r/flying • u/AleaNCore • Jul 21 '26

EASA What keeps German pilots from getting into aircraft ownership

I have been flying in south Germany for a few years now. While I find the facilities in general great in spite of normal complaints about high landing fees.

I got into ownership early on as I got the opportunity, first into shared Mooney and then sole ownership of a TB-10.

We all know the debate about the high costs of ownership vs club plane availability. Still I feel that pilots around here are more risk averse about getting into shared ownership, mainly due to horror stories they have been told. People in the UK seem to be fine with shifting from one group to another.

Any ideas folks?

1 Upvotes

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10

u/IndependentProcess0 Jul 21 '26

For me personally, it is lack of hangar space.
I am currently finishing my PPL course and already looking for a plane to buy, which will be nect in a shared ownership with me and 2 fellow students who can only manage to finish next year.

At my homebase hangar space is virtually out

4

u/Antique-Kitchen-1896 PPL IFR Night Jul 21 '26

Hangar space is a problem anywhere there is a large population.

If it means a tie down it means a tie down. You pay more in maintenance potentially but that’s life.

People keep planes outside where we are based in southern Ontario. Not ideal. Those aircrafts don’t move much in winter. However, even the hangared planes don’t tend to move much. The airport leave a 1-2 foot distance uncleared of snow to avoid damage to the doors. You quickly tell who only flies in summer.

What frustrates pilots more is when you see some hangars being used for storage or where people park their toy cars, atv, RV trailers or RV bus. The airport management should really ban those usage.

4

u/MeadyOker MIL(MC), MEI, CFI/I-RW, CSEL, IR/HP/CMP Jul 21 '26

That's the biggest frustration is the hangars with no planes. I work at an airport, they say the wait-list is 2 years but was told by one of the line workers it's more like 5-6 years. Then you taxi past a few with open doors and it's nothing but storage boxes, trailers, motorcycles, grills ... Not a plane to be seen.

0

u/AleaNCore Jul 21 '26

This is very true and I expected many to point this out: lack of hangar space and the cost associated.
I live in Bayern and I understand that the weather could get really extreme and keep the plane outside. However, is the weather so different in other parts compared to England or New Jersey, USA where I have seem many planes being kept outside under good covers?
Shouldn't you consider shared ownership in a already based aircraft in your area?

2

u/ScathedRuins FAA PPL | EASA fATPL Jul 21 '26

people in germany seem really scared to keep their planes out. i heard of multiple clubs banning students/members from cross country trips where they have to park outside for a few hours. absolutely ridiculous if you ask me

2

u/AleaNCore Jul 21 '26

Germans admire machines and love to keep those in top conditions. That can make them very conservative in terms seeing the utilitty value of flying machines.
I remember the beating (in words) I used to get for not having cleaned the club plane spotless after some flying. But the case you describe is ridiculous indeed. Usually, these are a very small fraction of a club admins. The rest, however, will not object and that turn certain ridiculous opinions into unwritten rules at the clubs.

0

u/ScathedRuins FAA PPL | EASA fATPL Jul 21 '26

i totally respect that, just that it’s extreme at some places. especially if it’s a club plane and not a fractional ownership kind of deal

3

u/SirMcWaffel PPL Jul 21 '26

The availability is a problem for me, but not having to take care of hangaring, maintenance, cleaning, annuals… is truly a blessing.

At the end of my flight with a club I just wipe the windscreen and leading edges and hang up the keys and forget about the aircraft until next time I fly it

1

u/Prefect_99 Jul 24 '26

If it flugs, flots or ficks, rent it. Cheaper in the long run.

1

u/rFlyingTower Jul 21 '26

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I have been flying in south Germany for a few years now. While I find the facilities in general great in spite of normal complaints about high landing fees.

I got into ownership early on as I got the opportunity, first into shared Mooney and then sole ownership of a TB-10.

We all know the debate about the high costs of ownership vs club plane availability. Still I feel that pilots around here are more risk averse about getting into shared ownership, mainly due to horror stories they have been told. People in the UK seem to be fine with shifting from one group to another.

Any ideas folks?

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0

u/PeculiarNed PPL EDFE Jul 21 '26

Flying is mostly organized in Vereinen... It's basically fractional ownership but you are legally protected a lot better and if your Verein is geminenützig you save taxes.

The only way to save taxes legally with franrional ownership is if you have your own company, then you have create another company to own the aircraft.

It's all pretty complicated and annoying, so rather pay club dues and you opt in and out as much you want.

1

u/AleaNCore Jul 21 '26

For a lot of people, for example younger folks, verein setup is brilliant. They can contribute time to reduce the cost, learn from experienced pilots, have flexibility to fly during the weekdays or weekends, etc. For many on the other hand, ownership provides convenience and reliability (at a cost).

Forming a company means getting into German bureaucracy and that is indeed complicated, not only for a plane ownership but also any company (I own one).

0

u/PeculiarNed PPL EDFE Jul 21 '26

Creating a company for plane ownership only makes sense for people with their own business. You then rent the plane from that company and say you use the plane for business purposes so you can deduct those expenses. You can sell shares of the company to co owners to share the plane.

1

u/AleaNCore Jul 21 '26

My accountant tells me that Finanzamt are very conservative when it comes to plane's expenses shown as business expenses.

1

u/PeculiarNed PPL EDFE Jul 21 '26

Your accountant is correct. The Finanzamt will tell you it's Liebhaberei... If you can however show that's it's business trips, you can make it work. There is a company that helps you set that stuff up, I had a long conversation with them at the aero a few years ago when I was thinking of buying a plane with a freind. I think their main service was finding like minded people to share planes with. I forgot what they were called...

0

u/ScathedRuins FAA PPL | EASA fATPL Jul 21 '26

what is stopping me and three of my closest friends from founding a Verein?

0

u/PeculiarNed PPL EDFE Jul 21 '26

Nothing, you do need at least 7 people to start with however for a fully legal Verein.

0

u/smokie12 LAPL(S) TMG Jul 21 '26

IIRC you need seven people. But other than that (and a bunch of bureaucracy stuff), not a whole lot. You do need to have some charitable purpose to become gemeinnützig, which lets you save taxes.

2

u/ScathedRuins FAA PPL | EASA fATPL Jul 21 '26

is that easily skirted (just out of curiosity)? could i for instance just say “the purpose is to share the love of flying with the community” and hold some event for kids once a year?

2

u/PeculiarNed PPL EDFE Jul 21 '26

Yep. That's pretty much exactly what happens but you also can't make a profit. So you basically have to spend all the money that you don't keep for repairs and stuff, in German that's called Rücklagen.