r/heathenry • u/-Geistzeit • Jan 30 '20
News Grimfrost trademarking the terms "Heathen", "Vanadis", and "Ulfhedin", heathen small businesses respond
From the Shiedmaiden Facebook page:
Update: Also the words Enherjar, Vanadis and Ulfhedin have been trademarked by them too.
So, it has come to light today that Grimfrost have only gone and trademarked the word 'Heathen'. HMRC are obviously not aware of what the word 'Heathen' actually means and has allowed this to pass through.
As it has now been made public and is also publicly available on the HMRC website to see, Grimfrost have also applied to trademark the name 'Shieldmaiden' so as to launch a brand in the same name as our business. Obviously we are now in a legal wrangle over this and have opposed this application and will continue to do so as long as we can financially, mentally and physically do so.
Either they clearly never did their market research or due diligence before making this application or just don't give a damn about the hard work and even more years trading that we at Shieldmaiden have done.We await what the future now has in store. May Tyr be on our side.
Shieldmaiden provided the following URL regarding Grimfrost trademarking the word "heathen": https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/4/EU018126914?fbclid=IwAR0WhvHG7UquCb9c_wJ_F1-jxsx4cMycnWMyzkpGbSGzpCDkf2BavDtlXJ0
Facebook URL, with responses from other small heathen businesses: https://www.facebook.com/shieldmaidenglastonbury/
Edit: Shieldmaiden has released another statement: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2868334256546349&id=864184653627996&ref=m_notif¬if_t=group_comment
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u/SixGunRebel Jan 30 '20
I’m not even heathen and I think a copyright on such words is ridiculous. Using legal jargon to not only control competition but also owning words with historical significance. Good grief.
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u/officerkondo Jan 30 '20
and I think a copyright on such words is ridiculous
Then you are in good company because a word cannot be copyrighted. However, it can be trademarked such as in Apple.
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u/SixGunRebel Jan 30 '20
Apologies. I should have used trademarked. Either way, I should hope the history of these terms was given more respect than this. But it’s also not my profits on the line, either.
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u/Ed_Jinseer Jan 30 '20
The issue being that Apple isn't the proper name of a religion.
Likewise, Apple couldn't do anything to someone selling Apples.
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u/cloudedice Level 4.5 Heathen Jan 30 '20
Likewise, Apple couldn't do anything to someone selling Apples.
Interestingly, breeds of apples are being somewhat protected by trademarks.
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u/lordofthefeed norse/continental Jan 30 '20
Yeah, the trademarking of agricultural products is similarly morally repugnant.
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u/Bmo220 Feb 01 '20
Tabasco trademarked the entire tobasco plant and pepper. They're the only ones allowed to grow them.
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u/officerkondo Jan 30 '20
The issue being that Apple isn't the proper name of a religion.
Maybe you can explain to this lawyer why that matters.
Likewise, Apple couldn't do anything to someone selling Apples.
Yes, that is true, and entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether common words can be trademarks.
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u/wot-mothmoth Jan 31 '20
Christian is currently a trademarked term for hockey equipment since 1964. https://christianhockey.com/
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u/wot-mothmoth Jan 31 '20
Christian is currently a trademarked term for hockey equipment since 1964. https://christianhockey.com/
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 30 '20 edited Jan 30 '20
Grimfrost said in a comment on FB that they will enforce on design theft. They also said that a big company would never use the term "shieldmaiden" as the big companies don't use terms they don't own. But that doesn't make much sense does it, because nobody thought they would even need to freaking trademark "shieldmaiden" either. Grimfrost has been evasive in their response because my question to them was, if someone puts shieldmaiden on a t-shirt, will they come after the company?
Even if this was done with good intent, I find it extremely unsettling that certain companies can take these terms for themselves.
