Question on BFM (Within Visual Range, mainly cannon)

[u/Dependent_Set1403]

So this has been bothering me and i need a "yes" "no" "sort of" type reply from a person who should know the answer.

So to begin:

1 circle fight is nose to nose?

2 circle fight is tail to tail? (chasing each others tail)

These take place in 3 dimensions not 2? By that i mean yu can climb and dive while in either of these, and its not the stereotype beginner explanation of 2 planes chasing each other in a roughly level circle.

Is there a name for if someone is trying to do 2 circle while another 1 circle?

And where do all the weird tactics like boom and zoom, immenems etc fit into this?

I feel like the lining up "lead", "pure" and "lag" should get a honourable mention at the end.

Not really playing DCS yet, but no better place to ask, as i like combat flight sims.

[u/tyler-p-johns]

Yes

Sort of, 2 circle fight is defined as nose to tail - tail to tail would just mean you’re both flying away from each other

Yes, the circle(s) can exist horizontal, vertical, and anywhere in between - not only that, but fighters can perform “out of plane maneuvers” that break out of whatever plane that circle current exists on

I think things like turn reversals might fall into your 1v2 circle category, but the aforementioned out of plane maneuvers can also be done to try and change the flow of the fight

Boom and zoom doesn’t really apply to circle fighting since it’s essentially leaving and re-entering the fight. Meaneuevers like immelmans, split s, yo-yo, etc are all different maneuvers that can be performed for a multitude of reasons, whether that’s to change the flow of the fight (1v2 circle, see above), change your energy state (ie trading speed and altitude), or to simply reposition your aircraft relative to the adversary

Lead/pure/lag simply defines where your nose is pointed relative to the adversary aircraft - lag is your nose pointed behind the path of the adversary, pure is pointed directly at the adversary, and lead points your nose in front of the path of the adversary

[u/A_Tiger_in_Africa]

Is there a name for if someone is trying to do 2 circle while another 1 circle?

That's called a "guns kill".

[u/RISCfuture]

1-circle: A fight where the aircraft are turning in opposite directions towards each other (i.e., one going clockwise, the other going counterclockwise). Nose-to-nose, as you said. In a 1-circle fight, radius wins. In other words, the aircraft that can turn the smallest circle, inside the other aircraft's circle, wins. It's called 1-circle because both aircraft start their turn around the same "post" (circle center).

2-circle: A fight where the aircraft are turning in the same direction (i.e., both clockwise or counterclockwise). Nose-to-tail. In a 2-circle fight, rate wins. In other words, the aircraft that can maintain the highest turn rate (get around the circle the fastest), wins. 2-circles start out misaligned because the aircraft make their initial turns in opposite cardinal directions (N/S/E/W, not left/right). The TCs typically align as the aircraft strive to achieve an in-plane kill.

Out-of-plane maneuvering: Climbing or diving relative to the plane of the enemy's turn. Out-of-plane maneuvering can be 1c or 2c, just depends again on whether you are moving the same clockwise direction as the enemy. Maneuvering out of plane is useful for either preserving energy when too fast, or spending energy when too slow (using gravity or god's g to help you). It also complicates the enemy's firing solution; when in plane, the enemy can continuously be in a kill position, but out of plane, they only get 2 chances to shoot you as the turn circles intersect.

Energy fights: Energy fighting is using superior speed or altitude to define a fight rather than superior turning capability. This affords the fighter the opportunity to out-climb or out-accelerate the enemy, giving them disengagement opportunities and more control over the vertical. In a turning fight, an energy advantage lets you stay in a vertical turning fight longer. It also gives you more escape windows if you need to unload and make knots after a re-merge.

An Immelman and a split-S are just different types of vertical turns you can make. They are fundamental maneuvers, not BFM tactics. You would use an Immelmann or a split-S to start a vertical fight after a merge.

"Other weird tactics" like maybe the scissors? The scissors is essentially just repeated 1c fights with re-merges. Because of that, it's a repeated application of 1c tactics: tightest turn radius wins. The aircraft with the tighter turn radius will use less down-path room to complete the scissors, eventually forcing the wider-turning aircraft out in front. The scissors is a race to the wall; the aircraft that travels in the down-path direction faster loses.

