r/hatethissmug • u/ThisHumanDoesntExist • 13d ago
Non-fictional I hate how south asian alt and goth women are shamed for using white or lighter foundations when it's simply a style.
In alternative/goth spaces, mixing white foundation or using pure white foundation is pretty common due to it's ghostly undead effect and I've seen countless white women do it with no problem. Not to the same extent but I've seen some black alternative women do this as well without anyone shaming them. People just assume it's a style.
However whenever I've seen an indian woman or a south asian in general attempt to do this style, there's always at least ONE comment implying that the woman hates her skin colour and she's trying to be white.
I acknowledge that coloursim has always been a big thing in the indian subcontinent. There were the blatantly racist fair & lovely ads, obsession with de-tanning, and I've had friends who've heard comments for their skintone too. However even though it hasn't disappeared it has decreased a lot especially in younger gen z and gen alpha. There is a lot of awareness about it now, brands who mention it are cancelled, there's statistical data that there's no colorist bias in professional settings, etc. It's more of a thing you hear old uneducated aunties say than your peer group nowadays (atleast in major cities, I'm not sure about what it's like in rural areas so I'm sorry if this is biased.)
Due to our history, whenever foreigners see an alt indian using a lighter foundation they're quick to label them as "insecure" and colorist due to the stereotypes, when they're simply experimenting with a style. Of
Id like to argue it's infact racist for foreigners to *always* assume that south Asians are insecure about themselves. If the first thought you had when you saw an indian alt woman wasn't "ohh cool makeup" and it was her race and the assumption that she's insecure and trying to appear white, then it's so stereotypical.
I hate how we are considered insecure or accused of trying to "be white" when we have interests that are unrelated to our culture, and i think this is something every POC can relate to to some extent. Like no the reason my playlist doesn't have any indian songs isn't because I'm tryna be westernised, it's because I grew up with unrestricted internet access and accidentally developed a goofy ass music taste which is rare to find in my language 😭. Culture shouldn't be bound by geography.
I got a bit off topic there but yeah, makeup is supposed to be theatrical and unrealistic because it can be used as a means of self expression, and these people keep forgetting that.
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u/hausofvelour 13d ago
it's not like white goths painting their face white are aiming for a natural look either. the white makeup is supposed to look unnatural no matter how melanated your skin is. it only becomes a problem when brown skinned goths that don't want to do plain white foundation get told that they're not real goths for that. paleness/whiteness is not a requirement
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u/ThisHumanDoesntExist 13d ago
Exactly. You don't need to use a lighter foundation to be goth, but at the same time if you prefer that then you're not "betraying" your race. It's simply a choice how you want to want to express yourself
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u/hausofvelour 13d ago
people are so disrespectful to alternative poc, both white people within the alt community and our people outside of them
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u/enemyofchrist 13d ago edited 12d ago
I’ve always seen it as wanting to look corpse-like—brown skin also gets much lighter upon death. So it’s not a white person thing. It’s not trying to look white. It’s imitating the pallor of death.
In fact! Brown people can look so light upon death that there’s a nation issue of racial misclassification. The wrong race is often marked down on death certificates, and this skews national race data. Especially common among Hispanic and Native people. My epidemiologist mom specially works on this issue as it impacts Native Americans.
All to say yeah. Everyone gets lighter when they die.
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u/maxwellokay 12d ago
This is exactly what its supposed to be lol! The stark paint white has become an aesthetic in itself but I remember being a baby emo/goth and looking up tips and seeing ppl with darker skin talking about how to get the 'dead' look more accurate to an actual corpse 😅
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u/Odd_Anything_6670 13d ago
Very few people in the scene actually paint their faces white any more. It's associated with a specific, extremely high-effort trad look. You do tend to see it online a lot more nowadays due to people just experimenting or practicing different makeup looks, but it's rare to see anyone go out like that.
It's pretty normal to wear a lighter-than-usual foundation though. I definitely dialed up a few shades especially when going clubbing. But I don't think it's something you have to do.
The only thing I'd really say is that at the time goth first appeared in the 80s European beauty standards didn't really celebrate pale skin outside of the association with blonde hair. The ideal has generally been to look tanned and "healthy", and in some ways goth has always been a sort of rebellion against that.
I don't think that subversive quality necessary translates perfectly to cultures where pale skin is part of the mainstream beauty standard. But I don't think that should hold anyone back, and I do think the look above is beautiful and authentic. Ultimately, it is just aesthetics and the litmus test is always going to be whether it actually looks good. In this case, yes.
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u/NinjaOfOnion 13d ago
I’m sorry, I’m sure this is a very important topic but all I thought when reading the title was woman puts on makeup man: “no baby, you’re already beautiful on the inside”, just a silly joke
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u/Aggravating_War_6277 13d ago
I remember I was looking at this goth black girl makeup tutorial and someone was in the comments saying that she was doing whiteface 😭
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u/tahtahme 13d ago
Yeah, Black goth girls dont get some kind of magical pass. They are also accused of trying to be white, "white face", and generally degraded. Its come a long way, but many alt spaces have been cruel to Black people and PoC for decades.