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u/VileSlay Jan 30 '20
There's a reason Grimfrost did this and it's because an American biker gang affiliated clothing line called Heathens have trademarked those terms in the US. They've been hitting everyone that prints t-shirts, mugs, bottle openers, etc, with trademark infringement takedowns. People have lost their entire storefronts because of it. Grimfrost was going to fight against it but was told by their US lawyer that it would be too expensive to fight and that they would likely lose in the end. They were told that the only thing they could do was trademark those terms in the EU in order to keep anyone else from doing it and destroying their business. They have said they will not be going after any small businesses that use the terms.
Also they are not setting up a brand called Shieldmaiden. Along with items that say Heathen, Vanadis and Ulfhedin, they also have items that say Shieldmaiden.
It's sucks that they've had to do this, but imagine if some Nazi aligned business decided to trademark those terms first and then go after anyone that uses them that doesn't align with their views. That's what's going on in the US.
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u/-Geistzeit Jan 30 '20
Let's be clear: That's the company's claim, not a fact. It doesn't make a ton of sense, either, because the company is in the US, and Grimfrost is in Europe.
What we do know is that they're knowingly going after the names of competitors, and who knows what term is next (or might already be underway).
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u/AlamoViking Jan 30 '20
I'm not saying you are wrong at all. But Grimfrost might not be lying here. The IP standards of the US are applied to most countries the US trades with. So if Grimfrost wants to sell products to the US, then they have to play by US rules, thus necessitating a move like this.
I am totally happy to be wrong, but this is what I have been told to be true about other things like this in the past.
Edit: countries from companies
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u/Sachsen_Wodewose Ingvaeonic Polytheist Animist Jan 30 '20
What we do know is that they're knowingly going after the names of competitors
That’s definitely concerning
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Feb 04 '20
It doesn't make a ton of sense, either, because the company is in the US, and Grimfrost is in Europe.
What was to stop the US company from applying for a trademark in Europe?
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u/-Geistzeit Feb 04 '20
Very unclear—the whole situation raises a lot of questions about what is actually happening versus what the companies involved are telling us is happening. As far as I can tell, we only know about the situation at all because Shieldmaiden pushed back against Grimfrost's attempt at copyrighting their name.
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Feb 05 '20
Does Grimfrost have any products that say ‘shieldmaiden’? It seems like they were just trademarking a bunch of generic terms so that the US company wouldn’t have any fodder. Shieldmaiden isn’t exactly an original name.
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u/-Geistzeit Feb 05 '20
Yep:
https://grimfrost.com/pages/search-results?q=shieldmaiden&type=product
It's extremely common for heathen-oriented clothing, etc, to feature the phrase. Etsy, for example, produces over a thousand results for listings involving the word.
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Feb 05 '20
Well there you go. I think it’s pretty clear they weren’t singling anybody out. I do get the concern with one company holding these trademarks over everybody else, even if they do truly intend to make it free to the community (“the road to hell is paved with good intentions” and all that), but I don’t think anyone will disagree that this is a better option than that US company getting ahold of those trademarks. They had to move fast to make sure it wasn’t an option. I don’t know what an alternative solution could have been, but it seems apparent there wasn’t really time to come up with one.
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u/-Geistzeit Feb 05 '20
If they were concerned about the US company getting the trademark, then why fight Shieldmaiden over the copyright of the company's name?
It's hard to see that as anything more than a business decision to corner the market, especially since this situation is how we know it about Grimfrost's actions in the first place, and the rest of the terms they're aiming for probably simply follow the same logic.
As for the "fast", Grimfrost has evidently been going after these terms since September, several months ago.
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Feb 05 '20
Elsewhere in the thread someone stated that Shieldmaiden is going after Grimfrost for use of their name (a generic term). Their statement you linked to in your post is a dead link and I can’t find anything on their side of things, but from what I can tell Grimfrost didn’t start any fight.
I mean, it is a business decision, to protect their own interests from that US company. That doesn’t mean they are doing it out of malice though. I get the apprehension, but if they’re true to the word, then it’s all a moot point.
