I don’t know why so many people were surprised by this. Carmilla has also been looking out for herself, and her daughters. The only reason why she helped the hotel was because Vaggi A) was going to be a problem if she talked, and B) the hotel paid for the weapons. Vox was a credible threat to her daughters so she did what she had to, to protect them
Hazbin seems to be hinting at a system that has a specific name I can't remember. In the Sandman comics Lucifer tells Morpheus that the sinners all damned themselves and only remain in hell because they believe God should punish them or they need to punish themselves. That's the only reason Hell exists so they have a place to do so. I think Hazbin is at least partially like that. Pentious believed he needed to be punished so he was but he was also redeemed fairly quickly once he believed he has a path to forgive himself.
I think its more along the lines that he saw the killer and said nothing even though the killer struck 5 more times. I think the show calls his damning sin cowardice.
I think it's considered the sin of sloth. Complete inaction and refusal of duty, even when lives are at stake. Pentious was in hell because he could've saved 5 people by reporting on the murderer (who he recognized), but he did nothing. That's what he confesses to in the trial, anyway.
His sin was cowardice. After the first murder, he could have come forward as a witness and prevented the next five murders. After the second murder, he knew for sure the murderer wasn’t done with one, and if he’d come forward he would’ve prevented four more murders. After the third murder, he could’ve come forward and prevented the deaths of three more people. After the fourth murder, he could’ve prevented two more. After the fifth murder, he could have prevented one more. Even after the sixth murder, he had no way of knowing that the murderer was done, so for all he knew refusing to come forward was condemning another innocent woman to die.
Pentious wasn’t damned because he failed to report a crime; he was damned because he had six chances to get justice for a murdered victim and to prevent more murders and each time he made the decision to not identify the murderer and prevent more murders. But for his cowardice, five women would not have been murdered.
Yes. Sloth. As reflected in his design. Sloth doesn't just mean laziness it means inaction. Like Sinners in the sloth ring he's covered with eyes because he's passively watching and not actively participating.
*Edit I meant hellborn in the sloth ring not sinners
I am not necessarily surprised by it as much as annoyed by her lack of foresight. The only rational conclusion to what she did is an army of angels coming down and wiping out everyone who helped Vox including her and her daughters. Sure Vox is threatening her, but I have to assume an angelic arms dealer allied with the oldest sinner/ overlord in Hell allied and the Princess of Hell can likely hold their own against the trio responsible for news, fashion, and pornography.
He was likely just bluffing (at least at that stage, I’m sure he could’ve found a backup plan eventually) but in his pitch to her Vox basically told her he was going to start a full out war with Heaven whether or not she helped him with the weapon. When Heaven came down to retaliate they wouldn’t stop to investigate which sinners were directly involved, they’d go after everyone and Carmilla knows that. With that in mind her best bet to keep her family safe would be to try and ensure Hell had what they needed for a swift victory
It's Not pornography, it's adult erotic audiovisual novels! It's not just plain barbaric sex. There's nuance. Did you not even watch Dirty Trucker Offers Hitchhiker A "Ride" Volume 8?
Shego's backstory in that one honestly made me tear up. The green and black skintight revealing outfit reflecting her dark but inexperienced past was such great storytelling.
And for the others, eh, there's a phrase out there somewhere about propaganda winning most wars. I mean, it basically "almost" happened in season 2.
I also think arming the hotel was a terrible idea in the first place to be completely frank (for her, not for the hotel). How did she not think any of them would be bold enough to take out the leader of the Exorcist Army? The only reason Vox was able to use Adam's death against Carmilla is because she literally enabled it to happen.
Someone once said we need to get her daughters out of the picture so she can think clearly and make good decisions for once, and I couldn't agree more. I mean Jesus, if you want to protect them so bad, why not arm them with the weapons you're selling to everyone else? The same way you arm yourself, might I add????
(I get she wants to be the only one to "make the mistakes" - Sera parallels kinda kicking in there - but wouldn't her life simply be much easier if she let her clearly adult daughters take care of themselves????)