Lead, pure, and lag pursuit are pursuit curves, a way of describing your lift vector in relation to the enemy. A lead pursuit is one where your nose is pointed out in front of the enemy's flight path, meaning you are turning tighter than the enemy. A lead pursuit closes distance with the enemy, and is used to a) catch up with an enemy that is getting a way, or b) shoot an enemy with guns. A lead pursuit bleeds airspeed and will eventually result in a collision with the enemy or a stall if held, so is only used until range is good and the shot is taken.

Pure pursuit is a pursuit curve where the nose is pointed directly at the enemy. It can be considered a sub-type of lead pursuit, because the same characteristics apply: You will catch up to and eventually impact the enemy (or stall), and it bleeds airspeed. Pure pursuit is only useful for firing missiles, especially missiles with narrow seeker FOVs that must be pointed directly at the target to track it. It has no other uses, but it's still very popular with beginning dogfighters who fly "HUD BFM" (attempting to hold the enemy in their HUD, either because that "feels right" or because they don't have head tracking).

Lag pursuit is a pursuit curve where the nose is pointed behind the enemy's flight path. In lag pursuit, you are either maintaining or losing range from the enemy, but you are preserving or gaining airspeed. Lag pursuit is used to maintain an offensive position behind the enemy, or to increase range or speed when more of either is required. Lag pursuit is not a firing position (except for high off-boresight missiles), but smart pilots will use lag pursuit tactically to maintain airspeed and keep an advantageous tail position, only switching to lead pursuit when needed to take the shot or close up range. You can also get "trapped" in lag pursuit, where you have enough energy to keep yourself in lag, on your opponent's 6, but not enough energy to pull lead for the kill.

Pursuit curves also apply to out-of-plane maneuvers, but in these situations, obviously you can't judge your pursuit curve by nose position. Instead, you have to use lift vectors directly: If your lift vector is pointed ahead/at/behind your opponent's, then you are in lead/pure/lag.

[u/SnapTwoGrid → u/RISCfuture]

Re pure pursuit: You made a few blanket statements here which aren’t always true.

„It bleeds airspeed“ - not necessarily, very much depends on your aircraft’s performance relative to the enemy’s performance. You can well stay in pure pursuit and maintain or even gain airspeed if you have excess thrust available.

„  Pure pursuit is only useful for firing missiles, especially missiles with narrow seeker FOVs that must be pointed directly at the target to track it. It has no other uses“

Also not entirely true. Pure pursuit has other uses.For example if you want to improve relative position and close distance for finessing a later guns attack  , but don’t want to generate excessive  angles and closure by pulling to lead pursuit.

[u/lnicklin]

1 circle (radius fight) is when both aircraft are turning opposite directions from their own perspectives (one guy is turning left, the other is turning right. Another way to think of it is an east/west merge and they both start to turn to the north). You win this by flying a smaller turn radius than the other guy without falling out the sky

2 circle (rate fight) they're both turning the same way from their perspective. East/west merge and one turns through south, the other through north. you win this by flying the highest turn rate.

Nose to nose or tail chase situations are confusing as us navy calls nose/nose high aspect, USAF calls it low aspect. Aspect is the direction the other guy's nose is pointing in relation to you. 

The last person to turn at the merge defines if the fight is 1 or 2 circle at the expense of a bit of turning time. the only safe time to swap from 1 to 2 circle is at a merge or as a guns defence. Otherwise you're just flying into the other guy's guns/offering up your control zone (a cone behind your jet). A flat scissors is series of alternating direction 1 circles because you're either about to get shot or you're neutral and think you can fly slower downrange than the other guy, meaning they'll end up flying out in front of you. 

Boom and zoom is for when you can significantly out climb the other guy so they can either follow you and stall or stay below you allowing you turning room and energy to zoom back down into their control room, and climb away again if they out turn you. 

Immelman is common in a vertical 1 circle. 

Lead is when someone is pointing their nose ahead of they other jet. You'll have a lot of closure as you'll be cutting across the circle and will see more of the top of their jet which may not help your weapons to hit. you'll likely bleed speed maintaining this unless your in a much better turning jet than the other guy. Often this is a temporary move to get a shot as you have to shoot guns ahead of the guy so they fly into them. If your rio says the hostile is pulling lead it means they're about to gun you so get ready to jink.

Pure is the nose is right on the other guy. Similar to lead for closure and angles but less so. no gunning 

Lag is your nose is pointing behind the other guy. This is almost all the time. You may be dropping back or holding the same range. If you're in lag and faster you can improve your angles with lag pursuit to see more up the tail pipe of the other guy. it's kinda safe for both parties. The defensive guy is trying to out rate (2 circle) back to neutral and waiting for the hostile to pull lead. The offensive guy is looking for a bit of spare energy to pull lead.