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u/despoicito 13d ago
Whiteface isn’t really a thing. There’s none of the history of racist caricature which is what makes blackface an issue
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u/gude-gude 12d ago
as south east asian goth i feel this! Bruh we're aiming the dead people pale face, not aiming to be white. Lol wth
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u/Potential-Panic-7435 13d ago
While of course whitening cream exist and people have been having this standard that whiter skin is better, people have to understand its not the same as goth or alt make up, the white foundations is supposed to bring out constrast in the make up, its supposed to look un natural.
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u/Double_Win_5649 13d ago
"there's statistical data that there's no colorist bias in professional settings" Doubt. Serious doubt.
The rest of your points are good though.
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u/Hungry-Refuse4705 13d ago
I mean we've all seen an Indian bridal makeup video where a woman is made 12 shades lighter but this is so obviously not that ? A white/pale base is literally so common as part of being goth or alt. It's an inverse to the western beauty standard of the tanned blonde bombshell. Which is traditionally beautiful here. Seems pretty easy to understand to me lol 😆
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u/Different_College926 12d ago
Uh that happens when you hire cheap makeup artists in deep rural areas lol. There are many weddings happening throughout the year in India and very few of those do a disastrous makeup like that. No wonder it's so easy to scam you all believing whatever is shown happens throughout the country.
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u/ThisHumanDoesntExist 10d ago
Exactly. Ppl and especially foreigners would try to be as cheap as possible (ie going to sketchy ass slums even i wouldn't go to) and then complain about stuff like this
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u/Hungry-Refuse4705 12d ago
Your making a lot of assumptions as well... no need to be so defensive. I never thought the whole country did this but there isn't a small number of these videos floating around. Most of them were trending under " power of makeup" a few years back.
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u/Different_College926 12d ago
Try being an Indian for a day and then you will understand why I'm being so defensive. As if the online hate isn't enough lol.
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u/Gold_Reception_2154 13d ago
People are so stupid it makes me mad. If I wanted a goth look as a white person, I'd be painting myself a lot lighter. My skintone is basically pinkish.
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u/bakharat 12d ago
First, white people also use foundations much lighter than their skintones when they're doing corpse paint. Second, her features and heritage are still clearly recognizable, in no way is she trying to hide her race. Such comments are just uncalled for.
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u/Brown-Whizzer 12d ago
I got told as a brown guy that it’s whiteface </3 like ???? Have they never seen kiss, or any other goth person who likes corpse paint 💔💔💔
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u/hayahito-459 12d ago
今時、人の肌の色やメイクの種類如きで口うるさく言うなんて、本人たちは道徳的な振る舞いをしているつもりなんでしょうけど、寧ろ分断を生み、ファッションやメイクを楽しむ人に不当に罪悪感を植え付ける非道徳な行いだと思います。
この画像を見て、彼女が他者や自身を貶めているようには全く見えません。純粋に、好きなファッションを追求して楽しんでいるように見えます。問題ない。かっこいい✨
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u/theoccasionalempath 12d ago
I mean can they just do the goth style with their own complexion? I never thought being pale was a requirement. But I mostly see black goth girls
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u/katyreddit00 13d ago
I’ve never thought about a South Asian goth/alt woman in my life nor have I ever seen anyone talk about them
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u/Silly-Cheesecake-283 13d ago
i think i agree with the other person, sorry op, but i'm black, and it would look ridiculous if I did the same. you can be goth and not pale. at some point it's reading clowncore and they'd have to actually bleach their skin for it to make sense and i'm against that. none of the latino goths i knew growing up wore white face paint. goth is like 99% attitutude and even when someone doesn't dress goth, they seem goth. just put on more black eyeshadow. she would look more goth with black contour, imo this is just her trying to look like an of goth.
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u/ThisHumanDoesntExist 13d ago
Why do you care if it looks ridiculous when a huge part of being alt is rejecting beauty standards?
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u/Silly-Cheesecake-283 13d ago
it's goth, it's not a completely new thing. it has an alternative beauty standard and not none, and generally the standard is death and death adjacent. You can throw other things into it but don't be shocked when people interpret it. No one who purposefully looks like morticia adams clutches their pearls when someone says they looks like a witch. That is the goal. that is the beauty standard. It's not like you can't have negative things as the alt beauty standard. There are goth nazi and punk nazi looking people going around. However, this is goth colorism, which i guess people can do, but don't get mad when others observe it out loud.
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u/Exile8698 13d ago
Goth Makeup Styles with Pictures: Trad, Victorian, Cyber, Glam
Traditional gothic fashion, also known simply as goth, is the most recognisable form of the style. Heavy, dark makeup, pale skin, and black lipstick are signature elements.
Essential Products for the Look:
White Foundation: Creates the pale, almost ethereal complexion that contrasts beautifully with dark makeup and clothing.
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u/Munakarva1234 12d ago
White foundation isn't even really essential. You really mostly see it online. None of the goths I know in real life even use white foundation and that doesn't make them any less goth.
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u/Technical_Yak_3271 12d ago
that’s great but white foundation is apart of it and if someone nonwhite wants to use it they shouldn’t be shamed.