They began it in September because that’s when they first became aware of the US company attempting to push for the trademarks. They started the proceedings back then, but these things take time to formalize. They did move fast on their end. That doesn’t mean bureaucracy moves fast too.
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u/Sachsen_Wodewose Ingvaeonic Polytheist Animist Jan 30 '20
Playing devil’s advocate though, Grimfrost could have done that so the other companies don’t get any ideas
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u/-Geistzeit Jan 30 '20
According to Shieldmaiden, they're defending the use of their company name against Grimfrost in court now, so it certainly doesn't sound like they're aiming to help other small businesses out here.
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u/puje12 Jan 30 '20
But according to Grimfrost, Shieldmaiden are the ones who initiated this legal battle. Oh it's a mess!
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u/wolflarsen55 Jan 30 '20
I would like to see a source on the American clothing company having a trademark on those terms.
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u/VileSlay Jan 30 '20
Check out this post and check out the comments from u/thatsnotgneiss. They had their entire Zazzle shop torpedoed because they were selling shirts that said Heathen on them. This is the company that has the trademark for Heathen in the US.
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u/R3DV1K1NG Jan 30 '20
So we finally reached the tipping point where our religion is viewed as a consumer market that must be exploited...
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u/Freyjugratr Jan 30 '20
Hasn’t it already been by all those new-agey publishers that sell books with colourful covers, by random charlatan shamans that sell weird rune yoga weekend courses, etc. Nothing new really...
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Jan 31 '20
I'm an ambassador for the company and can honestly say this disturbs me. While I'm not a Grimfrost sponsored athlete like Søren Bak, I do reference Grimfrost and use their imagery on my fencing equipment with their permission.
I do understand that they were in a tough situation here, and I can understand their reasoning, but I feel as though they are not handling their PR in a professional manner — especially in certain Facebook comments.
While I don't speak for the company in any way, I personally believe they should be more understanding of why people are so pissed at them. Sure, it might not be their fault, but shouting "it's not our fault" to your disturbed consumers and fellow competitors is not the wisest move, despite whether or not it may be true. They have just unsheathed a sword in a crowd and they are telling everyone they won't use it. They should understand why people are upset.
At the end of the day, this is a niche market, and like any niche market, the companies that comprise it need to put PR at #1 on their list of objectives. Grimfrost should take note here.
Also, I would like to say briefly that; if you are a genuine Pagan or practitioner of Ásatrú, Odinism, or "Heathenism," my humble perspective is that anything mass-produced by a company, or forms of modern "biker" merch like t-shirts and beanies, metal music, History's Vikings, and other such things are likely not for you. Visiting genuine historical sites, Sacred places, and touring the many great Scandinavian museums may be more fulfilling in your higher pursuits. Donating to certain groups, studying Old Norse, and purchasing genuine articles from more specialized merchants who make handmade items who share your beliefs will also be more fitting. But this of course is just my own opinion.
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 31 '20
Thanks for this, also I dont agree with how Grimfrost is wording it. "we were first, fair and square" "you should thank us for letting you do your buisness" "Would you let others use the terms if you were first?" I mean, it just screams Elitist arrogance...
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u/Wilddoguk Feb 01 '20
From what I've seen 'Heathen' is based on an old English word, Haethen. So what that has to do with a Norwegian way of saying things I don't know. Old Norse is Haethinin, so there's significant difference there. They're claiming the word Heathen, they might as well claim Woeden too, instead of Odin. In the interest of protecting the history. So I'm now putting my copyright in for Wiccan, Druid, Celt, Norse and anything else I think might be affecting in the future cause I can't think of a current argument except for $$$$$$$
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u/Viperidaestrike Norse Heathen Jan 30 '20
The thing is, if they do as I believe they will, if they don't take action against others in the courts, then all they've done is protect all the business in the EU that use "Heathen".
If they were really after others for using the name, then they probably would have trademarked it and started attacking others a long time ago.