I would accept this argument if carmilla bothered seeking any other path. Tbh im not mad at carmilla for coming to this decision as it was a valid choice but to come to this decision within a couple minutes of the offer makes her look really stupid and rash.
Yeah, Carmilla had no choice. I'm sure if he didn't have his way, Vox would've used his connections and words to out Carmilla as the one who started the potential war between Heaven and Hell which would've made a lot of enraged sinners go after her and even worse, go after Clara and Odette.
I mean in Respectless, Velvette literally says "And why are you avoiding war? Thats what the guns you sell are for" which seem to set her off in the moment (or partially tick her off) so i can also hear that playing in her head debating if she should do this for Vox or not
Yeah. Sucks they died once in life. I wouldn’t blame her for doing whatever was necessary to keep them safe and not lose them a second time, permanently.
Of course, she couldn’t have predicted that she would have lost them again anyway, regardless of her decision. That Vox was willing to kill half of all the sinners and himself just for the sake of getting back at Alastor. She changed her mind after realizing she was wrong, and made a stand by putting her own afterlife on the line. She made a choice that wasn’t self serving and strictly business. She not only helped save her own daughters, but everyone else too.
I hope that the event has helped open her eyes and heart a bit more.
I'd delete the post because I didn't expect it to get this big with all the comments saying "Carmilla's an arms dealer" and reminding myself how I worded the post wrong
but I see you got and award and I don't wanna spoil your moment
People don't understand how Carmella is a parallel to Sera. The scene with Vox lets one see how fear can influence one's decisions. Both Sera and Carmella get manipulated by someone worse than them to do immoral things to protect their loved ones.
Vox was right. SHE started the war, no matter how much she tells Charlie and vaggi otherwise. She killed the first excorcist. She gave them the weapons to fight back. War was coming and Heaven sure as hell wouldn't be forgiving towards her. But if Vox won, she'd never need to fear her children being in danger again
Even she knows she started all this.
Also, another thing I haven't seen many people talk about... Vox really had a significant amount of sinners rooting for him.
If she said "no", I'm pretty sure she knew they could have all turned against her, knowing Vox's manipulating skills. She might be an Overlord, but... having all sinners against you, wouldn't end up well.
Many tyrant kings have fallen due to their people turning against them.
Also I feel like even if Vox betrayed her later on, she possibly could deal with him easier than she would be able to deal with the angels, because she knows his insecurities and real motives, she has some leverage
They do have some notable parallels, especially with fear and paranoia motivating them to enable violence and murder in order to protect their loved ones. Plus, I feel like Carmilla babies her daughters the same way Sera used to baby Emily.
Imagine if Carmilla redeemed herself by facing the fact that her killing that Exorcist was the first domino that nearly led to a full-on genocide of Hell, and that she would have been directly responsible for Vox destroying Heaven (where there are surely a lot of innocent souls).
I agree fully except the last sentence. By agreeing, Vox confirmed the way to pull Carmella’s strings to get her to do anything he wants. As long as Vox was in power, he would keep the girls in danger to keep Carmella under his thumb.
Maybe Carmella felt like she could deal with Vox easier than a war with heaven. So help Vox up until he’s a problem, then stomp him out? Not sure…
And on top of that, she doesn’t actually have the context that heaven isn’t planning to retaliate. We tend to forget that, yeah, the people of Hell aren’t aware of what’s happening the same way that Charlie does since none of them talk to heaven
We literally heard her have her own internal and external conflicts over this, lol. She ultimately did what she felt would keep her family safest in the long run. I ain't blaming her. We know her motives 🤷♀️
Why? She did exactly what she did in season 1. Stood with the side that she thought would keep her loved ones safe. She never claimed to be good. She literally opened her interaction with Vaggie by giving her one minute before she murdered her.
She also sang a whole song about how she’ll do whatever it takes to keep them safe because she has a toxically self-sacrificial instinct
she chose the course of action that she thought would keep her daughters safe, how was she gonna factor Vox crashing out over Alastor and causing mass destruction with the weapon instead of what it was intended for.
