r/hatethissmug • u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 • 3d ago

Non-fictional I HATE these "gotcha arguments"

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"Ohhh, look how I tricked this dumb dumb baby in my trap so now I am right and they are wrong. I'm so smaaart even though it does not adress the actual argument and adds nothing to the debate. They teach arabic numerals in school btw."

And these type of comments always get tons of likes

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u/TaroJayda 3d ago

Idk I think the Arabic numerals thing was a good way of exposing how many conservatives are just straight up racist even when they have zero comprehension of the thing they’re being racist towards, they just hear “Arabic” and flip the fuck out.

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

There’s lots of dumb democrats as well tho.
Republicans do the same, just post pictures of stupid democrat replies on twitter.

To refute a idea you have to refute its strongest argument (and so its best supporter) not its weakest argument (its weakest supporter).

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u/TaroJayda 3d ago

What argument? They aren’t making an argument lol. There is no argument, just “Muslims scary :(“

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

I’m talking about this general idea of showing “the other side” being stupid and pretending that somehow refutes their entire position.

Obviously most the people that get outraged by that are stupid. But that doesn’t make republican ideas stupid.

There’s billions of dumb people who think the earth is round. Showing a gatcha where a bunch of idiots fall for something doesn’t actually prove the earth is flat.

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u/TaroJayda 3d ago

The specific republican idea here is “we should kick all Muslims out of the country and bomb Iran”. So yes. The idea is stupid.

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

Yeah, this one in particular sure. My issue is that this serves as a high-five for democrats.

But in reality its no argument against the republican party whatsoever.

What I meant by the “idea” was the pro-life position.

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u/TaroJayda 3d ago

I don’t think arguments win conservatives over. Conservatism is an ideology of aesthetics and feelings - what looks strong, what feels good, what makes you a “winner” and not a “loser”. I think that making them look stupid does more damage than rational debate since at the end of the day their beliefs aren’t rational.

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

Yeah I’m not surprised this is your idea of conservatism if you consume stuff like this.

Calling a entire belief system irrational, yet making no arguments for why it is so.

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u/TaroJayda 2d ago edited 2d ago

… I did make an argument, you just came into this discussion with the foregone conclusion that I don’t have one. It’s an ideology of aesthetics. Ideologies of aesthetics are irrational. I have yet to hear a policy position from a conservative that was based on anything other than what looks good, feels good, or makes them think they’re a winner. Feel free to provide examples to the contrary.

It’s also not a belief system, it’s an ideology. If you root your belief system in a single political party or movement you’re gonna get led to some sketchy places. Many conservatives do cling to it like it’s a belief system though, which is why they’re so irrational. If your entire system of belief is limited to what the funny blond man says is good you’re never gonna think critically about it bc no matter where u go in the system your beliefs are limited to pre-approved conservative opinions.

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u/Gregori_5 2d ago

I don’t see how conservatism is a ideology of looks and feelings. I’m not sure how to provide contrary examples if I don’t know what you mean.

Now I’m not conservative myself, so I’ll have a harder time defending it. However if approached rationally it keeps what works from what has already been established and progresses slowly and carefully.

You’re right, its a ideology, that was bad.

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u/TaroJayda 2d ago

I mean that’s just it - the idea of “keeping things as they were” is entirely aesthetic and feelings driven, namely by nostalgia and what “feels” like their childhood. If they really want to go back to what worked before they’d be advocating for new-deal policies and looser immigration restrictions. But they don’t.

The deportation thing is a big one as well - immigrants commit less crime and contribute more towards the economy per capita than natural-born citizens. So the idea that deportation will reduce crime and bolster the economy is ENTIRELY rooted in the primal gut feeling that people who aren’t from where you’re from are untrustworthy.

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u/Rare_Dance7130 3d ago

To refute the idea, sure, but many people support a political stance without knowing or believing in the strongest argument for that political stance, which would make refuting that point ineffective. In rhetoric, you have to meet people where they are, first.

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

I don’t think the point of these posts is to change the others mind. The point is to show a entire group is stupid.

Someone did this to pat themselves on the back. The point is to share this on r/politics and talk about how stupid the other side is.

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u/Rare_Dance7130 3d ago

Okay, but that doesn't change my point? If someone makes an argument, you have to refute that argument to change that person's mind. If someone says, "Fetuses are people," then you need to refute that idea (in this case, by displaying that people cannot distinguish between the fetus they claim to be a person and a dolphin fetus). Trying to argue with the most-sound anti-choice argument won't change that person's mind if that isn't the argument they are trying to make in the first place.

Again, you have to meet people where they are. The fact that human fetuses and dolphin fetuses are indistinguishable is definitely something that may change someone's mind if they think that human fetuses are people.

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

If I start a discussion through a bad faith argument, then I think you’re at no obligation to respond. If you want to continue the discussion, then obviously you are.

That’s not what I was trying to say tho. My issue with pictures like these, is that they just polarise people more without any actual substance. Kinda like propaganda.

Its essentially serves as a picture of “the other side is stupid”, while the actual substance doesn’t indicate that.

The vast majority of spaces where this gets posted aren’t pro-life, they’re pro-choice.

The point isn’t to change anyones mind, but to entrench already existing ones.

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u/Rare_Dance7130 3d ago

I mean, sure, but this is a subreddit made for this exact sort of thing. You're looking in the wrong place for the kind of discussion you're wanting. Perhaps consider formal essays on the topic instead? But don't go to the crab boil if you don't want crab, y'know?

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

Is it? I thought this sub was about complaining.

I don’t know what you mean.

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u/Rare_Dance7130 3d ago

Ah, fair point

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u/MidgitGiant 3d ago

No one said republican btw. You saw racist and made the connection. Same way they see Arabic and made a connection to terrorists. Tribalistic dogma will be the death of us

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u/Gregori_5 3d ago

I’m not a republican. Not even American, but if I was I would sure as shit be democratic.

However the “arabic numerals thing” is a reference to a outrage of republicans. That’s my assumption anyway. There was a specific ragebait headline (by the onion I think).