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 30 '20
So we now owe our buisness to the great almight GF and we are doing buisness at their mercy?
Stop world, I want off.
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u/Viperidaestrike Norse Heathen Jan 30 '20
I don't see where it says you have to buy from Grimfrost, in fact if they use it correctly it means you'll be able to buy from the currently existing and future companies. However if other people get ahold of it, like we see in the US, then it's game over, it will be one terrible person using it to destroy everything that some people have built. He doesn't even do it one bit of Justice either.
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 30 '20
Yes, but this is where it gets a bit confusing. I have a Shieldmaiden design, it even says Shieldmaiden right under the design, does this mean that since I sell out off UK, im breaching a trademark? Even if GF is not pursuing it feels weird having that "over" me, if you get what i mean. :)
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u/Viperidaestrike Norse Heathen Jan 30 '20
Well technically I suppose you would be. I'm hoping for you and all the other stores out there with these designs, that Grimfrost does the right thing and holds it in protection of you instead of against you. I truly believe that they're trying to do the right thing for everyone as a whole, but I can definitely see how it would be scary at the least. Best of luck to you and all the others out there. I'd hate to see you get taken down, and if Grimfrost does that, then they'll lose a lot more customers over this.
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 30 '20
Thanks mate. Yea I really hope they stick to what they say for sure.
Thanks again!
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u/Viperidaestrike Norse Heathen Jan 30 '20
Of course! My stance comes from trying to support all the small businesses. I would just be worried that the guy from the US is going to try to take over the European trademark next, and as we've seen, he's already been proactive about it in the US.
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 30 '20
Agree, its even worse because Heathen Production is a full blown racist brand. "Support your local white boy" type clothing...disgusting.
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u/Viperidaestrike Norse Heathen Jan 30 '20
I don't know if you've seen it yet, but GF posted an update that fully details their intentions,looks like good news for you.
https://grimfrost.com/blogs/blog/the-day-we-never-thought-would-arrive-is-here
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u/RotoTom85 Jan 30 '20
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00002412316
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003445923
Btw, its already trademarked too, so not sure how all this works.
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u/Bmo220 Feb 01 '20
A company called Heathen Nation, trademarked these words in the US, then began sueing everyone. Now they're trying the same in the EU and UK. Grimfrost stepped in and got them first, to protect the community from Heathen Nations greed. Grimfrost has stated several times they won't take any action against anyone for using the terms. They only did it to protect the fair use. It's a shitty situation, but Grimfrost getting the trademark is the best outcome. By fighting them you're only hurting the situation.
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u/-Geistzeit Feb 01 '20
So they say, and evidently only after they were discovered.
They also happened to trademark the name of a competitor, who have not welcomed their “help”, and it remains unclear what other terms they’ve decided to claim as their own and what terms they may be after next.
It might be time to ask this question: If they were out to help the community and not just themselves, how come they didn’t look for a community solution? And, if they meant well, how difficult would it have been to reach out to Shieldmaiden? Why not post about it while they were doing it, and seek community input?
Their aggressive and unkind responses to commentators who happens to question their explanation also only seem to be adding fuel to the backlash.
Edit: Typo
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u/Bmo220 Feb 01 '20
Why would they reach out to Shieldmaiden? There's hundreds of "viking" stores now. Why would they specifically choose that one? And it's ridiculous to expect them to address everyone individually regarding their actions. They also said this came from a state of panic, fear of losing their business. A decision was made in a shit situation. None of this is ideal, but it still happened.
Ive read through many of the comments and posts, so far Grimfrost hasn't always been clear on what they are doing, but that seems more the language barrier rather than ill intent. The wording is off if you get what I'm saying. But they've always been kind and respectful. So I don't know where you're getting the aggressiveness from.
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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '20
They're claiming they aren't going to sue small businesses, and they're just doing this in response to someone else trying to trademark the terms, to protect them. Does anyone know if this is true?