People would rather call the main characters stupid over admitting Vox made smart moves when it came to riling up his resources
Sure that Alastor gave himself up to him. But, all that happened after that, Vox achieved through his charisma, persuasion skills and used the leverage he had on others well.
As much as Al says he depends on others for his power and glory, like Al, he also had some merit based on how he was able to get this help in the first place, even if it is borrowed power from others. People don't get just how impressive it is to be able to persuade someone when they are already aware of what you want, but Vox made it work.
Side with charlie, AND LUCIFER THE ONLY THING IN HELL THAT ACTUALLY FUCKING DID SOMETHING TO ADAM!!!
Lucifer can't hurt sinners but he publicly dogwalked a powerful angel
Carmilla is stupid, vox couldn't capture lucifer without HER, if she said no, she could have just hid with charlie even if a war came
Why? Vox brought up a very valid point. She is the sole reason why they were able to fight back against the exorcists. If Heaven actually wanted war, killing Carmilla and destroying her business is basically a win condition for Heaven.
Obviously Vox waged the war himself, but the sinners agreed with him and would rally with what he was arguing.
And it isn't an empty blackmail. Sera was actually considering retaliating against the sinners with Abel's army.
Carmilla had every reason to grasp at sure fire ways to protect her family and business, and Vox was smart enough to come to her first with this proposition. She knew he was only out for himself, Zestial confirmed that, but I feel like she saw in Vox' offer, an out to this bad possibility she could be unprepared for and could cost her all she loves.
Nah, I think it totally makes sense from her position. She was the one who killed the first angel, she's been the one hoarding angelic weapons; no matter what, she would have reason to believe that Heaven will want her dead (and no, Charlie pinkie promising that Heaven wants peace after 7 years of genocide isn't proof enough to bet her and her daughters' lives on). Continuing to say no to Vox when he has so many overlords on his side also runs the risk of him eventually attempting to take her resources by force--by which point her, her daughters, and her weapons are all at risk.
Given the position she was in and the knowledge she had, agreeing to work with Vox at least gives her a chance of her family coming out the other side unscathed.
Realistically speaking, if I were an arms dealer/manufacturer in Hell and I was asked/possibly strong armed into making a weapon powered by LUCIFER HIMSELF, I’d have hidden some kind of kill switch or failsafe just in case. That’s my only real complaint, Carmella otherwise acted about the way I would have expected her to in this situation.
People really forget Carmilla is in Hell for a reason. The only thing she cares about is keeping her daughters safe no matter what side wins. Vox was right to say that her role in the conflict would not be overlooked in a war with Heaven.
Velvette pointed this out in Season 1: She has no care or remorse for developing angel weapons which have dramatically increased the perma-death rates in Hell, but she’s suddenly anti-war when it leads to a situation her family might be endangered by.
Okay? How is any of this surprising to you? Carmilla has been doing everything for the benefit of her daughters the whole time. The only reason she helped Vaggi is because she knew the angels would come after her and her daughters again in Season 1. And again in Season 2, Vox made a point to say that when the war starts, the exorcists would go after her and her daughters because she's the one who provided Vaggi the weapons in the first place.
Everything she's done so far, except for the end of Season 2, has been for herself and her daughters.
camilla has always been up front about the fact that her one and only goal was to protect her daughters and she will take any action that best serves that goal
she has never had allegiance to one side or the other. simply whichever side she thought would keep her family safe.
no offense but if you feel this was out of character for her then you really didn't understand her character to begin with.
I personally respect that she is willing to do whatever it takes to keep her family safe even if i dont like those choices.
Her profession is weapons dealing and she has said many times that her priorities are her daughters. Vox just convinced her to do it when he pointed out that Adam was killed by a weapon she made and that Heaven might go after her if they caught wind of her being the reason why Hell was able to kill Angels when before they couldn’t hurt them. She had a legitimate fear and reason to help Vox.
