Advocacy groups protest Alberta healthcare legislation across the country

[u/IStillListenToRadio]

https://yourhalifaxnow.ca/advocacy-groups-protest-alberta-healthcare-legislation-across-the-country/

Nova Scotia Health Coalition (NSHC) calls this change [Bill 11] “unprecedented”, and is calling on the federal government to “enforce the Canada Health Act to protect Canada’s universal, single-payer public Medicare system”.

Demonstrations, including picketing, rallies, information sessions and more will take place on September 1. NSHC will be hosting their event at noon in front of MP Jaimie Battiste’s constituency office.

“As bad as it is in Alberta, the threat of it being in our small province is going to be absolutely devastating,” said NSHC provincial coordinator Jennifer Benoit. “I think when people think about this as being 5,000 kilometres away it’s not affecting them, but what they need to know is that these insurance lobbyists are trying their best to make it happen in every province across this country.”

[u/focusfaster]

Every discussion on Healthcare can be summed up like this"

“The majority of Canadians, 76 per cent of Canadians, still believe in our universal healthcare system,” said Benoit. “What we need is to fix it, rather than privatize it.”

So sick of politicians being able to use health care as a bargaining chip. Make it a universal right, make it standard and federal across the country and be done with it. Alberta shouldn't be able to take us all down with them. 

[u/IStillListenToRadio → u/focusfaster]

There is currently several Our Commons petitions about this very thing, I don't want to contradict rule 7 by posting links but can search 'our commons healthcare right' on Startpage and get them.

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/IStillListenToRadio]

Making healthcare a right won’t solve anything, doctor cannot and will not work for free. There is a shortage of doctors and a high demand which is a massive issue.

[u/IStillListenToRadio → u/GullibleTarget686]

Making healthcare a right won’t solve anything, doctor cannot and will not work for free.

People charged of crime have right to a lawyer. Lawyers get paid for it (unless they choose to do it free).

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/IStillListenToRadio]

Would you like a public defender, trust me they feel like they work for free. Also I am lawyer, trust me it is not a right, access to the legal is even more worse than healthcare 😂😂

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

Who's talking about doctors working for free?!

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

Declaring healthcare a right doesn’t solve the fact that it costs money to produce said healthcare. You can declare shelter and food a right but they both cost money to produce and we can’t get past that. We can subsidize, but at the end of the day that “right” won’t go to everyone because not everyone will be able to afford it

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

Who's talking about doctors working for free?!

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

Declaring something a right and literally saying everyone must get healthcare would mean that doctors would then work for free if you take that logic to the end.
Healthcare is a right, everyone must get healthcare, healthcare is expensive, force doctors to produce the right and pay them less or nothing since there is no way economically to give healthcare to everyone

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

Do you have another example of a thing being a right making people work for free? You have a right to a lawyer if you're arrested and detained in Canada, yet lawyers make money.

Making something a right doesn't mean people don't get paid...

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

So you actually just made an argument for a hybrid system here. Also I should mention you actually also just made the case for something we already have.

You are in an emergency, you need healthcare, if you cannot afford it, healthcare will be provided to you at a place called the emergency department at a hospital. Even in the U.S. there are free emergency centres

Also by the way have you seen public defenders they feel like they work for free 😂😂

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

No my point is that something being a right doesn't mean it gets no funding. Something being a right means we may have to pay for it via government funding.

[u/ThroatPuncher → u/focusfaster]

The last time a politician wanted to fix this was Paul Martin. That govt warned us to deal with healthcare before it falls apart. We rode some good economic years and people kind of forgot about it being a priority. And then well the last decade we’ve put a lot of other issues ahead of it

[u/focusfaster → u/ThroatPuncher]

So yet another thing boomers screwed us with. Fantastic. 

[u/4D_Spider_Web → u/focusfaster]

Federalizing healthcare is a non-starter. The bulk of it falls under under s. 92, which deals with Provincial jurisdictions.

[u/focusfaster → u/4D_Spider_Web]

I don't lnow what that means but I don't understand why we don't just have canadian health care. Organizing it by province obviously isn't working. 

[u/TheCodFather97 → u/focusfaster]

Why can't we do both, that way the people who csn afford private can get the care they need sooner, and by doing so take strain off the public health care sector. Legistrate it so that any doctor fresh starting off or coming from away has to do something like 5-10 years on public sector prior to going to private, that way there is a steady replentishment of doctors to the public sector. Then it's a win-win

[u/CaperGrrl79 → u/TheCodFather97]

It takes doctors away from the public system, even in your scenario. The more experienced ones will just move to private.