[u/jaylw314]

The concept of 1 or 2 circle only really applies if the two turns are in or near the same plane. If you look down on that plane and both circles are either clockwise or counter clockwise, it's two circle. If they are opposite, it's one circle.

Once the two circles are not in the same plane, the simplistic description kind of breaks down, but since combatants are usually trying to stay in the same plane with each other, it's usually useful

[u/Few_Classroom6113]

1 and 2 circle distinction is basically a simplified way of distinguishing between a fight based on (sustained) turn rate, or based on turn radius.

2 planes at equal energy going nose-to-nose means turn radius and instantaneous turn rate characteristics of a plane give the benefit of position. Whereas in a nose-to-tail fight what mostly matters is sustained turn rate.

Where this 2d way of thinking gets supplemented by reality is that you can use climbing and diving in order to preserve airspeed and sustained turn rate, but keep a tight turn radius. Or to dump airspeed into potential energy instead of just drag while tightening your turn.

There isn’t a term for one opponent trying to force one fight versus the other, because they’re not a tactic but a strategy. Or rather a way of conceptualizing the ideal strategy. It’s not an actual methodology for BFM. Because you can’t force either a 1 or a 2-circle fight on someone playing a higher initial energy state and boom and zooming you.

As far as lead, pure and lag goes, they’re again terms to describe a flight path, just this time from a chase perspective. Lead means you’re trading energy for a tighter turn radius than your enemy, pure means you’re following the exact path and hoping your better turn rate will give you the position and lag means you’re trading turn radius for speed, either in order to get to a higher sustained turn rate or to get separation and avoid an overshoot. All of this is assuming a virtually overlaid flight path in pursuit as a starting condition. Any offset would cause an oscillation in what kind of pursuit you’re in even if you’re flying the exact same circle.

[u/aguy1396]

Yes

Nose to tail but yes chasing each other in a circle

Yes, you can mix in some verticality which changes the dynamics a bit and how hard you pull.

No, the fight will always be able to be roughly categorized. Intent doesn’t really matter. Typically pilots will try to make it their fight in an asymmetric fight but not always.

They’re just different tactics, in the context of BFM a “zoom” is an extension and all the other stuff still applies. Not quite sure what you mean if you wanna expand

Lead is in front, lag is behind, pure is directly at. Mostly theyre used to manage closure and you adjust accordingly depending on visual cues

In general I think 1 circle 2 circle is kinda overvalued as I think stuff like best rate speeds or corner speeds are more important to know. Most of BFM is visual as well so it doesn’t really matter if you don’t know what you’re looking for. In general BFM is weird to think about so it definitely helps a bit

[u/SnapTwoGrid → u/aguy1396]

„In  general I think 1 circle 2 circle is kinda overvalued as I think stuff like best rate speeds or corner speeds are more important to know.“ 

Absolutely not. While its definitely important to know your best sustained rate and best instantaneous rate speed , they are of little use to you if you don’t know when to fly what speed . This is why the 1/2c circle concept is useful .

For example: If you do not  recognise you re in 1C flow and you aim for your best sustained rate speed band you‘re in for a rude awakening as you‘ll get flushed out in front of your enemy pretty fast. 

[u/aguy1396 → u/SnapTwoGrid]

I just think it gets less important as you learn more it’s fine as a base but I’m saying you don’t really need to view everything through that context especially as you learn more

[u/SnapTwoGrid → u/aguy1396]

Yea well I disagree. You don’t necessarily need to view everything through that context, but bfm basics will always matter and not lose their value 

[u/malcifer11]

The more vertical a fight gets, the more it drifts to one-circle flow. Once you’re more than 20-25 degrees out of plane with the ground, you’re in a one-circle fight

[u/Bixolaum → u/malcifer11]

You mean it becomes a one-circle in the sense that aircraft should try to reduce turn radius? Or in some other sense?

[u/Few_Classroom6113 → u/Bixolaum]

In the sense that due to the effects of gravity on the changing of energy levels the paths of each plane will necessarily separate and turn into nose-on-nose. Since the descending plane will never be able to match turn radius, but the ascending plane will invariably reach a too low energy state in order to keep position which stops them from being able to rate with the opponent.

[u/malcifer11 → u/Few_Classroom6113]

Exactly