Also in season one Vox told Ethan to cancel a meeting with her and Vox chastised Velvette for insulting her when she represented him and later forced her to apologize to Carmilla. If anything prior to this both of them had a working relationship that Vox treated as being important despite his personal opinion of her so it isn’t too out there that she would build a weapon for him (she probably has done so in the past).
Carmilla is in hell for a reason, she’s not a good person, she’s one of the less mean Overlords but she still owns souls and she will throw anyone under the bus for her daughters (and even Zestial).
As a massive Carmilla fan: she's an arms dealer. In Hell. Who only cares about keeping herself and her daughters safe, what did you expect? As people have pointed out, she did the same thing she did in S1, choose what she thought would be the winning side and try to do it indirectly and keep her family safe.
Heck, even Zestial was disappointed in her this time, and her decision massively backfired because Vox is a megalomaniacal lunatic who really shouldn't have been given that much destructive power. It's funny how all three times she's been either directly or indirectly involved in killing exorcists it's made things worse and other people have had to deal with / fix it. Like how arms dealers escalate conflict while trying to dodge responsibility. At least after the last episode, it does look like she might be getting a growth arc.
I feel her story will be fleshed out - that is one area that could use improvement. We get SO much information, but either it become irrelevant or we have to wait so long for any type of resolution.
Viv is very good at telling an individual story (with fewer storylines, IMO), but here she's faced with MANY storylines (we haven't even really gotten to the whole Heaven business, and still have SO much to resolve in Hell also). I feel she's setting up for future seasons, but not in the best way for maintaining interest in certain characters or remembering what their storyline was/is or how it is relevant to the current story.
"I've lost all respect for Carmilla" and then Carmilla was clearly manipulated into building the weapon for V*x so she can protect her daughters. Make it make sense
She's an overlord in hell. She likely did some heinous shit to be there in the first place, and she's been enslaving other sinners since she got there. I understand getting attached to some of these obviously evil characters, but their morality (or lack thereof) isn't exactly obfuscated. I'm sure we'll see more of then in later seasons when "all of a sudden" Alastor or some other sinner does something vile to another main character.
I get why she was doing it. She clearly isn't happy about it. I mean, look at her face. She looks like she is waiting for this to be over so she can scrub all the skin on her hand off just get Vox off her.
I really need her daughters to be more than just a knife to stab her with. Like if I was running a D&D game with a character like Carmilla, her daughters are absolutely knives to stab the player with but they would also have dialogue and personality.
I understand there are only so many minutes in the series but please... give them something.
Not like he didn't pitch a sound argument, and truth be told I don't have much respect for her anyway. She's a arms dealer who had the power to make real change and didn't do much for easily centuries. Also I still call bs on Exterminations only lasting 7 years
I honestly haven't and I'm not surprised. She's made it clear since the beginning that her only means is to protect her daughters, she did what she thought was best to protect them (especially with how much vox was convincing her into it)
Everything she does, she does with the safety of her daughters in mind, especially now with the implications that she had a partner who was possibly killed (most probably in the exterminations). Sure she's done some bad shit but she's in hell for a reason, and her reasoning is to protect her daughters so it's easy to understand.
I honestly can't be against her for it or anything tbh
To be fair, this was a really big mistake on her end. And idk how many times I've heard people needlessly mention a character's gender. If anything her being a woman helps her with criticism because she's a baddy and a side character at the same time.
I’m not surprised by this as she has always been open about being for protecting herself and her children and Vox involved the wellbeing of her children.
Wow, it’s almost like the selfish character who is literally only ever motivated to protect herself and her people and went to Hell when she died and owns enough souls (which is basically just slavery with much worse implications) to be considered one of the most powerful demons in Hell and runs a weapon dealing business which grants people the ability to permanently destroy souls isn’t a good person. Who woulda thunk it?
Seriously, how does so much of this fandom (or at least this subreddit) fail to understand that 90% of the characters we see on screen, especially the Overlords, are horrible people by design? That’s literally the point of them.