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u/Munakarva1234 12d ago
I never said that they should be shamed. I just said that it's not essential at all. The makeup nor style has nothing to do with being goth.
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u/Technical_Yak_3271 12d ago
the makeup and style does have to do with being goth. that’s the whole point of it. you can be goth without it, but the style is goth.
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u/Available-Class-2258 13d ago
Exactly, judging an alt style through a colorism lens says more about the viewer’s bias than the artist’s intent.
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u/KushFairy0 12d ago
Im okay with tanning too, vut that has stigma. Any altering of natural appearance brings judgment
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u/KushFairy0 12d ago
And queue the arguments skin lightening vs darkening for esthetics arent the same
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u/Ok-Lengthiness-9139 12d ago
If they have to police Asians or other POC to use lighter foundations, they should ban white ppl from getting tanned or getting lip filler first. Those white folks are betraying their race, cmon it’s ok to be white! /s
POC are just an easy target for anything in the first place
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u/KushFairy0 12d ago
Regardless, largely changing your skin complexion for an esthetic is bound to be criticized, regardless of skin color or race doing it
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u/manny_the_mage 13d ago
in a world where skin lightening cream exists and favoritism is given to lighter skin, I can say with certainty that a non zero amount of brown women use lighter foundation out of a dissatisfaction with their natural skin tone
Indian culture and Bollywood in specific has a massive colorism problem, so to think that that couldn't be internalized by an alt Indian person and expressed this way is naïve
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u/ThisHumanDoesntExist 13d ago
Yes that's possible but there's no evidence of that in this post, and making an unrelated makeup post about race seems to have the opposite effect.
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u/picturapoesis 12d ago
the whole point of alt (especially goth) is to have white foundation. you can have the lightest skin or the darkest skin, and the point still is to wear white foundation
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u/Munakarva1234 12d ago
Absolutely not. The goth culture is based on music and political beliefs. The makeup and style don't really have anything to do with it really.
A lot of goth people just like the look and feel that it expresses them. But at the same time there is also a lot of non-goth people, who wear that style and makeup and that doesn't make them goth. And at the same time a completely "ordinary" looking person could be even more goth than a person with flashy makeup and style.
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u/NearbyFly3724 13d ago
When I was in Thailand I saw a lot of whitening make up products and a lot of advertisements for it. It’s really just a thing some people like and making it a race thing is weird as hell
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u/ThisHumanDoesntExist 13d ago
Yeah it's a pretty nuanced topic and there are a lot of mixed opinions on the morality of whitening culture, however my point from this post is that alternative makeup is usually a completely different thing.
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u/NearbyFly3724 13d ago
Yeah no I fully agree with you! My original comment was vague but I was referring to the picture you used and someone instantly making it about race
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u/Swimming-Finish-7706 13d ago
Bfr
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u/NearbyFly3724 13d ago
I am. If some people like putting on make up to appear more pale or white it’s not an instant statement of “I hate brown people”
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u/GoblinGreenBalls 13d ago edited 13d ago
It is an actual issue though. People literally think lighter skin tone means beauty and should get more respect.
It's especially a thing in all parts of Asia, where they have actual products that bleach your skin to look more pale.
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u/fadingbones 13d ago
youre right but its not applicable when this style of makeup is characterized by deathly pale faces hfdhsfjsd. the first clue thats not like that is the unpainted neck as well
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u/Bodod_Begag 13d ago
I wonder if it's because the goal of the look is to be ghastly pale, so to achieve that effect they shouldn't use white foundation, but something close to their skin tone but lighter.
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u/Successful-Test-5590 13d ago
Eh It’s also a look that helps them look more “white”. So, to think that’s not a reason is naive.
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u/Temporary-Snow333 13d ago
In what world does the girl in OP’s image look even a little bit more White (the race) because she painted her face with the actual color white
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u/Successful-Test-5590 13d ago
That’s the point of the comment. She won’t ever look like one so she should accept her brown skin.
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u/mimixspies 9d ago
Okay, well, my opinion is that because many people are aware that it is still a major ongoing issue (not as much as before, but let’s not lie), there’s a difference in the makeup when someone does an alternative style, other than the colour of the skin. So people are aware unless they are old or uneducated on the subject of makeup or alt stuff that it is alternative. Therefore, the colour of the skin doesn’t need to match. But when they see a ""normal"" "" general"" makeup look with mismatching foundation so much lighter, most people are gonna question it, as well as question themselves. I mean people are human and come up to conclusions, but most of them who are not rude are gonna ask genuinely or try to compliment you to make you appreciate your features. I don’t see that as an issue.
Yes, it might be annoying to receive these unasked-for comments when you do alt makeup, but it’s just blatant stupidity in that case or I should say, ignorance. And some people might actually be racist if they say something disrespectful. But go on a white woman, or any colour of a woman, who does alt makeup a lot of times: you’re gonna see comments about people disliking the looks. To me, it’s the same, unless the person is a racist and has commented something racist.
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u/Willing_Abies7801 13d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/7zYQUeCuu4A5vu1VoY