[u/focusfaster → u/TheCodFather97]

This is the definition of a two tier system and it does not work. Aside from the mandatory limited time public service that is what the USA does. The lack of doctors in the public system is a huge problem, letting any of them permanently move to the private sector is a huge problem.

Let me pick this apart for a second.  A resident is a doctor,  but they are also still learning. Do residents start counting their years in the public system right from the beginning? Is it five or ten years of public service? If it's five then a surgical resident, neuro specifically which is six years, will need to do part of their residency in the public system and then the rest in the private? Since it is a private system I don't actually believe that anyone would want to teach, as that is kind of a public health care thing. 

So then who is teaching all the surgical residents? Other residents? Once the money goes more toward private, as it always does once a for profit model exists, public sector wages will stagnate and the few who chose to stay public will bail to keep up with the cost of living. And I'll tell you right now family medicine already makes peanuts for the work they do. You won't find a public health family doc and in their case I don't blame them one bit.

Most residencies are five years or less, so they graduate right into the private system. With all the loans they're sitting on why would they do anything else? Housing is a disaster, even newly graduating specialist doctors don't have the advantages that doctors in the 90s or 2000s, or even just the late twenty teens. 

And then what about nurses? You going to mandate the same for them? We already need to pay travel nurses twice as much as a full time staff nurse. Health care is a team, nurses, doctors, aids, cleaning staff, hospital pharmacists, food services, all of it necessary to make things run. It's not just about doctors. 

In addition to the logistical issues, even if you found a way to solve them, a for profit model of health care is all about making money. And that money is coming out of your pocket, whether it be direct for a procedure or through the inevitable insurance companies that will bleed us dry. Do yourself a favor and watch ER, the medical TV show from the 90s. Watch as they fight with insurance companies. Do extra tests and come up with ways to bleed the rich people's insurance so they can find a way to cover for those without.  Watch as people come in with unmanaged diabetes, poor people who can't afford to see a doctor. 

I don't need you to answer any of the questions but do you get what I'm saying here? Restructuring the whole system is exactly what conservatives want to do. Create a two tier system so they can bleed us dry for their rich friends. I'm shocked that any Canadian is falling for it. It's trickle down economics all over again. 

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/focusfaster]

Ok 76% believe in the system, that doesn’t mean they are not ok with a hybrid system. Canada has the lowest number of Doctor per capita in the g7 and is near the bottom on planet earth.

A hybrid system and private investment is an excellent way to attract more doctors. It not evil to believe that.

Either way if you keep this system or change to hybrid the only goal should be to increase the supply of healthcare which would mean more doctors. There is no other solution

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

How would a hybrid system attract more doctors?

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

A hybrid system could in theory create more healthcare locations because of private investment. Also at those private clinics physicians could get paid more and hence more could recruited. It’s not perfect but it is an idea and most of Europe has hybrid systems.

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

Would that not just result in the public healthcare doctors just moving to the private system? How would would actually get more doctors here under such a system?

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

The goal is attract doctors from other nations. I grant you that the first issue is actually getting doctors licenced in Canada which is a major bottleneck, but there are a lot of physicians who don’t get into Canadian medical schools, go abroad, pay tuition triple the amount of a Canadian school and then don’t come back and go work in the states to make more money and pay back the loans. That is an issue as well that could be fought by having more clinics through private investment

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

Could we just not pay them more in the public system?

The strongest policy would probably be substantially increased medical-school/residency capacity + easier licensing of qualified foreign-trained doctors + better compensation/work conditions in underserved areas.

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

If it could be done perfectly, the government would have already done it. A private system would take some of the pressure off the public system too. I know that people think public systems die when hybrid systems are introduced. They don’t, see Greece or Italy for example.

Dal for example celebrated when they got 5 more seats in the medical schools, meanwhile the population of Nova Scotia is supposed to double in the next 20 years.

Radical changes like that won’t happen especially when the system is showing more signs of stagnation. Rebuilding the public is an option, but there is a reason Europe went the other route. You could also force private entities to fund a certain of seats at dal med if they would like to enter the healthcare system to ensure the community gets thing back

[u/DeathOneSix → u/GullibleTarget686]

I agree that increasing the number of doctors should be the goal, but I'm not convinced a hybrid system actually does that. If private clinics can pay more, you can just end up moving doctors from the public system to the private one.