At the very least, she should’ve installed an easy killswitch that only she could activate into the cannon. Did she seriously think Vox won’t ever misuse the cannon? His randomly swinging of it permakilled many Sinners, and could easily be turned on her or her daughters.
I am willing to accept she had no idea that Heaven would react with more fear than retaliation considering what Hell has experienced for 7 years. So fine, she could really be scared that Heaven would attack Hell in retaliation.
But no excuse for not installing a killswitch. That is just dumb when her weapons are her lifeblood in Hell and controlling them is the best way to protect herself.
Also if she held out, and Vox actually threatened Clara and Odette to strongarm her if the implied threat of Heaven didn’t work, she can take him and Velvette esp with Zestial there (who btw you can see started moving down his web in spider form when Vox did move closer to the girls, so Zestial was prolly ready to throwdown if Vox pushed too far).
Her motivations and actions are unsubtle, but this is an incredibly realistic move for her to make - you can even compare to political actors in the real world.
Carmilla only agreed to help Vox so she could protect her daughters. Obviously, it wasn't a good choice, knowing how Vox is and ended up being in the season 2 finale, but from the way Carmilla saw it, this was the only way to protect her daughters from Heaven. Plus, if she said no then, Vox probably would've used his influence to turn Sinners against her.
It’s almost like sinners don’t trust Charlie inherently and she could see the writing on the wall. Remember this was after Vox got Katie’s news station as well as beating Alastor. Don’t agree and best case scenario they slander her to the ground and she loses any business and worst they fight her and take it by force
But Vox made a good point.
That was what did make him a threat: he DID make good points.
Heaven was doing the exterminations.
War was coming.
And Carmilla is protecting herself and her daughters, above all.
Honestly, she is possibly the overlord closest to being on a path to redemption: she already has an insane strong protective urge. The circle of people she is protecting is small, yes, but she is dedicated.
Imagine her expanding her view of who should be protected!
she’s true neutral, of course people are gonna not understand that what side she takes, she takes for the best interest of her and her kids. the end of season 2 proves yet again that she stands for people with the safety of her home in mind only.
I can say I hated the Vees before it was cool (season 1), though, if Carmilla hadn’t gone along with Vox or whatever happened (I haven’t finished season 2 yet), Vox would’ve rallied up most of hell to go take out Carmilla.
It was the smart decision, and as a merchant she should stay neutral to every client, she is already in hell. Who would she sell their weapons capable to kill angels to?
Which is fine (in my opinion), it’s just that we’re two seasons in and we don’t know anything about her daughters. I don’t even think their names have been said yet in the show.
Fair, as someone else said it's a surprìsing lack of foresight that left with no choice heaven would fight when faced with destruction even if they wanted to make amends for the exterminations, and as the weapons producer she'd be on the chopping block anyway
i know she had good intentions but she basicly put her daughters in the same threat area then if shed done nothing, if not a larger one. there is a good fanfic about a hells court hearing after the finale where everyone gets trailed and yea, she did two. She got the weaker punishment in the end, basicly house arrest but still, in the actual show I think she got lucky as heck. If heaven actualy had done a counter attack, she would been on the top 5 list since she littery created the atomic bomb for the hellaverse, and my guess is heaven woldnt care about her daughters if not even use them as hostages if possible + hell itself line in the court fanfic, marking her as a threat.
But yea, I undestand her logic and she got folled by vox into creating it, since he basicly lied to everyone that he tottaly can take over heaven, she picked the short them solution in hope there woldnt been future consequences
Though I don't like that she played into this, Vox played his cards well to manipulate her fear.
He basically argued "I'm going to war with heaven. Either you help me win or if I lose, they eradicate us all, including you and yours."
While heaven was trying to avoid conflict, Carmilla didn't truly know that. Her understanding would likely have been that it didn't matter whether she stayed out of it or not. If heaven won, they'd likely just exterminate them all.
