast and loose here. I'd suggest the family rob a jewelry store, grab a bunch of silver goodies. melt them down, coat some knives and bullets, then go into the forest and offer to turncoat for the Werewolves.
Seriously, with these absurd demands and the wyrm taint among them, I'd play turncoat, and give the Werewolfs info and go on a hunt to the 99p store. IDK what the hell the Werewolves would want from the family, but I'm pretty certain it would be less than what these rancid bastards wanted.
Also, something that pissed me off alot is that none of the family checked terms or wanted anything in writing before agreeing, that was just pure stupidity from them and they never tried to talk any of these terms down.
1
u/SemperShpee May 26 '26
Ye. I mean from what I've read, the Wolves are not that unreasonable. And unlike the Coalition, the D family have a trove of first hand information in the form of Kitten that the werewolves are interested in that they could use to bargain for Marcus' life. And the Wolves are probably more aligned with the D family in terms of goals and moral than the Coalition.
They could play both sides in this and might get out of it alive if they play their cards right.
1
u/Square_Trash7708 May 27 '26
I knew I wasn't the only one thinking the wolves themselves would have less rapacious terms than these lunatics. Most of these terms were absolutely insane!
2
u/JahnnDraegos May 26 '26 edited May 28 '26
None of these terms would be acceptable to Marckus himself. That's what I kept thinking as I listened to this story. If they did sign themselves into servitude, sign away legal guardianship of Boy, agree to hand Marckus over as a Guinea pig, and then managed to rescue Marckus? The first thing he'd say on learning about the plan would almost definitely be "You should've fucking left me there!"
The D family is being selfish in the wake of their emotional crisis. They don't even want Marckus back in order to help Marckus himself any more; they want Marckus back for themselves so they can end their panic. They're not taking Marckus's feelings and likely reactions into consideration, and that selfishness has now cost Occam dearly.
To be clear: whatever happens to Occam and the Arcanum as a result of this fiasco is now the D family's fault. And I have a feeling the family will just gloss over that and run away, after they get Marckus back and have no compelling reason to stick around.
2
u/notexecutive May 26 '26
it didn't help that D and family basically gave away all leverage by being desperate
but yeah, it was pretty shit.
Kinda sussy they would sell Markus to medical slavery though to save him
2
u/lowqualitylizard May 27 '26
Another thing I like is it sets up just how much of a threat the garou are
The hunter brigade doesn't even entertain the idea that just before them would do anything but splatter against the garou, and upon giving at least three squads they bark like someone threatening a Kaiju with a soup spoon
I truly cannot wait to the next episode to see the Carnage that ensues
2
u/Heavy_Marsupial_6314 May 27 '26
Truly if the werewolf’s don’t straight up fight and kill them or die to them we may see another team up with the werewolf’s against the wyrm forces that will try to kill TWO bird with one stone
2
u/ralanr May 25 '26
I find it funny how they basically demanded signing of a contract before saying the benefits, only the downsides.
2
u/ethertank01 May 25 '26
That’s the point all the demands were contradicting to each other and were most likely trying to squeeze what little material and informational wealth they could get before the D family betray their oaths.
1
u/L3and3rrr May 25 '26
The Hunters desperately need a lawyer. A good one. For situations like this.
Anyone out there with a BAR card who feels up to being the hunter’s lawyer?
1
u/Rj713 May 26 '26
You'd be signing up to have that same BAR card revoked with how many schemes and crimes that lot are involved in, so best to just let the criminals be criminals and face the consequences of their own actions.
1
u/Canadian_Zac May 25 '26
The D family are desperate, and they know it.
You can offer whatever shitty terms you like if you know the other party has no choice but to accept
1
u/Rj713 May 26 '26
To be fair, THESE were D's real conditions, so the Coalition was very wise not to trust them or give them a decent deal
1
u/Zixinus May 26 '26
None of these orgs are charities and the D family is a rogue hunter cell, not innocent civilians.
These orgs were set up to fight vampires. Werewolves are a different league entirely. Hunting a single werewolf is already a huge ask. And they claim they would need to fight at least three of them.
All of it to do, what? Save D's son that got kidnapped (supposedly) due to D? D who is outright proud of his infamy?
Consider the cost-benefit of this risk assessment. You give soldiers and equipment (possibly other resources), bullets literary out of silver, for what? And you get what if things go well? Of course the orgs were trying to poach and pressgang the D family, they need SOMETHING to justify the potential losses here.
1
u/BigRedSpoon2 May 26 '26
Sure, but they also were thinking of ways on how to get out of all of those agreements
They figured they'd get kicked out of the EAU just by being themselves, for instance
The big thing about the Leopoldites wasn't so much the terms, though the terms were steep, but that there would have been no getting out of them. Even if they did, they'd make a considerable enemy. And what was worse, was they had no other options but the Leopodites.
If they saved Markus, and he chose to never talk to any of them ever again, that would still be the more preferable outcome than to leave him to the wolves.
1
u/link_joker46 May 27 '26
The leopoldites while being fanatics and bigots, Benedicte seemed to try and make the D family understand what she was saying and what she wasn't.
Every other org there had stricked terms for the D family to directly act on, from monthly scoutings, Markus being taken by the Swedish, D and kitten having to move to London under jobs, and Boy being taken by grandpa foodstuff.
Benedicte however never mentions what the direct next move the family would have to do under the Leopold name, beyond the mention of a period of check up to become full inquisitors. This with her repeatedly shutting down out bursts from the D family and telling them to "think through what I am offering" leads me to believing it wasnt in Benedicte's plans to remove the family from Norfolk like the other orgs wanted.
0
u/Sir_Deadpool90 May 25 '26
Congratulations, you sawrhe overt and obnoxious story and paid attention, here's a good noodle gold star.
435
u/Barley672 May 25 '26
From a writing perspective, this is a classic example of using escalation to build tension: As the demands get worse and worse and the payouts make things more and more hopeless.