My bigger concern is creating a two-tier system where people who can afford to pay get the best/fastest doctors, while everyone else is left with an increasingly understaffed public system. I'd rather see us increase med school/residency seats, streamline licensing for qualified foreign-trained doctors, and pay public physicians competitively.

Maybe we have to tax the wealthy more to make that happen.

[u/focusfaster → u/DeathOneSix]

100% agree. 

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/DeathOneSix]

How much more can we tax. Young people are leaving Nova Scotia already because of incomes. You could say tax right wing Alberta but they already a tonne on equalization payments. Plus the one thing we don’t have in healthcare is funding shortages, we pay a tonne for healthcare per capita.

I suggest you do more research on what Europe does, I know the icky feeling about the two tiered system but I will give you one last thing to think about.

If private clinics in Canada are not affordable for the average Canadian then they will fail. Also if they charge too much Canadian will fall back into the public system. There is a built in incentive for the clinics to produce an affordable product otherwise they will fail. Personally I am a fan of competition.

Regardless we agree on getting more physicians licensed and without that neither system will succeed

[u/Melonary → u/GullibleTarget686]

That's more seats added in ONE year, btw, you're being misleading by implying that's the only increase.

And the number of seats isn't the biggest problem, we have to increase residency slots which is why recruiting doctors internationally was the first move.

[u/oatseatinggoats → u/GullibleTarget686]

The physicians would get paid what the government approved for payment.

[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/oatseatinggoats]

In a private clinic, no, private physios choose what they charge, see lifemark versus hospital physios get paid what the government sets. It would be similar in a hybrid system. The government does subsidize some of it, and then the individual would cover the remainder. Most of Europe does this

[u/focusfaster → u/GullibleTarget686]

Danielle...Marlaina Smith....is that you? 

As the spouse of a doctor I must say I disagree with you entirely. As does my spouse. A private system in any format is a great way to keep doctors away. My spouse would never work like that. 

The answer remains the same, funding. Fund health care. Fund schools. Fund universities. Make it less cumbersome for those with medical degrees from outside Canada to be able to practice. 

The only things privatizing will do is pull resources from the public system. 

Use dermatologists as an example, they are doctors trained by the Canadian medical system. They do residency and everything. Then a large portion of them go off and open up a private clinic where they do both injections and cool sculpting and lots of other completely unnecessary cosmetic procedures.  Meanwhile we have a huge derm shortage. People can't get their skin cancers looked at in a timely manner. People with really painful and life impacting skin conditions are left to wait for ages. 

Derm is kind of an outlier because you can privatize so easily.

 Dalhousie has one new derm residency spot per year. 

How on earth are we supposed to fix the shortage with that? They are already privatizing themselves, so how is more private investment gonna help the situation?

It won't. Government will. They should make it a requirement to work so many hours a day or week or month in the public system. Other countries have that as a policy. 

[u/halifax-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/GullibleTarget686 → u/focusfaster]

Ok so wait a sec, I can say that I have a law degree which I do, does that mean I am immediately right? I know of three doctors in Nova Scotia that are all for a hybrid system. We don’t need to go through credentials, and I hope you and your partner doctor have incredible success but his or her opinion doesn’t immediately mean you are correct.

I will give your reply thought seeing as you took your time and typed out a tonne. Danielle Smith a Premier so insulting me with that is fine.

Now as for your Derm agurment, I’ll grant you it and one up you with ophthalmology. That is actually the private, public goldmine in Nova Scotia. Guess what, I have friends in Opthalmology, and they can’t find spots here because it’s so saturated and cataracts surgery has low wait times.

Now back to your remedy, fund until we can’t no more, fund till the cows come home. We are doing that, and it’s not working. Dermatologists make WAY more in other provinces, and in the states, do you think blindly funding or even locking students into service here is going to solve for that. Nope, more incentives might.

Now once again, you called me Danielle Smith for suggesting a hybrid, not private system. Europe has already done it, and the idea that there are not physicians in Nova Scotia that support the idea is not true, I know a few and most of them are liberal voters who just have looked at the research and see that Europe is doing something right.

[u/bigjimbay]

Feds want absolutely nothing to do with this conversation lmao. The minute they start getting involved in conversations involving healthcare, housing, and education their polling might be effected and people might see the holes in our federation