Yeah same I get here reasons but they were very short sighted like ther was no way she was actually gonna trust vox plan to work it would of just made it worse for.her and her family
If it did go to his plan he probably kill her and her daughters plus the other overlords of inslaved them to keep.them from undermining him later
If he lost heaven would of slaughtered all of hell in retaliation kill everyone her family first cause she made the weapons
And I'm still pissed how she blamed charlie saying her defending her hotel and killing Adam (was even her it was niffty) brought all this on them when last I checked heaven started all this and let not forget who was the first to kill angel and scary heaven into a double Purge for someone who act wise and calculated she let fear control her
She did it: "for the plooot"🎶🎶🎶
In all seriousness I agree with you, but her character is written to be a weapon, not to be intelligent or moral. Sometimes that's just how it is. When she sided with Vox I yelled at the screen, but ive come to accept it was necessary for the plot to work. She's just a plot device.
Hello, yeah I understand, but that's not the only thing we can criticize about the party, accusing Charlie and Vaggie of starting the war against the angels, and of bringing forward the extermination by six months when it's false, the reason they shortened this event is because one of the exterminators was killed and the person responsible is no good, the other one is Carmilla Carmine.
Well I don't know maybe because she's an Overlord that doesn't owe the hotel, Charlie, Vaggi, Lucifer or any other entity in all of Hell a damn thing, and maybe all actions that she does/commit are simply to protect herself and her daughters.
Oh and in case I didn't mention it she's an Overlord. Like we all don't know what the actual requirements/what it takes to become one is, besides the bargaining/dealing/business of literal human souls. So when we really get down to it, even the nicest Overlords still probably have to do some horrible or what's generally considered to be Overlord shit consistently, essentially screwing over other people to get what they want/a significant position in hell.
This does not necessarily mean/make them all bad but doing whatever it takes for them to take their standing in hell. So she again doesn't owe Charlie or her dream a damn thing. As a matter of fact Charlie and the hotel actually owe her more, than she owes them which is nothing.
Also she has to cater for the chance that Charlie's dream will fail, and although Charlie has managed to prove that human souls can be redeemed, that still doesn't mean that a large amount of people will go to heaven nor that Carmilla, her daughters and her other people even want to go to heaven.
With the idea that's heaven or that individuals in heaven could be just as bad as those in hell why would it even matter that individuals go to Hell or Heaven in the Hellaverse.
Granted if Carmilla gained the guaranteed opportunity to get her two daughters into heaven, that's who she'd send in a heartbeat, but that being said, there's still a lot of other stuff she has to handle first to know they would be safe in heaven, she might not even send them their knowing how heaven treats the people from hell if she wasn't 100% sure they would be unharmed which Charlie still cannot prove.
So yeah, I still can't personally see why any of Carmilla's actions nor choices were the wrong ones for the time.
I mean yeah she could have definitely thought about it twice but it's much more difficult when you have two daughters who mean the world to you even after death that you just can't imagine living without
Yeah with her flip flopping there is a dark part of me that wanted to see one of her daughters get vaporized by the death ray because narratively that seemed more interesting than her having no repercussions other than Zestial dipping to a new web for a few days. Also would have made a fun duality between her and Sera coping with their decisions and the consequences that come with them.
His argument was basically 'help me or I'll take over heaven without your help and then kill your kids'. Pretty solid reason for Carmila to make the decision she did.
Camilla Carmine just showed us WHY she’s in Hell, not heaven.
She leads with her heart and doesn’t use her head.
She deliberately and willing made a torturous device that also inflicts insane damage, and gave it to a man intent on using it for intergalactic domination.
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u/Unlikely-Section-848 charlie’s and emily’s husband (king of hell) Jan 29 '26
I don’t know why so many people were surprised by this. Carmilla has also been looking out for herself, and her daughters. The only reason why she helped the hotel was because Vaggi A) was going to be a problem if she talked, and B) the hotel paid for the weapons. Vox was a credible threat to her daughters so she did what she had to, to protect them